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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/7/2008 5:34:02 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3886
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Is that what Kelman said ?
Or is that what you THINK he said ?
What do you believe his theology to be ?
Manna - does it really matter what I think Kelman's theolgoy is? Sure it matters if we're going to discuss our theology, don't you think? Why discuss such matters if you have no desire to accurately understand what I believe?
quote:
Acts 19:2(NIV)
and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
-->When do we receive the Holy Spirit? Read the context. It is clear these Ephesians were not saved. When Paul checked on them, he found two things: one, they had not yet become saved(the Holy Spirit had not come upon them); and two, they had been baptized with John's baptism. It was not valid. They had to be baptized more correctly in the name of Christ.
quote:
Galatians 3:2
I would like to learn just one thing from you:
Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law,
or by believing what you heard?
--->How did we receive they Holy Spirit?
Verse 1 teaches that Jesus Christ has been set before them. He, therefore, is in full view. He can be heard only by those who have been given spiritual ears. If someone has been given spiritiual ears, then God works through their hearing to accomplish the salvation of that person.
So, verse 2 indicates that we are saved by the hearing of Christ. God has given spiritual ears to those He is saving so that they hear that Christ is the only way to salvation. This is reinforced in verse 3. "He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"
quote:
Eph 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation.
Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
--->Isn't receiving the Holy Spirit a future event after believing?
No, it is not and this verse does not say otherwise. It says the believer is sealed by the Holy Spirit, which means that an integral part of the work God has done in saving us is that He has sealed us with the indwelling Holy Spirit who already has given the believer eternal life and a new resurrected soul. It is more correctly translated "in whom also believing ye were sealed".
quote:
Acts 8"13-15
Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip,
and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.
Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God,
they sent them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them
that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
--->Another example of post-believing receiving? No, it is not and this verse does not say otherwise either. First, Simon was not saved. These verses help to point out that Scripture shows us different types of faith - faiths that are not salvific. Read the rest of the chapter to discover the condition of Simon's heart. It most definitely was not the heart of a true believer.
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I could go on, Manna. Good, because so can I.
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When did the Apostles receive the Holy Spirit, before or after they believed?
After. Nope, not true at all. Pick your verses and let's discuss them.
quote:
Here is the biblical pattern of regeneration:
Repent
Believe
Receive (forgiveness)
Receive (Holy Spirit) I don't know where you got your "pattern" from; but, I do know you didn't get it from Scripture.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/7/2008 5:59:24 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3886
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
K-man gave a representation in this post of FG theology comparing it with Easy believism,Cheap grace, Actually, I said "It is not hard to understand why this has been labeled "easy believism".
quote:
accusing it of teaching unrepented sin, etc. etc… But, you and FG fight so hard to prove Solomon was saved even though, according to you, he never repented. Why do so if this is not what your theology teaches?...that people can be saved even if they don't repent. I don't think I'm presenting an unfair view of the FGM.
quote:
I will never ever agree that it is so.THerefore -we should agree to disagree on this, arguing is pointelss. If someone wants to critize easy believism etc – go ahead. ut that is not the same thing that Stanley teaches. I said it's not hard to understand why he and the others can be said to hold to an "easy believism" gospel. If someone once believed, but, then totally renounced his faith, we're told he is saved.....why? A much more biblical position is that he never truly believed to begin with. Afterall, it's not as if the Bible doesn't present us with many examples of faith that is not salvific.
I get the idea you're unhappy with me and I am sorry that my posts, upset, annoyed, disgusted or just plain made you angry....hopefully, though, it just annoyed you a bit. I've never learned to "sweeten-up" my words but I will try harder because I don't want you annoyed with me, Odeliya :)
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/7/2008 6:29:44 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2366
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
I don't know what your point is about KJV only.
Sorry, I'm hypersensitive about it.
quote:
One can have as much faith as he can muster; but, unless the Holy Spirit
applies the Word of God to his heart and forms salvific faith within it, he is not saved.
Does he receive the Holy Spirit before he believes?
quote:
God is pretty clear that "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you".
So you throw out all the universal verses too?
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If God simply looked for and saved those who came to Him of their
innate free will, then He could not speak of them as being chosen.
It would be incorrect because God would not have done the choosing;
it would be man's choosing.
