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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/9/2008 3:41:50 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
No, actually the only thing lethal is your failure to understand that it is not
possible for God to change His mind. To insist that God changes His mind is to insist
God is lacking in perfect knowledge. He responds to man's decisions. We see it in Ex 32:14; Jer 18:7-10 and Amos 7:1-6. To insist on your understanding of these verses is to insist God's perfect knowledge is deficient....you'll welcome to go there, but I don’t think it’s a good place to be.
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Whether you realize it or not your position is that God's state of mind
before the so-called "change" would have been deficient, ignorant and imperfect.
That position assails God's perfection - is that really where you want to go?
K - why was God "sorry he ever created man"?
The answer lies in free will, not double predestination. No, actually the answer lies in God's judgment for sin "in the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die". Because man was spiritually dead in sin and in rebellion to God "his every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
God is teaching about salvation, that spiritually dead man is condemned and the judgment is death. The only way to be saved from this death is to be in the "ark" or, iow, to be "in Christ".
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Would you deal with those verses and tell me if God responds to man?
It is not possible for God to acquire “additional” information or for Him to know something imperfectly since He is omniscient. Therefore, it is also not possible for the ultimate actions of man to be unknown to God. IOW, God always knows what the reaction of man will be to His commands. God is simply teaching the basics of salvation – believe and repent and you shall live.
It is teaching us something about the character of God. God is omniscient, therefore, He cannot change His mind and as it says in Isaiah 46:9-10 He knows all there is to know "Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please."
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God gives us all time to repent and many of us actually do repent of some
of our sins. We actually do cry out to God for mercy and try to live more obediently
to His Word. Jezebel did none of these things. She wanted nothing to do with the truth.
She perferred her idolatry. I'm confused. I thought repentance was an act of God, a gift of God? It is. People of all stripes can repent of their sins, they repent for many different reasons. We know that Judas "repented". The point is that true repentance flows from the new spiritually born again soul.
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You mean we can be granted repentance, but only on our time and if we are willing?
Are you telling me God can choose to save a person but that person can refuse? No, that's not what I mean. Hopefully the above explains.
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Don't get me wrong none of this "repenting" we do is a basis for salvation.
'Scuse me? You speaking of after we are saved I hope. No, I am speaking of before we are saved.
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This is how men are able to recognize their own sin. I agree with
Sproul this is the first step in the process of repentance. The first step in true repentance is a new born from above spiritually alive soul.
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Sometimes, though, they do so[repent] to evade the consequences of the law.
Not sure what you mean here. Only that man turns from sin for many reasons, some of which have nothing to do with God.
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Faith is a gift. How so? A gift man gives to himself? When men repent God enables them to believe. Along with the
change of mind from sin and to God comes the "opening" necessary to believe. I see no evidence of this in Scripture. Where can we find people turning to God and away from sin before they believe? Besides, why would people repent if they didn't believe?
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But faith is also a spiritual gift and some believers have more faith than others. All faith is a gift from God. "What have you that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if it were not a gift?" and....
"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
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While both repentance and faith are necessary, they are not the same thing.
As you said, it is a two-sided coin. Clearly, we cannot have one without the other -
and both are the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. But the Bible calls on the wicked to repent and says nothing about the Holy Spirit. True faith and repentance is from God. They are the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer. Both these gifts are the result of the new spiritually alive soul. John 3 tells us we must be born again. We cannot create life where there is none because we believe or repent of sins.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/9/2008 3:57:37 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
People are saved by the grace of God.
That means salvation is of unmerited favor.
Unmerited favor implies that nothing at all was done by the person to merit salvation.
Repentance, faith, good works, or any other condition or list of conditions that the human being would have to meet to merit salvation would mean the human did something to merit it.
Here is a really good article on faith and repentance;
http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/faith-and-repentance/
KJB
Faith is both law and work. Therefore, it is the "faith of Christ" that works in saints. When we look at the following verses we see the relationship between the two.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
2Thes 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/9/2008 5:12:55 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
...can be said to hold to an "easy believism" gospel. If someone once believed, but, then totally renounced his faith, we're told he is saved.....why? A much more biblical position is that he never truly believed to begin with. Afterall, it's not as if the Bible doesn't present us with many examples of faith that is not salvific.
