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RE: Taxes - 8/13/2008 12:07:58 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
I have no idea what the appropriate balance is between the two.
On my road there are only a few of us who actually pay any income tax. The majority of the people on my road get gov. checks. It's way out of balance. I live in Mississippi where handouts are the norm for too many families. They know more about how to work the system then they do how to apply for a job. They don't want to work, refuse to work, but have the right to vote for people who promise them a cut of my money. That in my opinion is out of balance.
I don't see a trend for people to try to come out of welfare and handouts.
I'm sure that's true for you locally and is impacted somewhat by the number of available opportunities and impacted by the "discouraged worker" phenomenon. Overall, however, it's not tremendously descriptive of the nation as a whole, although I agree it's a problem that we should find a way to address. Welfare reform a number of years ago was a good step in the right direction and worth taking another whack.
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“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Taxes - 8/13/2008 12:09:22 PM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
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I believe more and more of us will go cross over. In the past people believed it was a 'hard" thing to do that only certainly people/businesses were capable of doing. Today it's getting to be pretty common and easy. When you have a dozen or so friends that you see benefiting from it then it becomes very tempting.
When your not appreciated in your own country for your contributions it's easy to go to the arms of one who does appreciate you. One whose citizens treat you with respect not contempt and see you as some sort of enemy to be destroyed and punished.
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RE: Taxes - 8/13/2008 12:14:32 PM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
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quote:
Overall, however, it's not tremendously descriptive of the nation as a whole
The nation as a whole has not had the relationship with welfare that our state has. We like New Orleans have a long history. I am looking at the long term effect of gov. handouts and entitlements. Mississippi is still on the bottom. Why? It's because when you reward people for doing nothing they produce another generation of people who do nothing.
Study areas with large amounts of gov. welfare. We don't get factories because our people "won't" work or because they decided to drop out of school. (they didn't get jobs when they dropped out either - they just don't have work ethics and they know the gov. is provide for them so why bother)
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RE: Taxes - 8/13/2008 12:17:21 PM
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P31W
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I cannot edit my post but our people are being rewarded not just for lazyness but for Bad Distructive behaviors. Do you know the easiest check to get is the one for being a drunk or drug addict. It is. And it's the hardest to disprove. I know many people who get those checks. Why should they work.
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RE: Taxes - 8/13/2008 12:20:07 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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As far as taxes go, it's good to remember that we still have very low tax rates compared to other highly developed nations:
According to the Library of Parliament, Economics Division:
Assuming a family of four, dual incomes of $80k, 2004 average tax burdens on employment income were:
Germany -32%
Sweden - 29%
Canada - 24%
France - 22%
US - 19%
Japan - 16%
Above $120k, the relative tax burdens even out somewhat more given the more progressive tax structure here in the US. Still, the US average tax rate would be 24%, slightly below France (25%) and Canada (28%)
Below 40k in income, the tax rate in the US looks downright puny at 6% versus roughly twice that in other countries.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Taxes - 8/13/2008 12:24:29 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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A bit more data-
Average total tax burden (as a percent of GDP) in the U.S. in 2005 - approx 22.5%
In Europe - approx 25.8%
Among the EU countries - 27.3%
(measured according to OECD direct taxes under categories 10000 to 40000)
In 2003, the U.S. tax burden ranked 27th out of 30 countries.
Not that this is hugely informative, but it does help put the question in some perspective. Given that we shoulder the majority of the defense financial burden for a number of countries, our overall tax burden is in fact remarkably low.
< Message edited by GroupW -- 8/13/2008 12:31:21 PM >
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Taxes - 8/13/2008 12:27:13 PM
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ljmac
Posts: 1378
Joined: 11/20/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wing2000
quote:
The Tax Policy Center is a partnership between the Brookings Institute and the Urban League, both heavily left leaning organizations.
Fair enough.
Now can you refute the findings of their report?
I don't feel the need to refute their findings. If you knew their biases, then you knew their findings before they were issued.
The findings are opinions that are refuted ad nauseum. All you have to do is turn on the television or radio and you hear lots of different opinions about B.O.'s proposals.
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RE: Taxes - 8/13/2008 12:31:16 PM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
quote:
ORIGINAL: wing2000
quote:
The Tax Policy Center is a partnership between the Brookings Institute and the Urban League, both heavily left leaning organizations.
Fair enough.
Now can you refute the findings of their report?
I don't feel the need to refute their findings. If you knew their biases, then you knew their findings before they were issued.
