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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/14/2008 6:13:23 AM
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_jjp_
Posts: 483
Joined: 10/25/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
This is the same sort of thing that the US has engaged in in the past throughout Central and South America It's important to consider the issue with Georgia in context; it's certainly no worse than the coupe the CIA sponsored in Chile that brought Pinochet to power in 1973.
And what the US did in 1973 has exactly what to do with the current situation? It makes me ill when I hear the derailment of debates by these red herrings.
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/14/2008 10:48:00 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1966
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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There will be a war with Russia (Ezekiel 38 and 39) but not before Putin realigns the old USSR. There will be rhetoric from all sides during this process but no action….because Putin has his hand on the energy spigot of the EU.
The USA has no sway over the actions of Putin, short of nuclear war and God is not ready for that action just yet.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/14/2008 10:52:28 AM
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blue1914
Posts: 407
Joined: 6/21/2005
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Well, I don't know if I'm the best one to comment on the rapture one way or the other. Additionally , the Ezekiel prophecy may best be described as one of the 'birth pangs' Jesus talked about in Matthew 24-it is a signal of the signal of the end, not necessarily the end itself.
What IS interesting to me is how the events of today just fit all too comfortably into the events as described in the Word of God-here's an example.
Look at some of the other nations metioned-in particular Meshech and Tubal. They are considered "Scytian" nations. Here's a little info on the Scythians:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians
Now, take a quick look at a map of Asia- Georgia is squarely on the west edge of what would be considered Sycthia in the ancient world. In fact, if you look at many of the Caucus republics, you see that they tend to make up the balance of the region known as Scythia.
The Georgian president was quite correct when he admonished the U.S. that this is a battle for the region-we know that as well, that's why we were cozying up to Georgia and others in that region-we wanted to create a buffer in that region between Europe and Russia. Now that Russia has aggressed, the republics in that region will be closely watching the U.S. response-if they find that their faith has been misplaced (as in the U.S. will not protect them should they suffer invasion) they will cut and run-they are not strong enough to try to stand against Russia. With a majority of the countries in that region as allies to Russia, they have a de facto 'bloc' so to speak which they can use to drive policy in that region of the world. That's what the U.S. was trying to prevent, but we may be too late to do anything about it-our resources are stretched worldwide and short of military intervention in the region, we may not show our "allies" that we are able to make good on our diplomatic promises-and to be quite honest, military intervention is a non-starter right now from a U.S. military perspective. Not only will it spoil very delicate diplomatic efforts over many years, it will further tax an overtaxed military.
Now, look at that region-what is the default position of the majority of the nations in that region of the world-anti-Israel. Where does the U.S. find itself-Israels best ally. Yet one more "east vs. west" impetus for agression on the part of the nations in that region.
Is this an overnight process-unlikely, as there are several other pieces that need to fit into the puzzle that have not just yet (the other republics in Russia's back pocket, carte blanche from China to invade in the region-that will be tricky and finally a significant "impetus" - though that can be easily manufactured) but the wheels are firmly in motion. If the U.S. continues to react as it has, we make the fall of the former republics an almost assured certainty.
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/14/2008 11:47:15 AM
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huskarine
Posts: 444
Joined: 7/31/2008
From: Wheaton, IL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blue1914
Well, I don't know if I'm the best one to comment on the rapture one way or the other. Additionally , the Ezekiel prophecy may best be described as one of the 'birth pangs' Jesus talked about in Matthew 24-it is a signal of the signal of the end, not necessarily the end itself.
What IS interesting to me is how the events of today just fit all too comfortably into the events as described in the Word of God-here's an example.
Look at some of the other nations metioned-in particular Meshech and Tubal. They are considered "Scytian" nations. Here's a little info on the Scythians:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians
Now, take a quick look at a map of Asia- Georgia is squarely on the west edge of what would be considered Sycthia in the ancient world. In fact, if you look at many of the Caucus republics, you see that they tend to make up the balance of the region known as Scythia.