Yes,probably the vast majority of people who have renounced their faith or live like the devil were never saved. But there are even biblical exceptions, like Solomon, so it is possible in some cases to be an atheist or pagan and be saved still. The problem for the FGM is that Solomon is not an example of its theology - just the opposite, in fact. Solomon repented of his idolatry.
Rejoice, O young man, in thy youth; and let thy heart cheer thee in the days of thy youth, and walk in the ways of thine heart, and in the sight of thine eyes: but know thou, that for all these things God will bring thee into judgment. -Ecclesiastes 11:9
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. -Ecclesiastes 12:13
There is not one single solitary shred of biblical evidence for this belief - that atheists or pagans can ever be said to be saved. How can they build such a theology on nothing?
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I agree that its dangerous to put faith in "profession" or "feelings "or "answered altar call". But i disagree that works are a definite proof of salvation either.
Bottom line is - nobody can judge the salv status of another, but God.
This is not about judging someone else's salvation. It is about what Scripture declares, though.
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. -Ephesians 5:5
For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. -Revelation 22:15
Crystal clear scriptural evidence that Solomon did not die an idolater.
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What I understand as Easy Believism is modern religion for sale, church "business" using marketing techniques, etc. Easy believism and cheap grace are pejorative terms for a theology that doesn't profess what is taught in Scripture - that saving faith is a gift from God and Christ's words "With man this is impossible". Saving faith does not consist of intellectual assent alone. This gift carries evidence of itself in that the believer exhibits faith and repentance.
I agree with you this salvation "technique" is used to fill churches. The king of "get 'em in" was Charles Finney and his free will emotional gospel. The church today bears the bad fruit of his legacy. Finney, Pelagius...birds of a feather.
A terrible problem still remains with these theologies because "to leave out or minimize repentance, no matter what sort of a faith you preach, is to prepare a generation of professors who are such in name only."
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And yes, we cant outsin the grace given. The real issue is has that grace ever actually been given in the first place?
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/9/2008 5:20:37 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
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so it is possible in some cases to be an atheist or pagan and be saved still.
This is the most ludicrous statement i have ever read.
There are many who believe it.
And they are right here on these forums.
This is what false teaching on OSAS has done.
Rather, I think it's what the false teaching concerning salvation has done.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/9/2008 5:22:49 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
I've never learned to "sweeten-up" my words but I will try harder because I don't want you annoyed with me, Odeliya :)
media now uses the stylish version :"pork up". instead of "sweeten" :) Ah, but that's only if you have trillions to spend on "bridges to nowhere"....which apparently the dopes in Congress think we do...
Out of necessity, I have a mantra...I will not go there, I will not go there and that there is politics. My RC upbringing in evidence...avoiding the near occassion of sin....lol
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/9/2008 6:34:21 AM
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rwe2156
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Right, but isnt it what actually plagues the modern business oriented church culture
that only worries about the numbers, so called growth, new building, ministries,
show-off and other "bling"? to have cash you need attendance, to get attendance
you need to please and reduce the criteria of admission into "family of God", so
sinners prayer is declared to be enough! its just what the doctor ordered ! 
[agree]
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I dare not to insult you by suggesting there are something in the Bible you
haven't read yet, and I will open your eyes by pointing those verses out.
Where are they?
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Was Sol saved during the time he was a pagan? Or was he lost during those years?
1. Nobody is saying one can judge another's salvation.
2. The reality is what people are basing their confidence on.
Snapshots (or even short clips such as Sol) mean nothing - we all look bad
moment by moment.
This is a about a pattern of life - of continual, willful disobedience. Of course it is
possible for someone to "backslide" for years possibly - but what to do?
Assume they know Him, or go to the person with two thoughts in mind:
1. Maybe they are a "Sol" in need of restoration.
2. Maybe they are deceived about their salvation.
My contention is in todays "bling bling" church/pastors, numbers based success,
CEO pastors, look/act/talk like the world "Christianity" number 2 is more likely.
Jesus clearly taught there IS a way to know them (not judge them).
If your sister tells you shes saved and goes through the motions, no
spiritual fruit or true Christian character, you will know, dear.
I DO believe OSAS as it is taught is heretical teaching of Eternal Security
and has deceived many - Baptist church is the worst - look at what
we are reaping: the frozen chosen or the "just-i-fied never sinned".
Sitting on our justification is the problem, dear, not whether a saved sinner
can sin and for how long!