The findings are opinions that are refuted ad nauseum. All you have to do is turn on the television or radio and you hear lots of different opinions about B.O.'s proposals.
"Can't refute their findings", then. Thanks for clarifying.
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RE: Taxes - 8/13/2008 12:31:35 PM
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ljmac
Posts: 1378
Joined: 11/20/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
quote:
ORIGINAL: wing2000
The nonpartisan Tax Policy Center says Obama's proposals would indeed increase taxes for small businesses, seniors and families, but only if their income was more than $250,000.
Most small businesses, seniors and families would get tax cuts under the Obama plan.
McCain's tax plan offers the biggest breaks to high-income families and businesses, while Obama focuses on those earning less than $250,000.
Two-thirds of Obama's tax cuts would go to families with incomes of $65,000 or less, according to the Tax Policy Center. Only 6 percent of McCain's tax cuts would benefit those families.
The Tax Policy Center estimates that both plans would raise the deficit - McCain's by $4.2 trillion over 10 years and Obama's by $2.8 trillion over the same period.
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2008/08/11/20080811elex-taxes0811.html
Article based on this
The Tax Policy Center is a partnership between the Brookings Institute and the Urban League, both heavily left leaning organizations.
Brookings president is Strobe Talbott, a deputy secretary of state for Clinton and long time Soviet Union and Russian apologist.
Marc Morial is the president and CEO of the urban league. He was a board member for the ACLU in Louisiana and Democratic mayor of New Orleans.
These are leftist organizations friendly to pickpocket politicians like B.O.
Attack the messenger and no attempt to refute the stated facts - next.
They are opinions, predictions, estimations, and guesses. They are NOT facts.
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RE: Taxes - 8/13/2008 12:32:44 PM
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its_GO_time
Posts: 220
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Politicans love to talk in the terms "billions, trillions of dollars", because they know that for most of us, your eyes glaze over, and you pay attention to something else.
Our current federal budget, if paid for(which it isn't) would cost each and every one of us(not just taxpayers), over $5000 each(Family of 4= 20,000), and for what? Bridges to nowhere, bike paths, instead of necessary bridge repairs, etc. Please forgive me, if I'm not so benevolent, as to give these bozos even more. I have to work for it, it just dosen't magically show up in my freezer.
_____________________________
"Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master" - Sallust
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RE: Taxes - 8/13/2008 12:33:06 PM
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HighPlainsDrifter
Posts: 1275
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: The Great Sioux Empire
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quote:
I believe more and more of us will go cross over.
Where ya going to go? I believe this is the last gasp of global freedom left on the planet. There may be better current tax situations in some second and third tier countries, but you'd be betting everything on a stability that isn't there.
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Molon Labe
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RE: Taxes - 8/13/2008 12:35:28 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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The change in taxes and distribution thereof for households and business is fairly easy to recalculate and either confirm or refute. The only significant opinion, prediction, or guess would be the overall cost overall change in the deficit. That part would be highly driven by assumptions.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Taxes - 8/13/2008 2:23:06 PM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
quote:
ORIGINAL: wing2000
The nonpartisan Tax Policy Center says Obama's proposals would indeed increase taxes for small businesses, seniors and families, but only if their income was more than $250,000.
Most small businesses, seniors and families would get tax cuts under the Obama plan.
McCain's tax plan offers the biggest breaks to high-income families and businesses, while Obama focuses on those earning less than $250,000.
Two-thirds of Obama's tax cuts would go to families with incomes of $65,000 or less, according to the Tax Policy Center. Only 6 percent of McCain's tax cuts would benefit those families.
The Tax Policy Center estimates that both plans would raise the deficit - McCain's by $4.2 trillion over 10 years and Obama's by $2.8 trillion over the same period.
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2008/08/11/20080811elex-taxes0811.html
Article based on this
The Tax Policy Center is a partnership between the Brookings Institute and the Urban League, both heavily left leaning organizations.
Brookings president is Strobe Talbott, a deputy secretary of state for Clinton and long time Soviet Union and Russian apologist.
Marc Morial is the president and CEO of the urban league. He was a board member for the ACLU in Louisiana and Democratic mayor of New Orleans.
These are leftist organizations friendly to pickpocket politicians like B.O.
Attack the messenger and no attempt to refute the stated facts - next.
They are opinions, predictions, estimations, and guesses. They are NOT facts.
Okay, since you prefer, 'attack the messenger' and no attempt to refute his message. Better?
