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[Poll]
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Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong
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| TRUE - Christians have no business ever drinking alcohol |
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| FALSE - Cristians having an occasional glass of wine is not sinful |
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Total Votes : 120
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(last vote on : 10/5/2008 1:40:56 AM)
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 12:35:22 PM
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Hayseed
Posts: 559
Joined: 4/15/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tinkerbell_
So are we to accept whatever sin that people lay at our feet just to appease them? If that is what you're saying, and please correct me if I'm wrong, then wouldn't that put the focus more on others than on Christ or our relationship with him?
I'm also afraid that would give people liberty to dictate how our lives are run instead of discerning for ourself.
I agree. Too many people are "offended" by things they ought not, and many even look for offense as a way to "get up" or control others. By letting them dictate our actions we end up walking on eggshells and looking over our shoulders all the time to make sure nobody is "offended". This robs us of our freedom and joy in Christ.
Heck, I used to be in a band that played and preached the gospel in bars. Many "Christians" were "offended" that we did that. Should we have stopped just to give in their wrong-headed thinking?
The "high priest" theory put forth may sound logical, but the fact that Jesus did drink wine (it's recorded about the last supper) and even made wine as His first miracle at the Cana wedding, shows that it is not a correct interpretation.
_____________________________
My entire goal in life is to live exactly like the man who was falsely accused of being a drunkard, heretic and a friend of sinners by the religious people. So, don't be surprised if I'm not too concerned if you think ill of me.
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 1:00:58 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1884
Status: offline
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quote:
It's about keeping the main thing the main thing. The main thing is that what "we" do is pleaing to God. The second command is to love our neighbor as ourself. The passage above tells us how to do that. For "us" pleasing God may not be about drinking but about how we deal with another who has a problem with our drinking.
The main thing is loving the Lord and He says that He set us free and to not submit to a yoke of slavery for His Spirit gives liberty. We can be slaves to others (see Colossians 2 for example) and to their quirks, pet sins, etc. or we can walk by the Spirit. I know your intentions are good but that does not make them right.
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 1:14:05 PM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
The main thing is loving the Lord and He says that He set us free and to not submit to a yoke of slavery for His Spirit gives liberty. We can be slaves to others (see Colossians 2 for example) and to their quirks, pet sins, etc. or we can walk by the Spirit. I know your intentions are good but that does not make them right.
There is a differance between "living by the Spirit" and teaching people that you must do certain things inorder to be saved. That is what the passages you posted is talking about. What must one do to be saved.
This topic in my opinion deals with living in the spirit. Giving up liberty inorder to show true love to another inorder to gain their respect so that we can help them grow.
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 1:24:14 PM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
So are we to accept whatever sin that people lay at our feet just to appease them?
Are you suggesting that to drink in moderation is a sin?
quote:
If that is what you're saying, and please correct me if I'm wrong, then wouldn't that put the focus more on others than on Christ or our relationship with him?
It is not what I am saying. It's not putting "sin" at our feet. It's putting others before ourself for their benefit and get this.....to build them up........ the "to build them up" is talking about "in the Lord" and it may take more time then just a few mintues or hours. It may take a month or years.
Most people stop at Romans 14 without realizing it goes on into 15. Notice how we look Christlike when we put others in their weekness before ourselves.
Romans 15
1We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves. 2Each of us should please his neighbor for his good, to build him up. 3For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: "The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me." 4For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
5May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, 6so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
7Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God. 8For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs 9so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy,
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 1:29:10 PM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Heck, I used to be in a band that played and preached the gospel in bars. Many "Christians" were "offended" that we did that. Should we have stopped just to give in their wrong-headed thinking?
Are you trying to compare what you were doing....and I believe you were doing it inorder to bring people to Christ.....with a person drinking a glass of wine for enjoyment?
The two are very differant issues.
Witness involves doing what God "commanded" you to do. The other deals with a freedom we have the right to give up when it might cause another to be stumped in their growth or view what we call good - bad. Paul said why do that?
Romans 14:22b
Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves.
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 1:33:01 PM
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bluestone
Posts: 2934
Joined: 2/25/2008
From: United States of America
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Maybe the OP can tell us if her harrasser is an older Christian being a control freak, or a new Christian who may truly be shocked by her wine drinking.
Saying that, I don't know that hiding what we do because someone has been taught incorrectly and percieves it to be sin is right. Perhaps the person needs to be straightened out on the issue.
If your preacher incorrectly teaches that alcohol use in moderation is a sin, then why should your faulty theology effect me?
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 1:38:06 PM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Maybe the OP can tell us if her harrasser is an older Christian being a control freak, or a new Christian who may truly be shocked by her wine drinking.