The Georgian president was quite correct when he admonished the U.S. that this is a battle for the region-we know that as well, that's why we were cozying up to Georgia and others in that region-we wanted to create a buffer in that region between Europe and Russia. Now that Russia has aggressed, the republics in that region will be closely watching the U.S. response-if they find that their faith has been misplaced (as in the U.S. will not protect them should they suffer invasion) they will cut and run-they are not strong enough to try to stand against Russia. With a majority of the countries in that region as allies to Russia, they have a de facto 'bloc' so to speak which they can use to drive policy in that region of the world. That's what the U.S. was trying to prevent, but we may be too late to do anything about it-our resources are stretched worldwide and short of military intervention in the region, we may not show our "allies" that we are able to make good on our diplomatic promises-and to be quite honest, military intervention is a non-starter right now from a U.S. military perspective. Not only will it spoil very delicate diplomatic efforts over many years, it will further tax an overtaxed military.
Now, look at that region-what is the default position of the majority of the nations in that region of the world-anti-Israel. Where does the U.S. find itself-Israels best ally. Yet one more "east vs. west" impetus for agression on the part of the nations in that region.
Is this an overnight process-unlikely, as there are several other pieces that need to fit into the puzzle that have not just yet (the other republics in Russia's back pocket, carte blanche from China to invade in the region-that will be tricky and finally a significant "impetus" - though that can be easily manufactured) but the wheels are firmly in motion. If the U.S. continues to react as it has, we make the fall of the former republics an almost assured certainty.
quote:
that region-what is the default position of the majority of the nations in that region of the world-anti-Israel. Where
you forgot to factor in SkyNet!!! 
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/14/2008 12:48:06 PM
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blue1914
Posts: 407
Joined: 6/21/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huskarine
you forgot to factor in SkyNet!!!
I hope you are right-that I am just a crazy conspiracy theorist. Unfortunately, current events are proving the craziest theories more and more each day.
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/14/2008 2:50:41 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1956
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
There will be a war with Russia (Ezekiel 38 and 39) but not before Putin realigns the old USSR. There will be rhetoric from all sides during this process but no action….because Putin has his hand on the energy spigot of the EU.
The USA has no sway over the actions of Putin, short of nuclear war and God is not ready for that action just yet.
Bob
Wait- I thought that the world was going to end on October 22, 1844! Or in 1000 AD.
People have been predicting the end of the world for the past 2000 years. To suggest it will probably happen in our lifetimes is kinda silly.
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/14/2008 3:02:49 PM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10976
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
Status: offline
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quote:
People have been predicting the end of the world for the past 2000 years. To suggest it will probably happen in our lifetimes is kinda silly. Then by all means let us eat, drink and be merry, for we have no worries!
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/14/2008 3:53:11 PM
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AdrianaS
Posts: 1224
Joined: 3/21/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
A few things to ponder.
1. Russia's leadership will not be happy about the fact that the United States is airlifting Georgian troops from Iraq to help boost the Georgian ranks vs. the Russian forces.
2. These Georgian forces, while in Iraq, operated in an area very close to the border with Iran.
3. The fact that it is Russia, and not a country like Colombia, Paraguay, Bolivia, Nepal, Kampuchea, Ethiopia, Panama, or Eritrea doing the fighting vividly illustrates that in realpolitik, power is everything. The United States, even if it were not bogged down in two Middle Eastern quagmires, would not be launching a military offensive against a nation with the size, wealth, oil and gas resources, influence, military power, and nuclear arsenal of Russia.
4. President Mikhail Saakashvili may move westerners with shrill appeals for help and warnings about how the big-bad-evil-ex-commie/Soviets are about to destroy democracy, but Saakashvili is NO DEMOCRAT. He has charged Georgian politicians who opposed him with treason.
5. Russia did NOT draw first blood. There is controversy as to whether South Ossetians attacked Georgian territory or Georgian troops rolled in first, but the Russians entered the fray after the hostilities broke out.
6. Let the record clearly state that at least some elements of the Georgian military have engaged in acts that could possibly be adjudged to be war crimes - they have attacked a humanitarian convoy.
As I am not well-versed with the history of this region of the world, I will certainly welcome the input of Georgians and Russians who are participating here. I am not going to state an opinion on whether South Ossetia is Russian, Georgian, or neither; and, I wish to make it very clear I am hoping for an immediate cessation of hostilities. My heart goes out to those who have lost loved ones... we have seen way too many dead innocents in recent years, and as many of you know, the hundreds of thousands of dead in Iraq will certainly be remembered when God sits on His throne of judgment.
