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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/7/2008 12:33:30 AM
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theredhog
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whisperingwaters,
quote:
I agree that hell isn't eternal also but that is because I know it will be thrown into the Lake of Fire that will abide for the rest of eternity.
The Christian Universalist thought on that is that the Lake of Fire will last for a certain age or ages, because, it is referred to as the 2nd death and death is the last enemy of God to be defeated. My thinking is that is will last until the last one gives up on resisting the work of the Holy Spirit in his life. And that is because God insists on ALL men repenting and because Christ will reign untill everyone and everything is in submission to Him. And, because Jesus said if He was lifted up on the cross He would draw ALL men to Himself.
Both ways just don't work together. IF anyone burns in the 2nd death forever, then they have not been drawn to Christ and, they are still not submitted to Him. And, if it lasts for all eternity, how can it be abolished or done away with?
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/7/2008 8:56:05 AM
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dyluck
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theredhog
whisperingwaters,
quote:
I agree that hell isn't eternal also but that is because I know it will be thrown into the Lake of Fire that will abide for the rest of eternity.
The Christian Universalist thought on that is that the Lake of Fire will last for a certain age or ages, because, it is referred to as the 2nd death and death is the last enemy of God to be defeated. My thinking is that is will last until the last one gives up on resisting the work of the Holy Spirit in his life. And that is because God insists on ALL men repenting and because Christ will reign untill everyone and everything is in submission to Him. And, because Jesus said if He was lifted up on the cross He would draw ALL men to Himself.
Both ways just don't work together. IF anyone burns in the 2nd death forever, then they have not been drawn to Christ and, they are still not submitted to Him. And, if it lasts for all eternity, how can it be abolished or done away with?
theredhog
I think you are mixing up some verses.
John 3:17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
This is in context to here and now.
Jesus first coming was not to judge, as he would have if he came directly as the king and fufilled that prophesy
John 12:47
"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.
Lastly 1 John 2:2 "2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. "
It says here... the context is a letter to a group of already saved people. He is saying that his sacrifice was for ours (people the letter was addressed too, and the rest of the world - outside the confinds of the group of people).. when he meant world, I don't believe he meant every single person (christ accepting or not), but the whole area of the world in which his gospel is heard and believed.
Also this here should disprove renpentance from hell..
"No one comes to the father except through Christ"
Romans 5:10
For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
Wow... people in the lake of fire are not going to have personal relationships with Christ, nor are they going to be able to show fruits of the spirit. Nor are they going to be walking in spirit. They may regret their sin, but how can they repent?! Repent is 180 degree turn from sin. People in hell will not be able to repent if you look at the true definition of the word. Confess??? what do they confess? they have already been judged according to their deeds.
< Message edited by dyluck -- 10/7/2008 10:14:12 AM >
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/7/2008 12:51:53 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
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dyluck,
quote:
Lastly 1 John 2:2 "2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. "
It says here... the context is a letter to already saved people. He is saying that his sacrifice was for ours (people the letter was addressed too, and the rest of the world - outside the confinds of the group of people).. when he meant world, I don't believe he meant every single person, but the area of the world. This is weak IMO. Are you saying that Christ's atoning sacrifice for the sins of "the world" excludes people but includes cats and dogs or something? That's undefensible scripturally I think. Can you elaborate and substantiate biblically what you're saying?
You do know that there are two judgments in the next age, don't you? There is the Great white throne judgment AND there is the judgment seat of Christ (also known as the bema judgment). The Great White throne is based upon who you know (Christ), and the bema judgment is for what you've done (works)...be they good or evil.
REV 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done.
DR
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/7/2008 1:29:20 PM
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raivyne
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I don't see where you read cats and dogs into that quote... That's not what he's saying at all... that's what you're interpreting. He's saying th author was telling them the sacrifice was available to the entire world - every area not just the people he addressed that particular letter to.
I always read the two judgements as 1) sinner's judgment and 2) believer's (follower's) judgment (how well you lived up to the calling). Everyone in the sinners judgment will go to the lake of fire where where the maggots never die and the fire never goes out. The believers (followers) will be given their reward according to how well they followed Jesus (how well they loved/walked).
< Message edited by raivyne -- 10/7/2008 1:36:42 PM >
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/7/2008 1:43:38 PM
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Him4all
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whispering waters, raivyne,
quote:
I agree that hell isn't eternal also but that is because I know it will be thrown into the Lake of Fire that will abide for the rest of eternity.