Too bias.  Older Christians can still be immature. You also fail to realize that the other person may have a true concern for the OP. That may be the one acting in love here.
quote:
If your preacher incorrectly teaches that alcohol use in moderation is a sin, then why should your faulty theology effect me?
If you love someone you will do whatever you can to help them. Not stand on your right to exercise some liberty such as eating meat. At least that what Paul said he would do as a "mature" Christian.
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 1:40:11 PM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
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So what do you do with Romans 14-15? Tell others it's not for us today because we no longer have a "meat issue" in this society?
What is OK for you to give up today inorder to put others before yourself?
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 1:48:46 PM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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No one has asked you to "bow down to their beliefs". You have distorted the OP's post and I guess my reply as well.
This is what "I" am asking you to do.
It's not their belief you bow down to. It's God and the "bigger picture"
Romans 15
1We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves. 2Each of us should please his neighbor for his good, to build him up. 3For even Christ did not please himself
quote:
Do we allow them incorrect beliefs that they are using in judgment? No.
No one has suggested that we allow people to have incorrect beliefs.
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 1:56:01 PM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
Not at all, but making concessions in your own home because someone is misinformed is a bit much. Surely, you know I am not advocating blatant disregard for someone's feelings. Beliefs need to be expressed in love, not by coercion.
And what better way to show this person you love them than to give up what you believe is ok. Let them know you are doing it for "their benefit". THEN you can win them over because of your maturity in the matter.
I don't drink. If I did no one who thinks it's a "sin" to drink would give me the time of day. I need to "not drink" inoder to have them respect me enough to hear what I believe scripture teaches on the topic.
Sometimes you need to meet people "where they are" inorder to help build them up.
Missionaries do this all the time. If a woman must walk behind a man then they obey that custom inorder to have people listen to them. It's just what we do. It's really not a big deal unless we take our eyes off the bigger picture.
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 1:56:22 PM
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Tinkerbell_
Posts: 7668
Joined: 1/25/2008
From: NeverNeverLand
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
So are we to accept whatever sin that people lay at our feet just to appease them?
Are you suggesting that to drink in moderation is a sin?
quote:
If that is what you're saying, and please correct me if I'm wrong, then wouldn't that put the focus more on others than on Christ or our relationship with him?
It is not what I am saying. It's not putting "sin" at our feet. It's putting others before ourself for their benefit and get this.....to build them up........ the "to build them up" is talking about "in the Lord" and it may take more time then just a few mintues or hours. It may take a month or years.
Most people stop at Romans 14 without realizing it goes on into 15. Notice how we look Christlike when we put others in their weekness before ourselves.
Romans 15
1We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves. 2Each of us should please his neighbor for his good, to build him up. 3For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: "The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me." 4For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
5May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, 6so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
7Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God. 8For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs 9so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy,
I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. While we are to please our neighbours we aren't to do it at the cost of dismissing the Holy Spirit and His convictions upon us.
If someone believes that women working is a sin, am I to quit my job to appease her?
Or if someone doesn't agree with me spanking my children am I to alter my discipline just so he isn't offended?
I'm not being contrary but I think what you suggest asks a lot of us.
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 1:57:29 PM
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Hayseed
Posts: 559
Joined: 4/15/2006
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Okay, but it plays out the same no matter how we want to look at it.
Let's be brutally honest here in this question: Should we bear and act according to other people's ignorance? Does their ignorance and lazy faith determine what is and isn't actual "sin" for others?
These are petty issues people have that have absolutely no foundation in scripture. In fact, scripture is very clear in stating that their "beliefs" are wrong.
_____________________________
My entire goal in life is to live exactly like the man who was falsely accused of being a drunkard, heretic and a friend of sinners by the religious people. So, don't be surprised if I'm not too concerned if you think ill of me.
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 1:57:32 PM
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TrustingGod
Posts: 150
Joined: 6/19/2008
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No one is saying you should give up drinking the wine altogether, but why do you need to do it in front of the person who has the issue. I thnk that is what the point is.
I don't drink. My husband is totally against it and my dad was an alcoholic, so just in case alcoholism is in the genes, I stay away from it. I don't think people who drink are sinning -- however, I appreciate my friends who know how I feel and CHOSE to abstain in my presence. I wouldn't judge them if they didn't but they RESPECT me enough to do so.
The poster doesn't drink in front of the person. But he doesn't need to talk about it either. I believe he needs to simply and lovingly state "we will just have to agree to disagree on this topic" and let it go. He can continue drinking and she can continue her non-drinking.