Do you see salvation as an event and the result is a position (?), instead of
a process with a beginning (justification) and an end (glorification)???
We can't agree on what salvation is, so how can we discuss
what happens/could/should/would happen in our Christian life (sanctification)?
We have substituted HOW we become saved for the gospel and left
out WHY we were saved/WHAT saved for ...................sad to me.
My former deacon/current still friend who left the church 2 years ago over
a "disagreement" never went back. After 2 years his wife occasionally goes
his two teenage daughters are too worldly to ever go back and now he
has started drinking and verbally abusing his family.
My efforts to no avail. What should I do dear?
You would say assume the man knows Him? I say not - not judging.
I must love him and will keep going to him, even if falling on deaf ears.
If my personal opinion is this man is a Solomonso what?
If my theology is OSAS heresy, then who cares -
hes' got a one-way ticket to heaven - who am I to question?!
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/9/2008 6:48:25 AM
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rwe2156
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Yes. The Holy Spirit may regenerate a sinner before he has saving faith.
I assume by "may" you mean "must".
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An anecdotal illustration, we can be reading the Bible, thinking little of it
and certainly not believing any of it. Eventually, the reader recognizes that he
doesn't quite "disbelieve" as much as before. It is very likely that at some point
God regenerated, unbeknownst to the reader.
Oh sure, a pagan can read the Bible and it means nothing.
OTOH, I know a missionary pastor in Honduras who was saved by
trying to prove the Bible wrong to his friends in high school 45 years ago.
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I don't throw out any verses; but, neither do I apply universality to
verses which are not teaching it.
Neither do I. "Many are invited, but few are chosen."
Many other verses speak to the universal call upon men.
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Is that really what you believe…”that man doesn’t choose”?
I don’t think that’s an accurate assessment of your beliefs. Afterall, you
do say man chooses to respond or chooses not to respond….do you not?
The revelation of God is apparent to all men.
Some believe and some don't. Maybe some are chosen for purpose - true.
John 6:70 is a good example of this.
Some of the verses on God's choice are addressed to the disciples, so
you must be careful making a general app to all men.
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God is not waiting in the sense that "perhaps" someone will repent.
Rev 2:21 clearly says Jezebel was unwilling to repent.
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Rev 2:21 is really to the church at Thyatira and more than likely this is not
an actual person but a description of all the false prophets allowed in by the church.
And, no doubt, has roots back to the OT Jezebel.
I don't see how that changes the fact that they were unwilling to repent.
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I don't understand why when there is joy in heaven at a sinner's repentance this would somehow oppose election. It is the responsibility of everyone to repent and believe; but, because we are in bondage to sin and Satan, we won't. Our moral inability does not remove the culpability for our actions.
Heaven is happy the mortal man responded, when all along they knew he would? I don't get it.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/9/2008 6:49:43 AM
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rwe2156
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quote:
No, actually the answer lies in God's judgment for sin "in the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die". Because man was spiritually dead in sin and in rebellion to God "his every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
Adam was not spiritually dead when he sinned, Kman.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/9/2008 6:53:05 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2366
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quote:
He responds to man's decisions. We see it in Ex 32:14; Jer 18:7-10 and Amos 7:1-6.
To insist on your understanding of these verses is to insist God's perfect knowledge is deficient....you'll welcome to go there, but I don’t think it’s a good place to be.
God knows all possible outcomes of all possible decisions.
His sovereignty and foreknowledge is much, much more complicated
than Calvinism's "God in a box" determinist view.
That's my understanding and it is supported by the verses I give.
Conditional statements (if man does X or Y) make no sense if determinism it true.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/9/2008 9:16:13 AM
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umcbee
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
umcbee,
quote:
Yes , I see how you reach your conclusion ; and I don't agree with it . Especially if you base that conclusion on the verses you quoted below :
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You apply it to faith ; but there is no evidence from the text or context , nor any other text for that matter to arrive at your conclusion .
I think the text does apply.
For who makes you differ from another?
And what do you have that you did not receive?
Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?
One point of the text would be who made you to differ from another?
You have faith.....another does not.....what exactly and specifically made you differ? That was part of the point in the article. Would the difference between you and the one without faith be attributed to an act of your own mind, heart, or will?
And this is where you are applying faith to what Paul is saying when there is nothing in the text nor the context to indicate nor imply that Paul is making any reference to their faith .
The author of the article also supper imposses faith as a main point of the text ; Paul however did not .