I wasn't going to comment on your quote, but since you've got accolades from raivyne I feel I must...for both of you to meditate upon.
Yes our God is an "consuming fire" and biblically what gets 'consumed' when one is in that fire? In the story of the three Hebrew children in the firey furnace what was consumed? It was the thing that had them bound...the ropes. When death and hell are thrown into the consuming fire which our God is, I think that sin and its effects will be destroyed and the sinners will be loosed. And all praise will have to be to our God whose fire is purgative and not punitive. That's why we are baptized into that same fire that our God is.
...he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
DR
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When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/7/2008 2:50:30 PM
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raivyne
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*tongue in cheek*
Whew, what a relief! All you'd have to worry about is the worms then if you get tossed into the Lake of [not] Fire! The everlasting [not] fire is probably just to keep your tootsies warm... you know how worms hate cold food.
/sarcasm off
You're welcome to your views, and I admire them; but I still disagree. I would also say... God is love, not fire. 
for those wondering what verse that is quoted in the previous post here it is along with rest of that verse and the following verse for context.
"As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
"His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
(Mat. 3:11-12)
Its also found in Luke:
Now while the people were in a state of expectation and all were wondering in their hearts about John, as to whether he was the Christ,
John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
"His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
(Luke 3:15-17)
< Message edited by raivyne -- 10/7/2008 3:01:29 PM >
_____________________________
God grades on the cross – not on a curve
Good – God = 0
In the dark? Follow the Son!
The Power of a Simple Gift! samaritanspurse.org
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/7/2008 5:40:25 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
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raivyne,
quote:
That's one way to look at it. Not the way I see it (at this time), but to each his or her own.
Time is the enemy of us all I suppose...including our understanding in this thread. I'd like for you to think about another verse concerning the 'chaff' thing.
HEB 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, Doesn't that sound like chaff to you? How could chaff be anything but sin which clings to us? Do you think that verse means unbelievers cling tightly to believers?
quote:
Also, some translations state maggot instead of worm for the verse(s) in my post. I do not know if these same translations would use the same word for the Psalm, but I certainly hope not.
Actually, scripture declares that the 'sinful nature' of man is the 'sinful flesh', and Jesus' crucified flesh is symbolically, the worm (or ugggh 'maggot'  ) that relates to our crucified flesh, that we might have new resurrection life of Christ within us here, and a glorified body on the outside, in the hereafter.
JOB 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
DR
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/7/2008 8:28:54 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
The Christian Universalist thought on that is that the Lake of Fire will last for a certain age or ages, because, it is referred to as the 2nd death and death is the last enemy of God to be defeated. My thinking is that is will last until the last one gives up on resisting the work of the Holy Spirit in his life. And that is because God insists on ALL men repenting and because Christ will reign untill everyone and everything is in submission to Him. And, because Jesus said if He was lifted up on the cross He would draw ALL men to Himself.
Both ways just don't work together. IF anyone burns in the 2nd death forever, then they have not been drawn to Christ and, they are still not submitted to Him. And, if it lasts for all eternity, how can it be abolished or done away with?
Well put redhog! That's why 5 verses from the end of the bible which includes folks in the lake of fire we hear "the Bride and the Spirit say, come anyone who thirsts and drink freely from the water of life." Rev 22.17
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/7/2008 11:54:31 PM
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theredhog
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quote:
Whew, what a relief! All you'd have to worry about is the worms then if you get tossed into the Lake of [not] Fire! The everlasting [not] fire is probably just to keep your tootsies warm... you know how worms hate cold food.
Stuff like this is a good example of what I was referring to in a previous post when I said "I really don't think people believe in Hell like they think they do.". Who would every really joke about people being burned endlessly? Raivyne, sorry to single out your quote like that but it fit just too well.
I used to make jokes about it to before I was gripped with the reality of what I believed. But, I think that just supports my statement, we really can't believe it if we will joke about it. And, the jokes are EVERYWHERE! Like.."you think it's hot here!!" "Turn or Burn"...."exposure to the Son prevents burning".....
Dyluck,
We will just have to disagree on the "mixing up" of the scripture. I really think, though, that if we can mix em all up and still come up with a main theme will are probably doing pretty good..wouldn't you?
