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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/12/2008 4:37:50 AM
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TaoPoohBear
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
But in a classic example of blowback, past American policy also bears some responsibility for the mess in Caucasus.
Sounds like Clinton policy was responsible for this.
I agree!
But -
quote:
Georgia, led by the American-educated Mikhail Saakashvili is firmly in the Western camp. Georgia has troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and has, with American support, been trying to become part of Nato.
President Saakashvili clearly feels he has the support of the Bush regime and this gave him the confidence to apparently break the ceasefire in South Ossetia and move against the separatists who feel that if it is okay for Kosovo to be recognised as an independent state, then it should be okay for them.
Some commentators have likened the situation to when Argentina moved to reclaim the Falklands. In trouble at home, with accusations of corruption and favouritism as well as claims of election fraud, Saakashvili has moved against his neighbour hoping his value to the West would provide a guarantee of support even in a crisis provoked by his own actions.
Early indications are that he is totally wrong and he now faces a strong military reaction from the Russians.
Georgia on US mind
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/12/2008 4:49:28 AM
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Kapa_brn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Georgian_
Russians tanks are now near city Gori, there is an information that they are going to attack Tbilisi, capital. We are awaiting......and are nervous.....
hm...our leaders deny this info, saying they have no aim to reach Tbilisi, but Reuters writes that Gori is now being bombed by Russian's air force, but there is a military base there!!
Even if your words about attacking Tbilisi and claim of Saakashvilli about Russia's goal to remove him from government is true, imho it's right decision. I think that president who let his army kill thousands of civilians should be overthrown and judged. I hope, when (and if) russian army comes to Tbilisi, georgian army won't enter the cityand it won't be bombed.
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/12/2008 5:09:02 AM
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TaoPoohBear
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U.S. knew Georgia trouble was coming, but couldn't stop it
quote:
"We knew they were going to go crack heads. We told them again and again not to do this," the State Department official said. "We thought we had an understanding with the Russians that any response would be South Ossetia-focused. Clearly it's not."
One problem in under-estimating the Russian response, another U.S. official said, was "a dearth of intelligence assets in the region."
U.S. "national technical means," the official name for spy satellites and other technology, are "pretty well consumed by Iraq, Afghanistan and now Pakistan," the official said, and there was only limited monitoring of Russian military movements toward the Georgian border.
Additionally, the United States had lost access to vital information when Russia dropped out of the Conventional Forces in Europe Treaty in December to protest U.S. plans to build missile defense sites in Europe.
Under the treaty, Russia had been required to exchange reports on troop, armor and aircraft deployments with the United States and other members on a monthly basis. But once Russia dropped out, that information was no longer available.
I don't think the Russians want to take the capital of Georgia (Tbilisi) so much as grind up the Georgian military wherever they may be. This is as much about humiliating Bush as it is Saakashvili; Russians have a long memory and a vengeful streak, get mad & get even.
Were Mikhail Saakashvili himself to go on the airwaves, relinquishing all claims to South Ossetia & Abkhazia, this crisis would end; The Russians would go home.
< Message edited by TaoPoohBear -- 8/12/2008 5:21:56 AM >
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/12/2008 5:39:00 AM
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_jjp_
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What I find interesting is how some of those who cry foul when Israel uses military force when it's troops are attacked on Israeli soil are the same ones who are defending Russia as it not only pushed the Georgian troops out of the contested zone but are bombing all over the country. I believe some consistency is in order. Oh wait I see the consistency, always side with the side that is against America. Good call.
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/12/2008 5:41:46 AM
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_jjp_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
I don't think the Russians want to take the capital of Georgia (Tbilisi) so much as grind up the Georgian military wherever they may be.
So it is OK for Russia to not only defend a contested territory but to destroy a sovereign nations military killing civilians along the way? Well in that case I can't understand why anyone would be upset with how Russia is handling this.
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/12/2008 8:06:14 AM
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Kapa_brn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
So it is OK for Russia to not only defend a contested territory but to destroy a sovereign nations military killing civilians along the way? Well in that case I can't understand why anyone would be upset with how Russia is handling this.
I can't say with confidence that killing civilians by Russian army haven't taken place, but i don't understand, why everyone forgets about what this war began with? U cry about dead georgians, me to, but why noone is praying for ossetians, why noone remembers about at least 2000 victims of georgian attacks at Tshinvalli? They are also homo sapiens, like everyone of us and they also deserve compassion.
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/12/2008 9:55:10 AM
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Kapa_brn
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As I know we can already congratulate one to the each other with the end of this War, I hope this conflict won't escalate and diplomatists will manage to stop bloodshed.
p.s. Russian media confirm about 1600 victims of night bombings of Tshinvalli and not 2000 as it was told earlier. My apologize for misinformation.
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/12/2008 10:44:54 AM
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Jhud
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I think little break away republic trying to maintain it's independence from the former oppressive empire that it was once a part of sounds familiar - not unlike the American Revolution. I can only hope we will be as good an ally to Georgia as France was to us.
And that is the last time I will use France as an example to emulate.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/12/2008 11:02:55 AM
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huangshan
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I think modern weapons and warfare makes any analogy to an event fought with conventional weapons extremely shaky.
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/12/2008 11:43:18 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
I think modern weapons and warfare makes any analogy to an event fought with conventional weapons extremely shaky.