I believe that doing something that one person believes is a sin in front of that person - that is a sin (even if the act itself is not sin). So if I believe drinking is a sin (which I don't) and you know that and you drink in front of me, I believe you have sinned. This isn't to say you shouldn't drink ever; it means you should respect me enough to abstain. "Live at peace as much as possible with everyone especially other Christians"
Now, if someone said they believed praying was a sin, I obviously wouldn't stop praying in front of them to appease them. This is a clear directive in the Bible (pray without ceasing). Drinking, smoking, cussing... these aren't clear directives in the Bible...so we act respectfully.
If I told you that I thought "rats" was a curse word. It offended me deeply. I don't think a person who says "rats" will get into heaven. Would you stop saying "rats" in front of me out of respect? I'd hope so. I wouldn't expect you to walk away and never use it again (well I would if I was REALLY convinced it was a bad word). But as a Christian, you'd probably make the effort to respect my own feelings. You could try to show me that saying "rats" is not against God or the Bible. I think this drinking issue is the same thing. Show respect but that doesn't mean we are asking you to change your own opinons and give it up altogether.
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 1:57:40 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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P31W-
I think there's a fine line between avoiding something that you know gives someone else an issue and allowing someone to continue on in an erroneous understanding of what it is to be Christian. I'm not sure there's an answer to your question that's good in every case.
The commandment in Romans 14 actually goes both ways - we are admonished not to despise (probably better translated as "disregard") the person who "eats" while the person who abstains is advised to avoid passing judgement on the person who does not abstain. Reading 14:13 in conjunction with 14-1-3, I think the commandment to avoid putting a stumbling block in front of a brother is directed to both the abstainers as well as the partakers - the responsibility is the same for both parties to come together and show grace. Further in V. 16, Paul tells us not to allow that which is acceptable for us to be spoken of as if it were evil. We have a responsibility to teach an accurate understanding of the Christian way of life.
Yet, in v.20, we are also commanded not to let items of food and drink destroy the work that God has begun. Interestingly, though, the issue gets turned back into a personal issue in V.21 where Paul tells us that the faith that we have in these matters should be kept to ourselves. There appears to be room for private indulgence at a minimum.
In Chapter 15, Paul switches gears and layers in an added responsibility for the more mature Christians. We are to be considerate of weaker brethren in order to preserve the harmony of the body.
Overall, I pick up 4 themes. 1) The weaker brethren shouldn't pass judgement on the stronger. 2) The stronger brethren shouldn't exercise their freedom in disregard for the weaker. 3) Neither party should be allowed to continue on with an improper understanding of our freedom in Christ. 4) When conflicts arise, it's the duty of the more mature brethren to manage the disagreements such that the body is not divided and weaker brethren are not brought into error.
I think you can honor all four principles without gearing your behavior in every case to the lowest common denominator. I think that conflicts with theme #3.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 1:59:40 PM
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Tinkerbell_
Posts: 7668
Joined: 1/25/2008
From: NeverNeverLand
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TrustingGod
No one is saying you should give up drinking the wine altogether, but why do you need to do it in front of the person who has the issue. I thnk that is what the point is.
Please reread the OP. She firmly stated she does NOT drink in front of this person. The "friend' is offended by the fact that the OP drinks at all, so yes someone is saying to give up drinking the wine altogether.
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 2:00:35 PM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
While we are to please our neighbours we aren't to do it at the cost of dismissing the Holy Spirit and His convictions upon us.
Let's get back to the OP because I see this alot with "drinking". LOL I think too many people LOVE that too much and have gone too far overboard in their "right" to drink. (probably because they come from a place where they were told drinking was a sin - now they go to the other extreme and some I think believe it makes them a "cool Christian" to drink)
Do you believe the OP is saying the Holy Spirit convicts her to drink?
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 2:01:03 PM
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Hayseed
Posts: 559
Joined: 4/15/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TrustingGod
No one is saying you should give up drinking the wine altogether, but why do you need to do it in front of the person who has the issue. I thnk that is what the point is.
Actually, it was stated by the OP that she DOESN'T drink wine in front of the other person. But that the other person was offended just knowing that she drank in her own home out of her presence.
I stated that I don't drink beer in front of others that are offended or have a problem with alcohol. But I won't give up my freedom to drink beer for a person that just knowing I drink beer "offends them. It is their responsibility at some point to grow up.
_____________________________
My entire goal in life is to live exactly like the man who was falsely accused of being a drunkard, heretic and a friend of sinners by the religious people. So, don't be surprised if I'm not too concerned if you think ill of me.
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 2:01:32 PM
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zmanfan38
Posts: 8521
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: ...for it's root, root, root for the CUBBIES!!!
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hayseed
At some point the "easily offended" need to be pushed to mature in their faith and understanding of scripture. Trying to appease them will simply enable them.
This needs stars.
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«Christi»
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