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Another point would be to point out that you received your faith from the One that made you to differ......so why boast as if you had this faith all on your own and did not receive it?
Again , its a presupposition of yours and the author's that anything concerning faith is a point Paul is making . The point Paul is making in 1 Cor 4:6-21 is the authority of the apostles .
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Do you see what I mean with those two points?
Yes I see what you mean ; but what you presuppose and what Paul is teaching are two entirely unrelated different things .
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It would go along the same lines as; for to you it has been granted not only to believe in Him, but to suffer for His sake.........
Every time anyone hears the gospel , it is being granted to them to believe in Him .
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Faith which one receives is a grant.
I can believe that to one who already has faith , God may grant them more faith in order to fulfill a specific purpose of God . But there is no Scriptural support that I can find to back up your statement above .
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Suffering which one may receive is also a grant.
Can you show me any support from Scripture that all believers are not granted suffering for Christ's sake ?
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I think the free-will POV is that people have faith and believe by themselves and did not receive it from God.
I have repeatedly stated that God has already done all that is necessary for anyone to come to faith . God has given mankind His written word ; God has sent His Son into the world to reveal the Father ; and through the Son the grace that brings salvation has appeared to all men ; God sacrificed His Son for the sins of the whole world ; God sent the Holy Spirit into the world to convict and convince the world of sin and righteousness ; God has given apostles , pastors , and teachers to reveal the Son , the message of the gospel and man's responsibility ; God has revealed (through the apostles) the way to the Son and salvation ; Whom it is through ; what man must believe to be forgiven and saved ; but some maintain that God must yet still do more .
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These were a few of the things we were all told from a free-will POV and which I do not agree with;
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You claim Scripture declares God gives saving faith, yet you produce NO verse with that clearly stated.
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If faith is a gift from God, Jesus HAD NO RIGHT to either chide or praise anyone for the faith they express. That is my point. Can you actually address that?
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The fact that Jesus chided people for their lack of faith and praised others for their great faith PROVES that faith comes from within man, and not God.
Those quotes would seem to imply that faith was not a gift that we recieved from God which would imply that we did not receive faith at all but somehow did it all on our own.
Look , Eph 2:8 is the only verse that can even be remotely misinterpreted as implying that faith is a gift . And I have supplied on many occasions an interpretation of that verse that is just as valid as the Calvinist interpretation that states that the gift in 2:8 is in reference to salvation and not faith .
Faith is not something we do , its something we believe .
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I cant agree with those quotes and what they would imply.......can you?
KJB
All they imply is that Calvinism's theology about faith and man is not based on what Scriptures teach but is rather based on presuppositions , that start with God's sovereignty , and then shoehorning Scripture in to support their idea of what sovereignty must mean and what God must do in order to remain within the guide lines of what they have supposed being sovereign has to mean .
So why not agree with those quotes ? I have not seen any clear evidence to the contrary that you have provided . BTW , all those reformed confessions do not give evidence to the contrary ; I suppose most anyone can sit down and write out some presuppositions and shoehorn some Scripture in to support it : the Mormons and JW's amoung others have certainly done so .
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kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/9/2008 7:31:30 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1678
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umcbee,
Thanks for the response.
quote:
Look , Eph 2:8 is the only verse that can even be remotely misinterpreted as implying that faith is a gift .
quote:
So why not agree with those quotes ? I have not seen any clear evidence to the contrary that you have provided .
The following text provides the clear evidence you need;
1Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: 2Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; 3seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
Here it is in NLT;
1 This letter is from Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ.
I am writing to you who share the same precious faith we have.
This faith was given to you because of the justice and fairness of Jesus Christ, our God and Savior.
2 May God give you more and more grace and peace as you grow in your knowledge of God and Jesus our Lord.
Growing in Faith
3 By his divine power, God has given us everything we need for living a godly life. We have received all of this by coming to know him, the one who called us to himself by means of his marvelous glory and excellence.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/9/2008 7:53:25 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
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Christians are said to be dead, dead TO sin. Right?
If we [Christians] can be dead TO sin and yet we still have the power to sin., the the sinner ,which is dead IN sin, may have the power to believe.
< Message edited by FolkSingerBlues -- 10/9/2008 10:05:45 PM >
_____________________________
My New Blog site
Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/10/2008 7:28:18 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2920
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
so it is possible in some cases to be an atheist or pagan and be saved still.