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RE: Taxes - 8/13/2008 2:37:52 PM
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todd_t
Posts: 1589
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: The North Woods
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quote:
I don't feel the need to refute their findings. If you knew their biases, then you knew their findings before they were issued.
What a sad and magnificent cop-out. You can't dismiss the tax data presented, so you just ignore it.
quote:
They are opinions, predictions, estimations, and guesses. They are NOT facts.
They are if you look at the numbers.
_____________________________
In Memoriam: 1st Sgt. Obediah Kolath, US Army, Died in Iraq War (1973-2005)
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RE: Taxes - 8/13/2008 2:40:36 PM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
but you'd be betting everything on a stability that isn't there.
Not everything. Only what we choose to put in other places. Diversity is a key to reduce risk.
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RE: Taxes - 8/13/2008 4:07:06 PM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
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In 2000, the most recent year for which I could locate numbers (*), the Federal government took in $1.202T personal income taxes on $6.424T in reported AGI.
That is an effective tax rate for individuals, on average, of 19%.
If one is not paying 19% or more of AGI as FIT, then one is receiving a Federal subsidy - a socialist handout - in one form or another.
(*) If anyone has values from any more recent year, feel free to PM me, or post them here.
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RE: Taxes - 8/13/2008 6:08:33 PM
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ljmac
Posts: 1378
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
quote:
ORIGINAL: wing2000
The nonpartisan Tax Policy Center says Obama's proposals would indeed increase taxes for small businesses, seniors and families, but only if their income was more than $250,000.
Most small businesses, seniors and families would get tax cuts under the Obama plan.
McCain's tax plan offers the biggest breaks to high-income families and businesses, while Obama focuses on those earning less than $250,000.
Two-thirds of Obama's tax cuts would go to families with incomes of $65,000 or less, according to the Tax Policy Center. Only 6 percent of McCain's tax cuts would benefit those families.
The Tax Policy Center estimates that both plans would raise the deficit - McCain's by $4.2 trillion over 10 years and Obama's by $2.8 trillion over the same period.
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2008/08/11/20080811elex-taxes0811.html
Article based on this
The Tax Policy Center is a partnership between the Brookings Institute and the Urban League, both heavily left leaning organizations.
Brookings president is Strobe Talbott, a deputy secretary of state for Clinton and long time Soviet Union and Russian apologist.
Marc Morial is the president and CEO of the urban league. He was a board member for the ACLU in Louisiana and Democratic mayor of New Orleans.
These are leftist organizations friendly to pickpocket politicians like B.O.
Attack the messenger and no attempt to refute the stated facts - next.
They are opinions, predictions, estimations, and guesses. They are NOT facts.
Okay, since you prefer, 'attack the messenger' and no attempt to refute his message. Better?
Turn on your television, your radio, or search the internet and you will easily find others challenging Obama's tax plans. It's quite easy. It isn't my responsibility to spoon feed you.
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RE: Taxes - 8/13/2008 6:11:24 PM
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ljmac
Posts: 1378
Joined: 11/20/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
quote:
I don't feel the need to refute their findings. If you knew their biases, then you knew their findings before they were issued.
What a sad and magnificent cop-out. You can't dismiss the tax data presented, so you just ignore it.
quote:
They are opinions, predictions, estimations, and guesses. They are NOT facts.
They are if you look at the numbers.
I knew what they would say before they said it. I don't need to dwell on what I already knew.
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RE: Taxes - 8/13/2008 6:12:53 PM
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tafkam
Posts: 2067
Joined: 9/23/2005
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Since none of our friends on the left seem eager to answer the question, I'll dangle it again:
Even assuming the reports are true, why would ANYBODY be in favor of more taxes when the government has shown repeatedly that they are incapable of responsibly using the tax revenue they already get from the American people?
Given that a number of us probably fall into what the left considers the "evil rich", I would ask our friends on the left...how much of that income given to government is enough for you? What is the highest percentage that is acceptable?
Even more, why would anybody be in favor of a tax system that punishes achievement? (Which is what this does)
The questions really are very simple.... 
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: Taxes - 8/13/2008 6:15:44 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
Since none of our friends on the left seem eager to answer the question, I'll dangle it again:
Even assuming the reports are true, why would ANYBODY be in favor of more taxes when the government has shown repeatedly that they are incapable of responsibly using the tax revenue they already get from the American people?
Given that a number of us probably fall into what the left considers the "evil rich", I would ask our friends on the left...how much of that income given to government is enough for you? What is the highest percentage that is acceptable?