And I am sure agreeing with you! Plus I am less well versed in the history of the region than you...but what I am reading in researching among the conflicting info and etc particularly regarding what happened in the begging of this month and what led Saakashvilli atempts to invade South Osseia and end up provoking Russia and the rest is history and all the facts and etcs we may get know or not.. But for sure the Lord knowns!
Another situation that to me sounds childish is that in my mind is how te real intentions behind Georgia sending troops to Iraq, some mentioned to get some training..but I do believe that it may be with the hope that if they need help from US in the future, to remember that and go "protect" them and etc. Sorry to say is that US trully may protect just their own and some, because of their personal interest in the matter. Politics and politics are dirty corrupt games many do play for their own advantages. 
Yes, only the Lord will stand and protect everybody who trust in Him! Security here and eternal security, we do have in Him alone.
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/14/2008 4:42:47 PM
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TaoPoohBear
Posts: 554
Joined: 1/18/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
My answer was Kuwait.
Everyone else's was nit-picking my response.
Typical right-wing thinking; Petty & obtuse.
Yeah, let's not get caught up in facts and reality.
You obviously feel that killing civilians in the aggressor country by -
a U.S. led coalition to free a recognized country
is not the same reality as
the Russians to free an unrecognized independent province.
(It probably was pretty real to both civilian populations, however)
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/14/2008 4:56:18 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7784
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
You obviously feel that killing civilians in the aggressor country by -
a U.S. led coalition to free a recognized country
is not the same reality as
the Russians to free an unrecognized independent province.
Why would I? Why would anyone?
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/14/2008 5:14:11 PM
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AdrianaS
Posts: 1224
Joined: 3/21/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
My answer was Kuwait.
Everyone else's was nit-picking my response.
Typical right-wing thinking; Petty & obtuse.
Yeah, let's not get caught up in facts and reality.
You obviously feel that killing civilians in the aggressor country by -
a U.S. led coalition to free a recognized country
is not the same reality as
the Russians to free an unrecognized independent province.
(It probably was pretty real to both civilian populations, however)
Yes, people are dead and dying in wars and conflicts, they are just number of casualities of wars. 
Now, just looking at the situation of those 2 de facto provinces in Georgia...it is a mess, some say different % of people 50, 70, 90 have their Russian passports, have tides with Russian may feel they belong to Russia, their indepedence is not Internationality recognized and etc still the territory belongs to Georgia and they are considered "rebels" and dealings goes on that are not fruitful..well, and all of the sundenly "boom" the democratic Georgian President was irritaded with the situation going on and going and decided to attack!
In a confuse volitile situation like that who are going to just choose to attack ? Well, if people are being attacked by someone they will call their closest friends...then it make sense the Russians came..and by doing so than was the Georgians who dialed 911, the "whole" world particularly expecting US to do something, because comparing size power and etcs it would be a "fair match" confrontation. Sorry about my simplicity" I am simple and learning etc,  but to me the decison to attack 1st from Georgia's President, was a not wise decision at all, to are complex and messy situation. As much they were being bully "try" to keep restrain and come up with pacific solution.
Then we have the deads and casualities of war, because of unwise decision of engagements. It is sad and the world is turning and conflicts poping up and going on, it all become history and we are here just talking about "wars" but the ones who have war in the back/ front yard and living it are paying the price of theirs and others politics decisions. It sucks!
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/14/2008 5:17:13 PM
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radiorobert
Posts: 63
Joined: 5/6/2005
Status: offline
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It's sad really. 
I used to come on this board years ago when I first found it b/c it was a neat way to spend some idle time and discuss issues, but you could always be guaranteed that common sense would prevail.
Now it seems, so many even on here, are blind to whats happening.
You are so busy trying to avoid any sort of conflict and stay in your comfortable little world that you will look away from, or dismiss evil, happening right in front of your face.
Think about it from a common sense angle based on what you intelligently know.
Why would Russia, be in conflict at all, with a country that we and our allies are supporting? The same Russia that claims to be free and democratic now??
Why would it be necessary to control any part of the rest of Georgia to simply take S. Ossetia back if there were in fact problems???
Then couple all that with Putins rhetoric the last several years. AND Russia's coziness to Iran, a known terrorist supporting nation.
Heaven forbid we have to increase our military...spend more on defense...or, gasp, bring back a draft!!! 
