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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/2/2008 12:23:00 AM
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steve7150
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quote:
You use as a part of your proof the fact that the Young’s Translation interprets aiōnios as defining an age rather than eternity. If that be the case then the same translation also says that the righteous also have life for the same age and not eternity.
Matthew 25:46 ( YLT ) 46And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.’
Honestly Bob, This is your one verse that apparently supports eternal torment. The future home of 98% of humanity may hang on this one verse because gehenna really is not referring to hell.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/2/2008 12:34:41 AM
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theredhog
Posts: 47
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Steve,
quote:
Did the apostles run around in Acts warning folks of endless hell?
No. Go figure... But he is the one who said people are saved by the foolishness of preaching! One has to ask..preaching what? Acts 17 "18Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection. "
More specifically, "24God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. "
Notice how he never tried to manipulate them into "believing" ..how can you do that anyway??? He never mentioned anything about burning forever. He did say though, that God commands all to repent because He will judge the world in righteousness. Notice what the "assurance" is that God gave to all men...the resurrection from death.
That seemed to be the concern. How many people in the gospels ran to Jesus asking Him to save them from Hell? Hebrews 2 tells us that Christ died to take away the fear of death from His children.
Adam's sin brought death to us all. Christ's obedience brought life to us all. The rewards and punishments, I believe, depend on how much knowledge of Him we have and what we do with it. Those who received more may wind up with less and the one's who didn't receive much at all, may reap a bumper crop.
It just behooves us to listen the that still small voice in our hearts yield as God instructs. He will judge in righteousness and He will do right.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/2/2008 12:40:02 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1970
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quote:
Honestly Bob, This is your one verse that apparently supports eternal torment. The future home of 98% of humanity may hang on this one verse because gehenna really is not referring to hell.
No Steve it compares the same word used for both eternal life and eternal hell used in the same verse...pretty hard to deny.
It’s pretty clear… if hell is not eternal then life for the righteous is not eternal either.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/2/2008 9:14:13 AM
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steve7150
Posts: 215
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quote:
No Steve it compares the same word used for both eternal life and eternal hell used in the same verse...pretty hard to deny.
It’s pretty clear… if hell is not eternal then life for the righteous is not eternal either.
OK Bob, I gave you two alternatives which you felt were ridiculous. Here is another way of understanding eternal life.
"And this is eternal life , that they may know you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." John 17.3
Here eternal life is not a quantity of time but a quality of life which is knowing God. That would suggest that the opposite which is eternal punishment means not knowing God but neither suggests any time frame. Thus can you not know God at one time but later get to know God?
When every knee bows and confesses Jesus as Lord will they know God?
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/2/2008 9:44:36 AM
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raivyne
Posts: 899
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theredhog
I just wonder sometime how some see a bigger picture and some don't...., I know it could be because of many different factors.
Perhaps their picture is bigger than yours, or bigger than you imagine.
quote:
ORIGINAL: theredhog
I really don't think people believe in endless Hell like they think they do. If they did they would be frantically trying to keep people out.
I do, and I do.
quote:
ORIGINAL: theredhog
How many people have you, with heartfelt compassion, warned about Hell today? In the last week?
You've been reading this thread yes? How many others have read it? I talk to people in church about it as often as I am able. I may even start a blog and a church group to further this cause, God willing.
quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
Here eternal life is not a quantity of time but a quality of life which is knowing God. That would suggest that the opposite which is eternal punishment means not knowing God but neither suggests any time frame.
Eternity refers to a quantity of time. Infinity refers to quantity and quality of things.
God is Eternal. Judgments in either direction are also eternal.
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In the dark? Follow the Son!
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/2/2008 11:10:40 AM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
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From: Kansas
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Bob97,
quote:
This conversation is quickly becoming ridicules. Based on those who do not believe in a eternal hell it now becomes obvious that there is no such thing as eternal life for the righteous.
Actually the above is not true. I have always maintained the position that we are talking about a QUALITY and not a QUANTITY issue, with the adjective aionios. Your position is the one that seems 'ridiculous' to me. One time your definition of aion is an age and the next time it's interpreted as eternity. I'm sorry that's simply an interpretive bias and not good translating.