I don't believe man chooses - he responds to the draw of God.
Second, if man has no free will to repent, why does God wait?
Rejoice? What can Rev 2:21 mean if there is noability to repent?
Why does the Bible say God desires men to repent if they are chosen?
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So, you see there is no way that what God presents as election is not
precisely what He says it is - that He in His sovereignty chooses those
whom He will save.
I understand what you're saying, but election doesn't have to mean selection.
Karl Barth says Jesus is God's elect man and all who believe are elect in him
I agree with this.
I think the goal of predestination in Rom 8:29 and Eph 1:4 is christlikeness not heaven.
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The question is why do they have hardened and impenitent hearts?
Yes it is. Adam didn't sin and Jesus didn't die for God to save a few.
All of mankind fell and all of mankind could be redeemed but won't
for the same reason Adam sinned.
quote:
One thing we know is Adam had a perfectly free will...not much of a
leap to understand that would probably be #1 on the list of why he sinned.
Did free will die when Adam died?
I don't get it. Calvinists acknowledge free will but then their view of
sovereignty excludes it.
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Seth was the progenitor of the godly line of mankind that was saved in the flood....I'd say God's choice of him was very specific. It was not until Seth's descendents, and as they multiplied, that men began to call on the name of the Lord, perhaps in a more formal or religious settings....obviously, Seth taught his children well.
Speculation.
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No, actually the only thing lethal is your failure to understand that it is not
possible for God to change His mind. To insist that God changes His mind is to insist
God is lacking in perfect knowledge.
He responds to man's decisions. We see it in Ex 32:14; Jer 18:7-10 and Amos 7:1-6.
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Whether you realize it or not your position is that God's state of mind
before the so-called "change" would have been deficient, ignorant and imperfect.
That position assails God's perfection - is that really where you want to go?
K - why was God "sorry he ever created man"?
The answer lies in free will, not double predestination.
quote:
quote:
Of course, man is able to repent; and, he will do so once God grants him this gift.
Then please explain Ex 32:14; Jer 18:7-10; Amos 7:1-6 and Jonah 3:9?
Repentance is a condition, not an entitlement nor a gift to the chosen ones. Condition?...possibly. Entitlement?...never. Gift?....God says it is.
Would you deal with those verses and tell me if God responds to man?
At least you admit repentance is "possibly" a condition.
quote:
God gives us all time to repent and many of us actually do repent of some
of our sins. We actually do cry out to God for mercy and try to live more obediently
to His Word. Jezebel did none of these things. She wanted nothing to do with the truth.
She perferred her idolatry.
I'm confused. I thought repentance was an act of God, a gift of God?
You mean we can be granted repentance, but only on our time and if we are willing?
So much for irresistible grace I guess.
Are you telling me God can choose to save a person but that person can refuse?
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Don't get me wrong none of this "repenting" we do is a basis for salvation.
'Scuse me? You speaking of after we are saved I hope.
quote:
Man has a conscience and some of God's laws are written on our hearts,
therefore, many do give up evil practices.
Yes. This is the internal moral witness we are all born with.
Thats how an atheist knows murder is wrong, even if they don't know why.
This is how men are able to recognize their own sin. I agree with
Sproul this is the first step in the process of repentance.
quote:
Sometimes, though, they do so to evade the consequences of the law.
Not sure what you mean here.
quote:
Faith is a gift. How so? A gift man gives to himself?
When men repent God enables them to believe. Along with the
change of mind from sin and to God comes the "opening" necessary to believe.
But faith is also a spiritual gift and some believers have more faith than others.
quote:
While both repentance and faith are necessary, they are not the same thing.
As you said, it is a two-sided coin. Clearly, we cannot have one without the other -
and both are the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives.
But the Bible calls on the wicked to repent and says nothing about the Holy Spirit.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/7/2008 7:50:34 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1678
Joined: 12/2/2006
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People are saved by the grace of God.
That means salvation is of unmerited favor.
Unmerited favor implies that nothing at all was done by the person to merit salvation.
Repentance, faith, good works, or any other condition or list of conditions that the human being would have to meet to merit salvation would mean the human did something to merit it.