Even more, why would anybody be in favor of a tax system that punishes achievement? (Which is what this does)
The questions really are very simple....
Post #11.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Taxes - 8/13/2008 6:18:31 PM
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tafkam
Posts: 2067
Joined: 9/23/2005
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And still no answer. Again, how much is enough? What percentage will satisfy you?
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: Taxes - 8/13/2008 6:32:03 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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Are you looking for a specific number? I don't think there is one. I'm willing to do what needs to be done to fix the problems we have. Generally speaking, some combination of spending cuts and tax increases will do it. The magnitude of those changes isn't tremendous. A couple of percentage points of FICA taxes fixes the so-called social security crisis. Another few percentage points fixes the rest of the mess assuming we cut back on war-related expenses. I don't find that to be a big deal.
Post 11 answered your first question. The paragraph above answers your second. Generally speaking, our tax burdens in the U.S. remain low compared to the rest of the developed world. A few percentage points higher, and we're still less than most of the developed world despite carrying the lion's share of the defense burden for many and having spent a trillion dollars or so on a war. That's not too shabby.
As far as your third, "to whom much is given, much will be required." As one of the primary beneficiaries of our economic system and blessed beyond most folks, I have no problem shouldering a significantly larger share of the overall burden. It think that's appropriate. I wouldn't expect a family of 4 with $65k in income to shoulder the same burden as me. The amount of money that family has left over after paying the rent, the car and the groceries isn't all that much. For me, those expenses are a much lower percentage of my income. It's only fair that the person with more cash available after basic living expenses should have a bigger tax bill. Just my opinion - it doesn't punish achievement. It's a responsibility that comes along with wealth. I'm blessed to be able to bear it.
BT
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Taxes - 8/13/2008 8:46:44 PM
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wing2000
Posts: 1029
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
Speaking as one who benefited the most under the Bush tax cuts, and seeing the massive debt we've piled up due to bad economic/foreign policy in recent years, I just don't see an alternative to rolling back the Bush cuts. Whatever you think about the current administration and the way it spent money, the fact remains that we have a huge debt that has to be repaid somehow. 1st step - balance the budget. That will likely involve some combination of spending cuts and tax increases no matter which side of the aisle you stand on. 2nd step, generate a surplus in tax receipts sufficient to pay down the debt. Again, some combination of tax increases and spending cuts is most likely required.
Yes, regardless of who wins, the reality is the new President will not have much, if any money to spend. If I recall, President Clinton faced the same situation...though not on the same scale as we face today. And much to the surprise of many, Clinton and Congress eliminated the budget deficit.
As far as I'm concerned....both McCain and Obama are not being straight up with the American people (but of course, no one gets elected by telling people they will have to sacrifice). We will need to increase taxes and CUT spending...
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RE: Taxes - 8/13/2008 10:39:04 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1956
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
In 2000, the most recent year for which I could locate numbers (*), the Federal government took in $1.202T personal income taxes on $6.424T in reported AGI.
That is an effective tax rate for individuals, on average, of 19%.
If one is not paying 19% or more of AGI as FIT, then one is receiving a Federal subsidy - a socialist handout - in one form or another.
(*) If anyone has values from any more recent year, feel free to PM me, or post them here.
The long-term capital gains tax rate is 15%.
Anybody wanna guess where I'm going with this?
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Taxes - 8/13/2008 11:47:57 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1966
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
Even assuming the reports are true, why would ANYBODY be in favor of more taxes when the government has shown repeatedly that they are incapable of responsibly using the tax revenue they already get from the American people?
Because it has to be done. We need to raise taxes to fix the deficit.
I doubt few politicians would be in favor of increasing spending when we are setting record deficits as it is.
quote:
Given that a number of us probably fall into what the left considers the "evil rich", I would ask our friends on the left...how much of that income given to government is enough for you? What is the highest percentage that is acceptable?
For me, it would be about 50% of my marginal income. As a New York taxpayer, I pay more in marginal taxes than a Texan making $500 million/year, and I don't mind.
What is your marginal tax rate? Mine is roughly 43% if you factor in state, federal, and social security.
In any case, I am ok with mine going up to 48% if the government used that money to reduce the deficit. We owe it to our kids to start paying down our nation's debt- even if it's painful.
quote:
Even more, why would anybody be in favor of a tax system that punishes achievement? (Which is what this does)
Yet, without this system, nobody would have anything. The cost of achievement is having the government to back up your achievement by preventing anarchy- which means taxes.
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