But as I said before, a derivative word cannot have a force or definition that is greater than the word it was derived from. And since an age is a defined period of time, with a beginning and an end, then any word being derived from that root simply refers to the 'quality' of something taking place within that period of time.
quote:
Matthew 25:46 ( YLT ) 46And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.’ Having made that unrefuted point...again, the above verse makes perfect sense. Aionios has nothing to do with the quanity of time in the aion it is speaking of. It has to do with a 'quality' of something happening during that age. In this case it is the 'quality' of punishment or life which takes place during that age. Or, as YLT correctly points out, it is the aionioa punishment or the aionios life that is available during that particular age.
Read this next part sloooowly and repeatedly and meditatively...please. Unless you have an immortal glorified body now, I must assume that you are expecting a different 'quality' of "eternal" life in the next aion/age than the 'quality' of "eternal" life you have available during this age. You are also expecting a different 'quality' of aionios punishment, for others, in the next age too.
Again, as I've said before, an hour has 60 minutes in it. And the derivative of the root hour is the adjective 'hourly'. We can have 'hourly' meetings for the next thousand years, but that doesn't make the definition of an hour one thousand years. And if an age/aion has time limits, then aionios can not mean "eternal".
quote:
Now where I come from and where I church, people are warned at every opportunity that hell in eternal. If I were a betting man I would be willing to bet that most of the churches attended by those not believing in an eternal hell also warn the same thing…HELL is eternal.
You are right about my church 'mostly' believing in endless torture in hell. But I also remember pastor Kent being baffled as to why I brought so many people to the church compared to all those who could apparently care less about people spending "eternity" in fire. Did you do the homework I asked? Do Jews believe in 'eternal hell', did you read the URL, did you want to read my book? Until you can answer affirmatively, comments like "HELL is eternal" prove nothing to those of us who have read and researched the alternatives. It simply supports your bias...just like we support ours. 
But I truly do understand your/others bias Bob. And I respect your attempts to defend it, because, As you believe now, so once did I.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/2/2008 1:43:20 PM
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dyluck
Posts: 155
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I hear this stuff about "trying to keep people out of hell"
Its not about "keeping out of hell" its about coming to him. It really displeases me how people are so arrogant in accusing. we are all Christians apparently, so lets act like Christians.
Its not even about going to heaven. It is about loving God, glorifying him. This life is all about him... It is about devoting yourself to him and sacrificing this life for him. Submitting to him.
Hell is a concequence for the devil and his angels; however, we were just as supseptible to the temptation as the devil was. What was the temptation the devil used to begin with!!! Power... It is about power and that is why he is destined for eternal torchure (unless you are saying that the devil gets out for good behaviour too).
God wants us to submit to him on our own will. Not because he forced us. The concequences were obvious that his creation will never turn their back on him again. Hell is an eternal reality, it will be an eternal reminder to the rest of creation.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/2/2008 2:44:27 PM
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raivyne
Posts: 899
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p.s.
quote:
Job 36:26: No one can begin to understand eternity.
I can understand eternity that's not really eternal because it has an end. I can understand eternity that is simply an age. I cannot fathom anything that is unending. Try it. Try to imagine the universe as boundless, infinite. Now take that image and multiply it by infinity... and again... and again... (keep it up).
Now put that into the context of time.
What is it that Brad Pitt says in Meet Joe Black about multiplying something 10,000 times and take that to the depth of infinity... then you will begin to understand what I'm talking about (not an exact quote).
_____________________________
God grades on the cross – not on a curve
Good – God = 0
In the dark? Follow the Son!
The Power of a Simple Gift! samaritanspurse.org
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/2/2008 3:20:50 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1970
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quote:
Do Jews believe in 'eternal hell'
DR…there a lot of things that the early Hebrews did or did not believe in and in too many cases they were and are today dead wrong.
Christ is one of these wrong conclusions and God being a Trinity is another. I could go on but you see my point.
Now…you’re believing in no hell and universal salvation is of no concern to me since it does not affect your salvation of which I am 100% confident is secure. I totally understand how you come to the conclusion that you have, I read the same scriptures you do and see how you arrive at you position…It’s just that I don’t agree and neither does 98% of the body of Christ. In fact I think the position you hold is against the stated doctrine of this form.