Here is a really good article on faith and repentance;
http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/faith-and-repentance/
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/7/2008 9:35:51 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1773
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
People are saved by the grace of God.
People are saved by grace through faith .
quote:
That means salvation is of unmerited favor.
No one disagree's .
quote:
Unmerited favor implies that nothing at all was done by the person to merit salvation.
No one disagree's .
quote:
Repentance, faith, good works, or any other condition or list of conditions that the human being would have to meet to merit salvation would mean the human did something to merit it.
Faith merits nothing : the example of Abraham proves it . For what saith the Scripture ? Abraham believed God , and it was counted unto him for righteousness .
If faith merited anything , then God could not have counted , reckoned , imputed , righteousness to Abraham , God would have had to have paid righteousness to Abraham .
But to him that worketh not , but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly , his faith is counted (imputed) for righteousness .
Not paid , not merited ; faith merits nothing . Faith is the polar opposite of human effort .
quote:
Here is a really good article on faith and repentance;
http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/faith-and-repentance/
KJB
Yeah , here is a really good article , heavely laden with Calvinist presuppositions , written no doubt by a devout Calvinist , loaded with Calvinist opinions .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/7/2008 10:01:18 AM
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mcleod
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Joined: 4/4/2006
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One more question for you calvins. Why is it that you will use the passage of Romans 8, give a very large picture of anyone to have salvation. Yet when it comes down to it you will say that God chose us for salvation. Hum.. does this make sense?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/7/2008 1:06:19 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1621
Joined: 3/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
One more question for you calvins. Why is it that you will use the passage of Romans 8, give a very large picture of anyone to have salvation. Yet when it comes down to it you will say that God chose us for salvation. Hum.. does this make sense?
God uses the means of the word of God to bring to salvation His elect.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/7/2008 2:32:10 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2380
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
...can be said to hold to an "easy believism" gospel. If someone once believed, but, then totally renounced his faith, we're told he is saved.....why? A much more biblical position is that he never truly believed to begin with. Afterall, it's not as if the Bible doesn't present us with many examples of faith that is not salvific.
Yes,probably the vast majority of people who have renounced their faith or live like the devil were never saved. But there are even biblical exceptions, like Solomon, so it is possible in some cases to be an atheist or pagan and be saved still.
I agree that its dangerous to put faith in "profession" or "feelings "or "answered altar call". But i disagree that works are a definite proof of salvation either.
Bottom line is - nobody can judge the salv status of another, but God.
What I understand as Easy Believism is modern religion for sale, church "business" using marketing techniques, etc. Church can be firmly LS and still be an Easy Believism place in practice. Preaching and actually living something are 2 diff . things, and I’ve attended enough churches already to see that often what is fiery preached is not lived by neither the pastors nor their congregation.
Shema told ab. pastors trying to please their customers by redefining what biblical baptism is to get a bigger market share.Those tricks i dont approve.
I think both views LS and FG if not taken out of intended context,are good teachings and not contradictory.We need to strive to run the race. And yes, we cant outsin the grace given.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/7/2008 2:35:10 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2380
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
I've never learned to "sweeten-up" my words but I will try harder because I don't want you annoyed with me, Odeliya :)
media now uses the stylish version :"pork up". instead of "sweeten" :)
Ah, don’t be too easy on me K, I shouldn’t be getting annoyed by something minor like different opinions. when I freelanced for a paper and one article got some strong bashing from an editor who i knew as friend, my boss at the time said, "hodel,the only way to avoid disagreements and criticism from friends is to refrain from having friends at all. And what is life without them?"
I need an extra helping of self control (fruit of the Spirit) I use broomstick to move around, saves on gas, but there is no excuse to be a full blown witch! Why am I lashing out on poor TC? He is God loving good brother, has good godly intentions but not in my debating league,he doesnt know how to do it . When it comes to debates I usually carve up such fellows for breakfast.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/7/2008 8:19:37 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1678
Joined: 12/2/2006
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umcbee,
quote:
Faith merits nothing : the example of Abraham proves it . For what saith the Scripture ? Abraham believed God , and it was counted unto him for righteousness .
If faith merited anything , then God could not have counted , reckoned , imputed , righteousness to Abraham , God would have had to have paid righteousness to Abraham .
But to him that worketh not , but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly , his faith is counted (imputed) for righteousness .