I wouldn't begin to say how and when all the judgments take place or what dimension they are in...whether in this life or the next, or, both. I believe God is love and God is also a consuming fire. A very plain example of anyone being condemned to Hell but being given hope of change is Matthew 23:39. Jesus asked these folks how they could escape the condemnation of Hell, calls them children of Hell, says they are creating more children of Hell with their evangelism, BUT, tells them..."you won't see me again UNTIL you say...'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD"
That is a classic example of someone going to Hell/Gehenna then repenting.....the change is in going from not believing Christ is the messiah to saying He, the messiah is blessed. This has to be a change that comes about because of their experience..whatever it is.
I still pose the question...if death is the last enemy to be defeated, how can the second death be endless?
If all will not come to repentance, why would Paul have told the men of Athens that God commands all of them to do just that?
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/8/2008 12:03:16 AM
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theredhog
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quote:
Well put redhog! That's why 5 verses from the end of the bible which includes folks in the lake of fire we hear "the Bride and the Spirit say, come anyone who thirsts and drink freely from the water of life." Rev 22.17
It totally changes your view of life doesn't it Steve? Real peace that passes understanding...
We can love God because He really is lovable, not because we think we have to or He is going to burn us forever. That is not love anyway you look at it. In any other relationship it would be abuse....mental illness.
We can just trust Him..trust His providence, His love, His judgments.... Our God is an awesome God!
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/8/2008 2:46:15 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
We can just trust Him..trust His providence, His love, His judgments.... Our God is an awesome God!
Yes my friend He is indeed an awesome God! And he created the law to which Jesus says "the weightier parts of the law are justice,mercy and faithfulness." Matt 23.23 Thus justice is tempered with mercy.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/8/2008 8:35:16 PM
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lbangotti
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Look at this way...Hell is still for all eternity. If you die without Christ and you go to Hell..it is still going to be eternity. Hell is just fire that is being tossed into the LAKE of fire..You are still going to be burned.
The only time when you come out of Hell when a soul comes out of Hell..that one time is to stand at the Great White Throne judgement..after that its for all eternity.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/9/2008 2:26:10 PM
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dyluck
Posts: 155
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
quote:
We can just trust Him..trust His providence, His love, His judgments.... Our God is an awesome God!
Yes my friend He is indeed an awesome God! And he created the law to which Jesus says "the weightier parts of the law are justice,mercy and faithfulness." Matt 23.23 Thus justice is tempered with mercy.
Hi Steve!
God's mercy is awesome isn't it? Praise God for his mercy by Christ's sacrifice. Praise God for our second chance! what great mercy from a Holy God! Thank God for the coming mercy on the throne Judgment.
Don't forget.. without Jesus' death, God could not forgive us nor could we be reconciled onto him of our own power.
How is it that we or Hell/lake of fire has that power? how is it that we "apparently coming out of lake of fire to repent" will be able to repent to reconcile onto God? That almost sounds like we have the power to change and not God. God is what brings us to repentance in this age. When God judges, he sends wicked to the lake of fire to be away from his presents... so God spirit is not in the lake of fire, nor is it near him... Forever separation from God.
I just wanted to say to everyone here I admire everyone's strength and love to God and may it bring glory upon him!
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/9/2008 2:45:56 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
How is it that we or Hell/lake of fire has that power? how is it that we "apparently coming out of lake of fire to repent" will be able to repent to reconcile onto God? That almost sounds like we have the power to change and not God. God is what brings us to repentance in this age. When God judges, he sends wicked to the lake of fire to be away from his presents... so God spirit is not in the lake of fire, nor is it near him... Forever separation from God.
Crazy as this may sound i suspect that God is the lake of fire, after all He is called a consuming fire.
Notice this lake of fire is not an abyss from which it would be clear there can be no escape. It's a lake which normally a person can walk out of as opposed to an abyss. The gates of New Jerusalem are always open meaning you can always come in.
God is present in the lake of fire because Paul said God will be "all in all." 1st Cor 15.
BTW it's the goodness of God that brings repentence.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/9/2008 3:00:29 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
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From: Kansas
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dyluck,
quote:
How is it that we or Hell/lake of fire has that power? how is it that we "apparently coming out of lake of fire to repent" will be able to repent to reconcile onto God?
Scripture answers that well...because God is there.