That being said I am quite willing to continue to supply sources who will counter you expert sources…gives us something to do in our spare time.
Love Brother… 
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/2/2008 3:48:57 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
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From: Kansas
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dyluck,
Where do I start concerning our differing views?
quote:
What was the temptation the devil used to begin with!!! Power... Wrong! It was about 'knowledge' to "be like God". It had nothing to do with "power". No scripture for your side IMO.
quote:
Its not even about going to heaven. It is about loving God, glorifying him. On this we can agree. And it's interesting as to just who will be blessing, glorifying and loving God to the "ages of the ages"...as the following scripture plainly states.
REV 5:13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, "To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might for ever and ever!"
And "every creature" 'everywhere' would even include "the devil and his angels"...all of God's beloved creation...ouch.
ROM 8:19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God;
20 for the creation was subjected to futility/mataiotes, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope;
21 because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Now I assume you believe that the devil and his angels were also "created" beings. And according to this verse they acted the way they did, because "creation was subjected to futility/mataiotes/'moral depravity' "not of its own will".
3153 mataiotes: inutility; fig. transientness; mor. depravity
quote:
Hell is an eternal reality, it will be an eternal reminder to the rest of creation. Think deeply about what you just said. What does all of creation need a reminder for in the hereafter? It would only be an reminder to those who still need a threat to be forced into a 'love relationship' with God??? I'm afraid I don't need a threat.
Four years before getting 'born again', I made the decision I was going to go to that "eternal hell" I used to believe in (and you still do). I figured I had plenty of family and friends in hell who loved me unconditionally here. And I decided I'd rather be with them than a vengful, vindictive, sadistic torturer who was going to make me suffer eternally for my "vapor" of a life here and now. (Please understand, I'm not saying that's the way you see Him). But thanks be to God that He chose to 'call' me in this age instead. Now I truly serve Him out of love...and fear, but certainly not the fear of 'eternal purposeless torture'.
And if your above quote means you think creation in heaven needs that "eternal hell reminder" in the hereafter, then what good is the 'love relationship talk' to begin with?
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/2/2008 6:07:16 PM
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theredhog
Posts: 47
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Bob,
quote:
DR…there a lot of things that the early Hebrews did or did not believe in and in too many cases they were and are today dead wrong.
Christ is one of these wrong conclusions and God being a Trinity is another. I could go on but you see my point.
Now…you’re believing in no hell and universal salvation is of no concern to me since it does not affect your salvation of which I am 100% confident is secure. I totally understand how you come to the conclusion that you have, I read the same scriptures you do and see how you arrive at you position…It’s just that I don’t agree and neither does 98% of the body of Christ. In fact I think the position you hold is against the stated doctrine of this form.
That being said I am quite willing to continue to supply sources who will counter you expert sources…gives us something to do in our spare time.
Love Brother…
Bob
I disagree with you too but your attitude is BEAUTIFUL!!! 
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/3/2008 1:35:21 AM
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abraxas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dyluck
Its not even about going to heaven. It is about loving God, glorifying him. This life is all about him... It is about devoting yourself to him and sacrificing this life for him. Submitting to him.
That seems like a good attitude to have. So why is there all the fuss about whether hell is eternal or not? A while back you wrote,
"People want to try to prove this lame brain theory that it is not eternal. If you want to take the chance, sin a lil bit, test God and the go where GOD, JESUS Lord of Lords died on the Cross to save us from, then be my guest. I bet you wouldn't bet on it..."
I just don't see how these two positions fit together.
...
quote:
God wants us to submit to him on our own will. Not because he forced us. The concequences were obvious that his creation will never turn their back on him again. Hell is an eternal reality, it will be an eternal reminder to the rest of creation.
Here I see the two in the same paragraph and they just seem to clash. He wants us to submit on our own will, but He made the consequences [so(?)] obvious that his creation would never turn their back on him again?
quote:
Hell is a concequence for the devil and his angels...
But if you believe that God had perfect knowledge of who would end up there, what does it mean to stress that it was actually only created for the Devil and his angels?
eta: Just read through the remainder of the thread, realized I sorta repeated one of Him4all's questions...sorry, not intending to pile them up on you.