Not paid , not merited ; faith merits nothing . Faith is the polar opposite of human effort .
Try looking at the situation from a perspective as if the faith came from or was caused by God in the first place......as such, no payment is required. You dont have to agree with that concept but do you at least see where I am coming from to see how I reach my conclusion?
It reminds me of this text;
For who makes you differ from another?
And what do you have that you did not receive?
Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?
So who makes you differ from another?
The obvious answer that was being put forth in that text is "God".
"God" is the one that made you differ.
Look at it from another perspective from John 3;
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.
If faith merits nothing at all......what would be the problem with the absence of faith?
What would be the big deal?
It should be no big deal not to have any faith at all if it merits nothing at all.
The text seems to show that the rejection of Jesus Christ merits something.
If the heart and mind of men are caused by God to have faith and repent from a rejection of Jesus Christ......indeed the action of the person would still not merit anything. That perspective comes from the concept that people are saved by grace which certainly means God will provide repentance and faith to those He saves.
quote:
Yeah , here is a really good article , heavely laden with Calvinist presuppositions , written no doubt by a devout Calvinist , loaded with Calvinist opinions .
LOL......yeah it is a pretty good article laden with all sorts of "Calvinistic stuff" that makes pretty good sense.
I can see the point he makes in his article.
Take care,
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/7/2008 8:24:15 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2366
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
so it is possible in some cases to be an atheist or pagan and be saved still.
This is God's plan?
This is something possible?
This is something God would allow in order to build his church?
I think this is an overbalanced, reactionary view against the idea that fruit/judging salvation?
Could you direct me to the Scriptures about Solomon on
which you based your view?
"His grace to me was not without effect" should be our motto.
Gal 2:20 should be our theme.
Not denying the power of God to save and keep, but not persevere.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/7/2008 8:30:31 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2366
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
What I understand as Easy Believism is modern religion for sale, church "business" using marketing techniques, etc. Church can be firmly LS and still be an Easy Believism place in practice.
No, this is cultural Christianity, not easy believism.
Easy believism is an adulteration of the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.
EB is a man-centered, decisionism theology whereby a man is saved
by a 'decision', a sinners prayer, or some other false way of manipulating.
EB depreciates the work of God in salvation by substituting a simple "choice"
made by man, denying the fact that nobody comes to a 'decision' without
being drawn by the Holy Spirit.
quote:
Preaching and actually living something are 2 diff . things, and I’ve
attended enough churches already to see that often what is fiery preached
is not lived by neither the pastors nor their congregation.
There might be a problem or might not, then.
The opposite of sinless perfection is NOT faithless living!
quote:
I think both views LS and FG if not taken out of intended context, are
good teachings and not contradictory.We need to strive to run the race.
And yes, we cant outsin the grace given.
One of my favorite pastors says this:
You have won the race, now run the race!
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2008 9:12:05 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1773
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
umcbee,
quote:
Faith merits nothing : the example of Abraham proves it . For what saith the Scripture ? Abraham believed God , and it was counted unto him for righteousness .
If faith merited anything , then God could not have counted , reckoned , imputed , righteousness to Abraham , God would have had to have paid righteousness to Abraham .
But to him that worketh not , but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly , his faith is counted (imputed) for righteousness .
Not paid , not merited ; faith merits nothing . Faith is the polar opposite of human effort .
Try looking at the situation from a perspective as if the faith came from or was caused by God in the first place......as such, no payment is required. You dont have to agree with that concept but do you at least see where I am coming from to see how I reach my conclusion?
Yes , I see how you reach your conclusion ; and I don't agree with it . Especially if you base that conclusion on the verses you quoted below :
quote:
It reminds me of this text;
For who makes you differ from another?
And what do you have that you did not receive?
Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?
So who makes you differ from another?
The obvious answer that was being put forth in that text is "God".
"God" is the one that made you differ.
I believe that you carry 1 Cor 4:7 to far and apply what it means to the wrong subject . You apply it to faith ; but there is no evidence from the text or context , nor any other text for that matter to arrive at your conclusion .
Look at it from this perspective :
Romans 12:4-8 For as we have many menbers in one body , and all members have not the same office [function] :
So we , being many , are one body in Christ , and every one members one of another .