This is the most ludicrous statement i have ever read.
There are many who believe it.
And they are right here on these forums.
This is what false teaching on OSAS has done.
Rather, I think it's what the false teaching concerning salvation has done.
Who would want a temporary salvation ?
Do we tell the newly converted that ?
"Don't cling to The Lord too tightly..."
He may grow tired of you and divorce you-
How about an abbreviated marriage ?
A short term job, without longevity ?
Make friends then dispose of them ?
Our microwavable society values nothing.
Salvation that is not eternal is pointless.
Being saved from sin, death, and the devil-
to be released, relinquished, and returned.
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/10/2008 7:33:11 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2920
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
He responds to man's decisions. We see it in Ex 32:14; Jer 18:7-10 and Amos 7:1-6.
To insist on your understanding of these verses is to insist God's perfect knowledge is deficient....you'll welcome to go there, but I don’t think it’s a good place to be.
God knows all possible outcomes of all possible decisions.
You should rather say, "God would know-"
This mutiple choice God you fancy represents
a concept that you believe to be important rwe.
However, The Bible does not corroborate it.
Furthermore, what you state seems mundane.
Who doesn't believe God CAN do anything ?
But, does that mean that He does ?...nope !
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/10/2008 8:51:49 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues
Christians are said to be dead, dead TO sin. Right?
If we [Christians] can be dead TO sin and yet we still have the power to sin., the the sinner ,which is dead IN sin, may have the power to believe.
If they believe they have eternal life and have passed death unto life...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/10/2008 8:54:06 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
God knows all possible outcomes of all possible decisions.
It says... His counsel stands forever... Not counsels...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/10/2008 10:05:46 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 417
Joined: 2/12/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
Christians are said to be dead, dead TO sin. Right?
If we [Christians] can be dead TO sin and yet we still have the power to sin., the the sinner ,which is dead IN sin, may have the power to believe.
I see what you are saying but our power to sin remains in our flesh. The spirit and the flesh war against each other and we through the spirit mortify the deeds of the flesh.
But there is no war before we are saved. There is but one nature and that being the children of disobedience or wrath. We were slaves to sin and had to be set free. Once set free we can fight.
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/11/2008 3:35:31 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1678
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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kelman,
quote:
Faith is both law and work. Therefore, it is the "faith of Christ" that works in saints. When we look at the following verses we see the relationship between the two.
Yes, I see what you mean. 
When I see 1 Peter 1-2 and it says this;
1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
I can understand we are elect. The elect are strangers because they have been chosen out of the world and now have a different outlook of the world. The elect have not been chosen because of obedience to Jesus Christ but are chosen for obedience to Jesus Christ.
I would see 2 Peter 1 as being written to the same "elect" people.
Some would suppose people are "elect" because God saw (had foreknowledge) they would have faith.
You and I both know otherwise;
1Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:
2Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.
People receive faith as a gift just like you have been posting;
quote:
I see no evidence of this in Scripture. Where can we find people turning to God and away from sin before they believe? Besides, why would people repent if they didn't believe?
quote:
True faith and repentance is from God. They are the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer. Both these gifts are the result of the new spiritually alive soul. John 3 tells us we must be born again. We cannot create life where there is none because we believe or repent of sins.
Take care,
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/11/2008 3:59:54 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3886
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
I don't throw out any verses; but, neither do I apply universality to
verses which are not teaching it.
Neither do I. "Many are invited, but few are chosen."
Many other verses speak to the universal call upon men. All who have heard the Gospel have been "called". When you mentioned "universality" I thought you meant universal atonement.
quote:
quote:
Is that really what you believe…”that man doesn’t choose”?
I don’t think that’s an accurate assessment of your beliefs. Afterall, you
do say man chooses to respond or chooses not to respond….do you not? The revelation of God is apparent to all men. It should be apparent but it's not to many. Besides, even when it is, this knowledge doesn't result in salvation for most.
quote:
Some believe and some don't. Maybe some are chosen for purpose - true.
John 6:70 is a good example of this.
Some of the verses on God's choice are addressed to the disciples, so
you must be careful making a general app to all men. Read verse 69 "And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God." to which the Lord responded "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve,....? They were "chosen" before they believed. This is an excellent example of individual election to salvation.