< Message edited by abraxas -- 10/3/2008 1:42:17 AM >
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/4/2008 2:10:32 PM
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dyluck
Posts: 155
Joined: 9/2/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
quote:
ORIGINAL: dyluck
Its not even about going to heaven. It is about loving God, glorifying him. This life is all about him... It is about devoting yourself to him and sacrificing this life for him. Submitting to him.
That seems like a good attitude to have. So why is there all the fuss about whether hell is eternal or not? A while back you wrote,
"People want to try to prove this lame brain theory that it is not eternal. If you want to take the chance, sin a lil bit, test God and the go where GOD, JESUS Lord of Lords died on the Cross to save us from, then be my guest. I bet you wouldn't bet on it..."
I just don't see how these two positions fit together.
...
quote:
God wants us to submit to him on our own will. Not because he forced us. The concequences were obvious that his creation will never turn their back on him again. Hell is an eternal reality, it will be an eternal reminder to the rest of creation.
Here I see the two in the same paragraph and they just seem to clash. He wants us to submit on our own will, but He made the consequences [so(?)] obvious that his creation would never turn their back on him again?
quote:
Hell is a concequence for the devil and his angels...
But if you believe that God had perfect knowledge of who would end up there, what does it mean to stress that it was actually only created for the Devil and his angels?
eta: Just read through the remainder of the thread, realized I sorta repeated one of Him4all's questions...sorry, not intending to pile them up on you.
quote:
But if you believe that God had perfect knowledge of who would end up there, what does it mean to stress that it was actually only created for the Devil and his angels?
eta: Just read through the remainder of the thread, realized I sorta repeated one of Him4all's questions...sorry, not intending to pile them up on you.
umm you fit those two "positions" together, not me. They aren't two positions at all. 1. Glorify him. 2. i was upset that people want to justify sin by trampling underfoot the grace of God. Jesus died on the cross to save us from sin, ultimately to Glorify Him. I was saying, if you believe what you believe, then test God, see where it will get you. It just angers me the justification in sin right down to fleeting hell that apparently says even in every other languages that it is eternal, yet for whatever reason to people here its "its not eternal, its age". Sin and continue on in whatever life you want to live because don't worry.. Hell is either temporary or you will cease to exist, so there is no accountability.
"Here I see the two in the same paragraph and they just seem to clash. He wants us to submit on our own will, but He made the consequences [so(?)] obvious that his creation would never turn their back on him again?"
Makes sense to me. This time is about our submission of our own will to God. God hates sin... there is sin now and sin needs a place to Go. If you are wicked and are not sanctified by the blood of Christ, then you are sin and will follow it to it's impending judgment. Eternal separation from God.
"But if you believe that God had perfect knowledge of who would end up there, what does it mean to stress that it was actually only created for the Devil and his angels?"
Well I will answer your question with a question. he already knew the devil and the angels would end up there too, but why then did he create them only to see them fall? You and I are not about understanding nor questioning the motives of God. God does what God does. He can't even compare to anything else that's why he says "I am that I am". You play the devils advocate quite well... Why would you even say that last statement?
My last answer as "humble" as I can be... BECAUSE THE BIBLE SAID IT... You can keep drawing straws all day asking questions like that, really causes discord in your stand for what is right.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/5/2008 1:17:53 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 302
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dyluck
umm you fit those two "positions" together, not me. They aren't two positions at all. 1. Glorify him. 2. i was upset that people want to justify sin by trampling underfoot the grace of God. Jesus died on the cross to save us from sin, ultimately to Glorify Him. I was saying, if you believe what you believe, then test God, see where it will get you. It just angers me the justification in sin right down to fleeting hell that apparently says even in every other languages that it is eternal, yet for whatever reason to people here its "its not eternal, its age". Sin and continue on in whatever life you want to live because don't worry.. Hell is either temporary or you will cease to exist, so there is no accountability.
Hi Dyluck, I think I understand you better. Though I don't know who here was trying to justify sin.
In any case it boils down to this: This life is all about loving God and devoting yourself to Him. But if you don't you'll burn in Hell forever. But he wants us to come to him for the right reasons, and of our own free will, but Hell will serve as an eternal reminder of what happens to those who don't.
quote:
quote:
"But if you believe that God had perfect knowledge of who would end up there, what does it mean to stress that it was actually only created for the Devil and his angels?"