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given us , whether prophecy , let us prophesy according to the protion of faith ;
Or ministry , let us wait on our ministering : or he that teacheth , on teaching ;
Or he that exhorteth , on exhortation : he that giveth , let him do it with simplicity ; he that ruleth , with diligence ; he that showeth mercy , with cheerfulness .
And Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ .
These verse's say that all believers has been granted some spiritual capability to serve God and contribute to the churches growth . Jesus determines both what gift each believer is given , and the amount [measure] of that gift . Two different believers in any congregation may have the same gift , but one may have a greater measure of that gift than the other .
If you notice in 1 Cor 4:6b that no one of you be puffed up for one against another .
Paul uses a simular caution and instruction in Romans 12:9 , 10 . I don't believe the verse you quoted deals with faith as being given , but rather as with spiritual gifts as being given : that's the bases for Pauls warning to the Corinthians of not to think of men above that which is written . (I Cor 4:6)
All these Corinthians have in the way of spiritual gifts or pastor's or teachers have been given to them by Jesus : thats why Paul asks the question of them as what hast thou that thou didst not receive ? Apparently , some in the church were glorying as Paul warns in 1 Cor 3:21-23 .
quote:
Look at it from another perspective from John 3;
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.
If faith merits nothing at all......what would be the problem with the absence of faith?
The problem of the absence of faith is the certainty of facing God's judgment .
quote:
What would be the big deal?
Surely you can see that for yourself .
quote:
It should be no big deal not to have any faith at all if it merits nothing at all.
See above
quote:
The text seems to show that the rejection of Jesus Christ merits something.
If you consider facing God's judgment as meriting (earning) something , have at it .
quote:
If the heart and mind of men are caused by God to have faith and repent from a rejection of Jesus Christ......indeed the action of the person would still not merit anything.
That would leave man with no responsibility to repent or come to Christ in faith . And thats the problem ; man is commanded to repent and believe .
quote:
That perspective comes from the concept that people are saved by grace which certainly means God will provide repentance and faith to those He saves.
That concept is all it is , a concept , and one that I don't see any Scriptural support for .
quote:
Yeah , here is a really good article , heavely laden with Calvinist presuppositions , written no doubt by a devout Calvinist , loaded with Calvinist opinions .
quote:
LOL......yeah it is a pretty good article laden with all sorts of "Calvinistic stuff" that makes pretty good sense.
I can see the point he makes in his article.
Take care,
KJB
No offence to you ; but all I can see is that his article is pointless when I compare it with Scripture .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2008 9:18:49 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1773
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
What I understand as Easy Believism is modern religion for sale, church "business" using marketing techniques, etc. Church can be firmly LS and still be an Easy Believism place in practice.
No, this is cultural Christianity, not easy believism.
Easy believism is an adulteration of the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.
EB is a man-centered, decisionism theology whereby a man is saved
by a 'decision', a sinners prayer, or some other false way of manipulating.
EB depreciates the work of God in salvation by substituting a simple "choice"
made by man, denying the fact that nobody comes to a 'decision' without
being drawn by the Holy Spirit.
quote:
Preaching and actually living something are 2 diff . things, and I’ve
attended enough churches already to see that often what is fiery preached
is not lived by neither the pastors nor their congregation.
There might be a problem or might not, then.
The opposite of sinless perfection is NOT faithless living!
quote:
I think both views LS and FG if not taken out of intended context, are
good teachings and not contradictory.We need to strive to run the race.
And yes, we cant outsin the grace given.
One of my favorite pastors says this:
You have won the race, now run the race!
Then everything you just said contradicts the words of "One of your favorite pastors ." Since he states "You have won the race"
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2008 3:25:23 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2366
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
Then everything you just said contradicts the words of "One of your favorite pastors ."
Since he states "You have won the race"[/quote
To the contrary, it validates what I said.
He is referring to the totality of our Christian life on earth:
Justification by faith and the Sanctification of the Believer.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2008 7:42:30 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 612
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: offline
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quote:
so it is possible in some cases to be an atheist or pagan and be saved still.
This is the most ludicrous statement i have ever read.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2008 7:51:25 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2366
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
so it is possible in some cases to be an atheist or pagan and be saved still.