And in "some of these verses...addressed to the disciples" Christ speaks of praying only for those the Father gave Him "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." Another excellent example of individual election to salvation. So, we must be careful not to miss all that Christ is teaching in these passages.
quote:
Rev 2:21 clearly says Jezebel was unwilling to repent.
I don't see how that changes the fact that they were unwilling to repent.
No one's arguing that Jezebel/the false prophets were unwilling to repent.
quote:
quote:
I don't understand why when there is joy in heaven at a sinner's repentance this would somehow oppose election. It is the responsibility of everyone to repent and believe; but, because we are in bondage to sin and Satan, we won't. Our moral inability does not remove the culpability for our actions. Heaven is happy the mortal man responded, when all along they knew he would? I don't get it. What I don't get is why you think the angels of Luke 15:10 are omniscient? Why wouldn't they be joyful at the salvation of the sinner? Aren't you joyful when you think someone you know has responded to the Gospel?
quote:
quote:
No, actually the answer lies in God's judgment for sin "in the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die". Because man was spiritually dead in sin and in rebellion to God "his every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Adam was not spiritually dead when he sinned, Kman. Yes, I'm aware of that and did not say that he was. You asked: "why was God "sorry he ever created man"? The answer lies in free will, not double predestination"
I said the answer lies in God's judgment for sin which was declared when Adam sinned. IOW, not in free will or some double predestination.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/11/2008 4:09:22 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3886
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
I don't throw out any verses; but, neither do I apply universality to
verses which are not teaching it.
Neither do I. "Many are invited, but few are chosen."
Many other verses speak to the universal call upon men. All who have heard the Gospel have been "called". When you mentioned "universality" I thought you meant universal atonement.
quote:
quote:
Is that really what you believe…”that man doesn’t choose”?
I don’t think that’s an accurate assessment of your beliefs. Afterall, you
do say man chooses to respond or chooses not to respond….do you not? The revelation of God is apparent to all men. It should be apparent but it's not to many. Besides, it’s not sufficient to bring men to salvation.
quote:
Some believe and some don't. Maybe some are chosen for purpose - true.
John 6:70 is a good example of this.
Some of the verses on God's choice are addressed to the disciples, so
you must be careful making a general app to all men. Read verse 69 "And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God." to which the Lord responded "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve,....? They were "chosen" before they believed. This is an excellent example of individual election to salvation.
And in "some of these verse...addressed to the disciples" Christ speaks of praying only for those the Father gave Him "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." Another excellent example of individual election to salvation. So, we must be careful not to miss all that Christ is teaching in these passages.
quote:
Rev 2:21 clearly says Jezebel was unwilling to repent.
I don't see how that changes the fact that they were unwilling to repent.
No one's arguing that Jezebel/the false prophets were unwilling to repent.
quote:
quote:
I don't understand why when there is joy in heaven at a sinner's repentance this would somehow oppose election. It is the responsibility of everyone to repent and believe; but, because we are in bondage to sin and Satan, we won't. Our moral inability does not remove the culpability for our actions. Heaven is happy the mortal man responded, when all along they knew he would? I don't get it. What I don't get is why you think the angels of Luke 15:10 are omniscient? Why wouldn't they be joyful at the salvation of the sinner? Aren't you joyful when you think someone you know has responded to the Gospel?
quote:
quote:
No, actually the answer lies in God's judgment for sin "in the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die". Because man was spiritually dead in sin and in rebellion to God "his every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Adam was not spiritually dead when he sinned, Kman. Yes, I'm aware of that and did not say that he was. You asked: "why was God "sorry he ever created man"? The answer lies in free will, not double predestination"
I responded with “the answer lies in God's judgment for sin” which was declared when Adam sinned. IOW, not in free will or some double predestination.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/11/2008 4:12:46 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3886
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
God knows all possible outcomes of all possible decisions. Where do we find this in Scripture?....we don't. No, instead we find God doing the deciding not figuring out possible outcomes.
The LORD works out everything for his own ends—even the wicked for a day of disaster.
The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.
quote:
His sovereignty and foreknowledge is much, much more complicated than Calvinism's "God in a box" determinist view. Complicated?...what's complicated is why you won't study the "foreknowledge" verses to see for yourself that the word does not mean simply knowing something in advance.
quote:
Conditional statements (if man does X or Y) make no sense if determinism it true. Huh? If you don't believe, you won't go to heaven. Why would that negate determinism?
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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