Well I will answer your question with a question. he already knew the devil and the angels would end up there too, but why then did he create them only to see them fall?
You know I never actually thought about that, but you're right that is an excellent question.
quote:
You and I are not about understanding nor questioning the motives of God. God does what God does. He can't even compare to anything else that's why he says "I am that I am". You play the devils advocate quite well... Why would you even say that last statement?
My last answer as "humble" as I can be... BECAUSE THE BIBLE SAID IT... You can keep drawing straws all day asking questions like that, really causes discord in your stand for what is right.
There seems to be plenty of disagreement about what God does, and what the Bible says. When a person attempts to assess the various claims and interpretations, why are they questioning God? Why should I take your word for it and not redhog or Him4all? Or some non-Christian claims?
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/5/2008 10:15:58 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1970
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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quote:
There seems to be plenty of disagreement about what God does, and what the Bible says. When a person attempts to assess the various claims and interpretations, why are they questioning God? Why should I take your word for it and not redhog or Him4all? Or some non-Christian claims?
After you consider the options you have to go where the Spirit leads you.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/5/2008 4:56:29 PM
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dyluck
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Yes bob but also, we must circle back and test the spirit with the word as it says in 1 John.
abraxxas your statement that lead me to say "the bible said it" is about how God prepared hell for the devil and his angels. It does say that in the bible. Believe what you want to believe, but that is what it says. I doesn't say anywhere in the bible that God created it for us. It does say we will reap the same consequence if without Christ though.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/5/2008 6:01:31 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1970
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From: Kansas
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Amen dyluck...we should test everything...even what we think we know for sure.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/5/2008 11:21:13 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
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dyluck,
quote:
He wants us to submit on our own will, but He made the consequences [so(?)] obvious that his creation would never turn their back on him again?" Try out your paradigm of 'that kind of a love relationship' out on a girlfriend and I honestly believe you will realize that the God of the universe has a better plan than yours. Yours sort of sounds like I need to beat my wife black and blue so she knows the consequences of not 'submitting' "on her own will".
quote:
God hates sin... there is sin now and sin needs a place to Go. Agreed!
quote:
If you are wicked and are not sanctified by the blood of Christ, then you are sin and will follow it to it's impending judgment. Here your logic breaks down a bit for me. I know the difference between sin and sinner. I know you still sin and yet you think you are not sin. I have no problem with that. But neither are unbelievers sin because they sin...they too are sinners...they might even sin less than you do. Did you ever think about that? I have. I used to try to witness to a guy that, as far as I was concerned had less sin in his life than me. Made for a pretty tough sell. I don't think you can support a sinner being sin scripturally...can you? If you can't then you might need to rethink things.
quote:
Well I will answer your question with a question. he already knew the devil and the angels would end up there too, but why then did he create them only to see them fall?
What do you mean "end up there"? Maybe you should thing about it this way. They will use it as the intended tool God meant for it to be. The bible doesn't say they're going to hell it simply says it was made for them. I have often said that Satan is merely a tool/smith in the hands of God to accompish his purposes. If that is so, then hell is merely the crucible of his refining fire. And angels are the tools of implementation for the judgments of God.
ISA 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
In other words, I have no problem believing that hell is made for the devil and his angels. And their purpose is to use those hellfires to refine by firey trials which test us...in this age as well as the next. And its fire is simply a means to an end in the grand plan of our God who wills that all men be saved. And, if you think about it, who is big enough or powerful enough to thwart His will? None say I. But in creating a waster to destroy as the above verse speaks, I can only say that which is destroyed had no place in the plan of God that lasts long after these temporal ones end. That does not mean sinner IMO...it means sin and rebellion. And praise be to God, when he is through there will be no more sin or rebellion...in saint or sinner I hope.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/6/2008 12:51:26 AM
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dyluck
Posts: 155
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: Him4all
dyluck,
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He wants us to submit on our own will, but He made the consequences [so(?)] obvious that his creation would never turn their back on him again?" Try out your paradigm of 'that kind of a love relationship' out on a girlfriend and I honestly believe you will realize that the God of the universe has a better plan than yours. Yours sort of sounds like I need to beat my wife black and blue so she knows the consequences of not 'submitting' "on her own will".