This is the most ludicrous statement i have ever read.
There are many who believe it.
And they are right here on these forums.
This is what false teaching on OSAS has done.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2008 8:04:00 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
You completely missed my point.
I don't miss your point, I don't believe it has an ounce of merit...
quote:
This verse is clearly telling us God can act based on man's response.
You act as if man's response isn't already known beforehand...
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John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2008 8:04:22 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1678
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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umcbee,
quote:
No offence to you ; but all I can see is that his article is pointless when I compare it with Scripture .
Ok.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2008 8:08:28 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Wicked men can do good and moral things.
And God says they are evil, sinful and abominations...
quote:
Would you please examine the verses I cited in post 3329 to Manna and
explain to me how we are regenerated before we are saved.
After you explain how the flesh can please God...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2008 10:28:59 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1678
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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umcbee,
quote:
Yes , I see how you reach your conclusion ; and I don't agree with it . Especially if you base that conclusion on the verses you quoted below :
quote:
You apply it to faith ; but there is no evidence from the text or context , nor any other text for that matter to arrive at your conclusion .
I think the text does apply.
For who makes you differ from another?
And what do you have that you did not receive?
Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?
One point of the text would be who made you to differ from another?
You have faith.....another does not.....what exactly and specifically made you differ? That was part of the point in the article. Would the difference between you and the one without faith be attributed to an act of your own mind, heart, or will?
Another point would be to point out that you received your faith from the One that made you to differ......so why boast as if you had this faith all on your own and did not receive it?
Do you see what I mean with those two points?
It would go along the same lines as; for to you it has been granted not only to believe in Him, but to suffer for His sake.........
Faith which one receives is a grant.
Suffering which one may receive is also a grant.
I think the free-will POV is that people have faith and believe by themselves and did not receive it from God.
These were a few of the things we were all told from a free-will POV and which I do not agree with;
quote:
You claim Scripture declares God gives saving faith, yet you produce NO verse with that clearly stated.
quote:
If faith is a gift from God, Jesus HAD NO RIGHT to either chide or praise anyone for the faith they express. That is my point. Can you actually address that?
quote:
The fact that Jesus chided people for their lack of faith and praised others for their great faith PROVES that faith comes from within man, and not God.
Those quotes would seem to imply that faith was not a gift that we recieved from God which would imply that we did not receive faith at all but somehow did it all on our own.
I cant agree with those quotes and what they would imply.......can you?
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2008 10:44:00 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2380
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
so it is possible in some cases to be an atheist or pagan and be saved still.
This is the most ludicrous statement i have ever read.
you r right, Fishie, thanks .... 
my grammar is so lame on occasion! What is "saved still"? It should be "still saved"! What a dummy i am. As the saying goes "I am not a complete idiot - some parts are still missing"
Ok, I will redo-it:
so it is possible in some cases to be an atheist or pagan and still remain saved.
Is it better like this?
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2008 11:16:28 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2380
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Easy believism is an adulteration of the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.
EB is a man-centered, decisionism theology whereby a man is saved
by a 'decision', a sinners prayer, or some other false way of manipulating.
EB depreciates the work of God in salvation by substituting a simple "choice"
made by man, denying the fact that nobody comes to a 'decision' without
being drawn by the Holy Spirit.
Right, but isnt it what actually plagues the modern business oriented church culture that only worries about the numbers, so called growth, new building, ministries, show-off and other "bling"? to have cash you need attendance, to get attendance you need to please and reduce the criteria of admission into "family of God", so sinners prayer is declared to be enough! its just what the doctor ordered ! 
quote:
Could you direct me to the Scriptures about Solomon on
which you based your view?
I dare not to insult you by suggesting there are something in the Bible you haven't read yet, and I will open your eyes by pointing those verses out.
So you think Sol was lost when he became a worshipper of pagan gods? As in: he was saved- then got lost - then repented and became saved again ? I disagree. I believe that salvation, once obtained, can not be lost by misbehaivor.
Yes or no answer please, friend- Was Sol saved during the time he was a pagan? Or was he lost during those years?
Fish - the above is obligatory for you to read as well, it will be of help, trust me.You appear to be confused a bit on the issue of osas...
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2008 11:22:22 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 612
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: offline
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