PSA 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Why would He be there is the question. I believe it's to do just what you said.
quote:
God is what brings us to repentance....
quote:
I just wanted to say to everyone here I admire everyone's strength and love to God and may it bring glory upon him! ditto dyluck.... 
DR
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When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/10/2008 11:35:43 PM
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theredhog
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quote:
quote:
I just wanted to say to everyone here I admire everyone's strength and love to God and may it bring glory upon him!
ditto dyluck....
DR
Ditto from me too :)
God Bless!!
redhog
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/11/2008 8:00:42 AM
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nettiel
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hi, when you make god the lord of your life, and ask him to come in and clean you up he will and you are his child. he forgives all the sins in your life, all you have to do is ask.nettie
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/23/2008 2:45:02 PM
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dyluck
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good input nettiel. Although, there is definitely more to being a christian then just asking for forgiveness You must also be brought to a continous state of repentance.
quote:
How is it that we or Hell/lake of fire has that power? how is it that we "apparently coming out of lake of fire to repent" will be able to repent to reconcile onto God? That almost sounds like we have the power to change and not God. God is what brings us to repentance in this age. When God judges, he sends wicked to the lake of fire to be away from his presents... so God spirit is not in the lake of fire, nor is it near him... Forever separation from God.
Crazy as this may sound i suspect that God is the lake of fire, after all He is called a consuming fire.
Notice this lake of fire is not an abyss from which it would be clear there can be no escape. It's a lake which normally a person can walk out of as opposed to an abyss. The gates of New Jerusalem are always open meaning you can always come in.
God is present in the lake of fire because Paul said God will be "all in all." 1st Cor 15.
BTW it's the goodness of God that brings repentence.
Yes Steve, the only difference is, the time to repent is now! the race is over when the first death comes before us as Paul and Timothy state.. The time for reconciliation is now. Hell is clearly a place of forgetting a place of torment and a place of death. Remember death itself is being thrown into the fire as well... Will death come back too? be reconciled onto God? I do believe that the lake of fire was created by God. the opposite of heaven is hell. God is eternal, heaven is eternal ; yet had a begining and so does the lake of fire. It has a begining but no end. God's punishment for us is a just punisment. 1 sin against an eternaly Holy God is punshsment deserving for an eternal judment. Death is death and it is absolute.
Lets corilate death in a few manners... First when we become truely regenerated and born again... we died to sin and was made a new creature. That is absolute, cannot turn back. The next is physical death, this is absolute and without the power of God, we cannot come back from it.
This was a curse not a judgement. The second death is Judgement when in the passages you reffered in 1 corinthians 15, death and sin will be underfoot of christ. Now it talks about destroy "the last enemy to be destroyed is death" this was thrown into the fire where those lost judged will be tossed... Destroyed, destroyed, destroyed... You cannot nor will come out of eternal distruction. Everything under this dominion is under God yes, the consuming Fire of God is wrath. I do believe that the lake of fire is a result of God's perfect Judgement, perfect wrath. Our reward is absolute eternal then why is his judgemet not absolute and eternal?
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/24/2008 2:17:09 AM
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theredhog
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quote:
Will death come back too? be reconciled onto God?
No, death is an enemy of God, it will be destroyed in the lake of fire, which is the 2nd death. Colossians 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Death will be done away with.
quote:
I do believe that the lake of fire is a result of God's perfect Judgement, perfect wrath. Our reward is absolute eternal then why is his judgemet not absolute and eternal? Because that would contradict other scriptures. Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
John 12:31-33 31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
If Hell or the Lake of Fire is endless, how are these other scriptures to be understood?
redhog
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/24/2008 10:46:21 AM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
If Hell or the Lake of Fire is endless, how are these other scriptures to be understood?
Acts 17:30 - God delayed His judgment, as He often does. He did it in OT times in order to store up His wrath against the nations that the Israelite nation conquered - that was part of the reason God let them take over the promised land, to exact His judgment.
But in this verse, we see Him waiting for a different reason. We see that He withheld immediate judgment in order that more people could come to know Him. So basically, God is saying "I've let it slide so far, but now we're playing for keeps. Repent, or else."
John 12:31-33 - He's just saying that, one, He'll die on a cross (hence the lifted up), and that it will present the opportunity for all men to come to Him. It doesn't necessarily guarantee that all men will come to Him, though. If that were the case, why would so many of His teachings/parables indicate that there will be those who refuse to come to Him (the parable of the wedding feast, for example)?
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