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God hates sin... there is sin now and sin needs a place to Go. Agreed!
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If you are wicked and are not sanctified by the blood of Christ, then you are sin and will follow it to it's impending judgment. Here your logic breaks down a bit for me. I know the difference between sin and sinner. I know you still sin and yet you think you are not sin. I have no problem with that. But neither are unbelievers sin because they sin...they too are sinners...they might even sin less than you do. Did you ever think about that? I have. I used to try to witness to a guy that, as far as I was concerned had less sin in his life than me. Made for a pretty tough sell. I don't think you can support a sinner being sin scripturally...can you? If you can't then you might need to rethink things.
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Well I will answer your question with a question. he already knew the devil and the angels would end up there too, but why then did he create them only to see them fall?
What do you mean "end up there"? Maybe you should thing about it this way. They will use it as the intended tool God meant for it to be. The bible doesn't say they're going to hell it simply says it was made for them. I have often said that Satan is merely a tool/smith in the hands of God to accompish his purposes. If that is so, then hell is merely the crucible of his refining fire. And angels are the tools of implementation for the judgments of God.
ISA 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
In other words, I have no problem believing that hell is made for the devil and his angels. And their purpose is to use those hellfires to refine by firey trials which test us...in this age as well as the next. And its fire is simply a means to an end in the grand plan of our God who wills that all men be saved. And, if you think about it, who is big enough or powerful enough to thwart His will? None say I. But in creating a waster to destroy as the above verse speaks, I can only say that which is destroyed had no place in the plan of God that lasts long after these temporal ones end. That does not mean sinner IMO...it means sin and rebellion. And praise be to God, when he is through there will be no more sin or rebellion...in saint or sinner I hope.
DR
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What do you mean "end up there"? Maybe you should thing about it this way. They will use it as the intended tool God meant for it to be. The bible doesn't say they're going to hell it simply says it was made for them. I have often said that Satan is merely a tool/smith in the hands of God to accompish his purposes. If that is so, then hell is merely the crucible of his refining fire. And angels are the tools of implementation for the judgments of God.
Hi Him4All
The first statement you quotes is not a setting of relationship, moreover describing consequence. You tell your child as God is our Father and we are our children, do not touch the stove, you will get burned - action / consequence. I believe hell has more of a purpose then to punish the wicked.
Remember, hell or heaven is after we have made our choices here.
The next statement about being sin. Remember, Christ became sin on our behalf. 2 Cor 5:21 "21God made him who had no sin to be sin[a] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." When we are not a slave to righteousness, we are a slave to sin, which leads to death. Lastly, there is no measure of Sin brother. How many sins did it take for Adam and Eve to be separated from God and be Cursed with death? It is only of Jesus we can be reconciled unto God. (thats a whole other topic). So it is not a measure of sin, although those who are not with him will be judged according to their deeds, which leads me to believe there are a variance in severity of Hell. Not lenth of time. It doesn't say anywhere in the bible that we are reconciled unto God through purgatory in hell or some kind of burning of iniquity. Find that in the bible, because I don't.
Finally if you could see that a non-christian has apparent "less sin then you", what were you doing that he could measure? Remember, we are to show the fruits of our salvation through our lives. We are called to be different and not part of this world for a reason. Your friend should see christ in you, it really shouldn't be a measure of Sell. His God's grace should be abundant and apparent through you. (not showing him grace is tickets to sin of course  )
It says in the bible the devil will be thrown into eternal torment along with his angels, first shows not mercy for angels before judgement here:
2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;
And after Judgement:
When the thousand years are over [the Millennium], Satan will be released from his prison [the bottomless pit] and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth, –Gog and Magog– to gather them for battle. ... But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Revelation 7-10
Yes, all creation is under God. Why did God allow sin?! Good question no? Well I feel I answered that one... 1. So it doesn't happen again. 2. To see who truly submits to him of their own will. However, that is merely an assumption. Clearly God does not want anything that doesn't submit to him. Thinking that nothing happens out of God's design. It is impossible for us to fathom all purposes of God's greatness. What is interesting is how either "election or predestination" comes into play with this whole subject. Obviously that is for a different topic.