Of course, when you're not sure what you stand for or believe in anymore, it's understandable you wouldn't be interested in preserving and protecting it.
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/14/2008 7:28:11 PM
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AdrianaS
Posts: 1224
Joined: 3/21/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
Let the record clearly state that at least some elements of the Georgian military have engaged in acts that could possibly be adjudged to be war crimes - they have attacked a humanitarian convoy.
Interesting to note your source for this RichLP. Interfax which does business mainly with russian and Chinese concerns, and who's top management is almost exclusively Russian, im sure their information is absolutely on the up and up without a hint of dis-information
I have no ideia about sources related to that incident, yet, ope we get the facts. But midia bias is heavy here in the US too. For this motive I do research others reggarding international affairs and at the moment I am with Brasilian and Slovenian sources, both correspondents at Tbilisi. For a country that is democratic having just 1 tv chanel that can only be seen at the capital showing the President talking about its victories and filtring all other informations, is the commom ways of propaganda in a country at war., I supose.
What I read in the correspondents notes: people are "not happy with the "stupidity" of the decision their President to attack South Osseia. The hate for Russia is greater then their dislike for the President. It seems the war changed the oppinion of the people about Nato, before the majority seemed against belong to it now they may had change their minds. There seems to be public manifestation going on in favor President, but correspondent although have not much data yet, it seems not authentic as when he/she talk with people there they seem want nothing to do with the President. The only line there is going on is at gas station because people got panic, they walked on the street and even drunk a beer and in the morning coffee at MacDonalds," - but all this is happening at the capital of Georgia.
Now, of course some people may see a Brasilian journalist as a comunist, socialist... and an Slovenia as an ex comunist missing the past..who knows? To me some people may be more objective and "neutral" then others, plus one never knows about censorship and propaganda going on in any side of situations, if they are right, left, middle and etc. I just want to get clean information with no bias - if that is possible, of course.
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/14/2008 10:44:07 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7784
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
Do any of these "sound good" enough for you?
Sounds like a nascent Democracy trying to move forward in the shadow of a former empire.
Are you at all familiar with American history?
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/14/2008 10:54:28 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1580
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Do any of these "sound good" enough for you?
Sounds like a nascent Democracy trying to move forward in the shadow of a former empire.
Forcibly silencing opponents - how democratic.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/15/2008 12:23:40 AM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1956
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wing2000
And who is going to pay for this military build up. The US is certainly not in a position give large amounts of military aid. I'm not convinced the current situation calls for a cold war solution.
This is a good point, but I would just say that all those troops we have in Iraq right now could be put to better use, and having them ensure a peacetime situation would be much less expensive than firing various missiles and having random tanks get blown up by terrorists.
The foreign policy of non-appeasement doesn't make a lot of sense when we use it to justify toppling a developing world regime like Iraq or Vietnam, but it makes a great deal of sense when we're dealing with another major power that's been on a nationalist course. Pacifism and appeasement simply can't work with countries that act like bullies and might be able to think they have a chance of defeating other world powers. We should do everything we possibly can to avoid a war, but at the very least, if we're dragged into one, we shouldn't be caught with our pants down like what happened to Poland in WWII.
Also, I don't think that sending Romania and Poland tanks, weapons, and training would cost even as much as spending three more months in Iraq would cost (maybe $25-$30 Billion would go a long way in deterring Russia). And if it simply helps avoid a war between Russia and Europe, that would save the US export economy a few hundred billion dollars on its own. I'm not 100% convinced that the EU would be able to defend Poland much better today.
quote:
It's good to see Secretary of State Rice is traveling to the region in the coming days...one might recall her primary area of expertise was the Soviet Union prior to becoming National Security Advisor and later Secretary of State. It would be interesting to see her take on Putin.
I'll be interested in hearing her comments on this, but I'm reminded of Neville Chaimberlain waving a peice of paper signed by Hitler and proclaiming "Peace in our time!" Going forward, let's just not put ourselves in a position where we have no choice but to trust Russia.
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/15/2008 11:23:07 AM
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TaoPoohBear
Posts: 554
Joined: 1/18/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Do any of these "sound good" enough for you?
Sounds like a nascent Democracy trying to move forward in the shadow of a former empire.
Are you at all familiar with American history?
Against the indians?
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