Isaiah 54:16 is not talking about the devil and his demons directly at all... Although I can see how it would appear that way. here are many different commentaries I found these commentaries from biblos.com It's context referrers that God also holds and controls the power to destroy. But the power is controlled by him therefore there is nothing to fear for God is in control as you read the surrounding passages.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
There is key in that context.. God wants everyone to come to repentance... It doesn't say that everyone will come to repentance...
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/6/2008 12:11:21 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: online
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dyluck,
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The first statement you quotes is not a setting of relationship, moreover describing consequence. You tell your child as God is our Father and we are our children, do not touch the stove, you will get burned - action / consequence. I believe hell has more of a purpose then to punish the wicked.
Remember, hell or heaven is after we have made our choices here. I think it is about relationships, and I don't really see how you can say it isn't. I will agree that I had the action/consequence switched. But let me just turn them around then and say: "Honey either you submit to me or I'll beat you black and blue." Now the consequence is after she makes her choice. Still doesn't fit my understanding of a love relationship with God. That's a threat relationship, not a love one, in my book.
And as far as your child burning himself??? Is the primary purpose of hell to cook food or people, from your perspective? If it's people then, with your analogy, how did the people get burned ahead of time from an oven God turned on in the first place to burn them in the hereafter? I know that's a bit convoluted but it points out the problem with some of our analogies I think.
As far as becoming sin we have a scriptural problem. Yes it says Jesus became sin for us, but no where does it ever say we become sin....slaves to sin, yes!, but becoming sin, no! So I'm gonna have to side with Jesus and the sinners
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Lastly, there is no measure of Sin brother. How many sins did it take for Adam and Eve to be separated from God and be Cursed with death? I agree, and yet Christians sin. And according to scripture if you deliberately sin after coming to Christ/truth there no longer remains a sacrifice. Now what are you going to do? According to scripture you're kind of in the same boat as those who never knew the truth to begin with.
HEB 10:26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
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It doesn't say anywhere in the bible that we are reconciled unto God through purgatory in hell or some kind of burning of iniquity. You're right it doesn't say we/they are reconciled by purgatory/hell/burning. How does the bible say ALL were reconciled even beore they accept the message of reconciliation?
2CO 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. You/I/they were reconciled 2000 years ago...I know it now, you know it now, they still don't...but they will, and then they will bow their knee in blessing, honoring and glorifying of Him. (Rev 5:13) The message of reconcilliation isn't you will be forgiven if you believe...it's you were forgiven 2000 years ago, now start living like it.
1JO 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. Thank you Jesus, amen.
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It says in the bible the devil will be thrown into eternal torment along with his angels, first shows not mercy for angels before judgement here:
2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;
That particular hell is tartaroo in the greek and it is only used once in the entire NT. And it says the angels are already in that "hell". So if those angels are here is this earth the hell it speaks of? It certainly has nothing to do with the hell of Matt 24 which is a future hell judgment in the next age? Or maybe the millennium is the next age and the Matt judgment is another age after...who knows?
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Isaiah 54:16 is not talking about the devil and his demons directly at all
Symbolically I think it is, and I think that Job is a hand in glove example of God doing that very thing.
This is long enough so it's time for me to quit dyluck.
DR
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When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/6/2008 12:33:44 PM
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lbangotti
Posts: 8
Joined: 10/5/2008
Status: offline
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Do you believe Satan will be redeemed?
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I thought that a person's eternal destination was entirely up to God, not us.
To answer the first question NO..Satan will NOT be redeemed. His time in short and he knows it.
Rev 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
To answer the second question is, we do have a choice whether or not to be saved. Salvation IS a gift.
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
It's not yours till you recieve it. So, yes..if you choose to reject the gift of salvation that God has for you, which is freely given..then you've made the choice where you will spend eternity. It's not God's will for man to perish but all to come to repentence.
2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
So, you see..it is clear that the choice is yours. Very simple and very clear.
< Message edited by lbangotti -- 10/6/2008 12:44:29 PM >
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and I look foreward to much more in the future. 