I don't think weapons have anything to do with it - it's about supporting allies, continuing to contain Russia's expansionist tendencies, and not becoming the the UN; ineffective and self-conflicted.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/12/2008 11:54:01 AM
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huangshan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I think modern weapons and warfare makes any analogy to an event fought with conventional weapons extremely shaky.
I don't think weapons have anything to do with it - it's about supporting allies, continuing to contain Russia's expansionist tendencies, and not becoming the the UN; ineffective and self-conflicted.
In the Revolutionary War, France helped us as a war ally. When you suggest that we should support Georgia as France supported us, you'll have to forgive me if I feel that it sounds like you're advocating war with Russia.
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/12/2008 11:54:35 AM
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todd_t
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quote:
I don't think weapons have anything to do with it - it's about supporting allies.
Georgia is not an American ally.
quote:
In the Revolutionary War, France helped us as a war ally.
Not only that, the French crown supplied the continental army with critically needed funds to keep it from completely falling apart. I wonder how much US cash has been quietly shuttled Georgia's way in the past few years?
_____________________________
In Memoriam: 1st Sgt. Obediah Kolath, US Army, Died in Iraq War (1973-2005)
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/12/2008 12:11:52 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Georgia is not an American ally.
It certainly is. Unless you have some novel definition of 'ally' that I am unaware of.
quote:
Not only that, the French crown supplied the continental army with critically needed funds to keep it from completely falling apart. I wonder how much US cash has been quietly shuttled Georgia's way in the past few years?
Whatever the amount, hopefully we increase it, along with arms shipments.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/12/2008 12:44:21 PM
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colliefan
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again, this situation proves how useless is the UN.
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/12/2008 1:10:11 PM
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AdrianaS
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"Another" complicated conflict where nations, politics, politicians with their own agendas are involved around the world..another no quick fix situation.
Families are burying their deads loved ones, their homes destroyed in both sides of war the inocents suffers and the soldiers families mourning.
That is sad and happening all over the world, at least this one was a "short" one. May God have mercy and bring people to Himself as conflicts will grow and grow more, the still living in war zones or peaceful ones must be always prepered to leave this world, as we never know when our on apointed time maybe.
Even if we live in peaceful neighboorhood, we do have a spiritual war in commom going on of celestial proportions. Hopefuly the apparent peace some of us may have not being in a "real" war zone, will not distract us and we become complacent and etc we must be alert christians, anywhere we are living, now.
Praying for those who are mourning and in dispair.
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/12/2008 1:19:11 PM
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todd_t
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quote:
It certainly is. Unless you have some novel definition of 'ally' that I am unaware of.
Well, last time I checked America's allies were: Canada, the UK, Germany, Israel, S. Korea, Poland, Pakistan, Turkey, Iraq, and Japan.
quote:
Whatever the amount, hopefully we increase it, along with arms shipments.
Right, because history repeatedly shows us the wonderful track record of American involvement in isolated wars around the world (e.g. Afghanistan in the 80s, Iraq (in its war with Iran), Chile (Pinochet), Vietnam, etc).
_____________________________
In Memoriam: 1st Sgt. Obediah Kolath, US Army, Died in Iraq War (1973-2005)
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/12/2008 1:21:39 PM
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todd_t
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quote:
again, this situation proves how useless is the UN
For the zillionth time, the UN is primarily a diplomatic and humanitarian organization - not a military one like NATO.
_____________________________
In Memoriam: 1st Sgt. Obediah Kolath, US Army, Died in Iraq War (1973-2005)
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/12/2008 1:25:31 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Well, last time I checked America's allies were: Canada, the UK, Germany, Israel, S. Korea, Poland, Pakistan, Turkey, Iraq, and Japan.
What the basis of inclusion/exclusion? Is Australia an ally? France? Pakistan?
quote:
Right, because history repeatedly shows us the wonderful track record of American involvement in isolated wars around the world (e.g. Afghanistan in the 80s, Iraq, Chile, Vietnam, etc).
Actually, Afganistan had the wonderful result of ending the Soviet Union - and I am not sure why an 'isolated war' would be better or worse than a wide-ranging, multi-national war. In fact, I would say we should generally prefer isolated wars.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/12/2008 1:39:50 PM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10985
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
quote:
again, this situation proves how useless is the UN
For the zillionth time, the UN is primarily a diplomatic and humanitarian organization - not a military one like NATO.
Then why do they even pretend to have a "peace-keeping" force?
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/12/2008 1:44:46 PM
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todd_t
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quote:
What the basis of inclusion/exclusion? Is Australia an ally? France? Pakistan?
Much of Europe is considered a US military and strategic ally due to its membership in NATO (of which Georgia is not a member). As for the Aussies, although we have good relationship with them, to my knowledge they are not a formal US ally.
Pakistan is a unique sort of "ally" considering that, on one hand, they do provide support versus Al Qaeda, but also do not allow US troops to enter their borders. Frankly, I'm not sure what they are.
_____________________________
In Memoriam: 1st Sgt. Obediah Kolath, US Army, Died in Iraq War (1973-2005)
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/12/2008 1:46:46 PM
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todd_t
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quote:
Then why do they even pretend to have a "peace-keeping" force?
That is generally used in stop-gap situations when a cease-fire has been in place for a while. Such troops are lightly armed, and almost never even authorized to shoot at anyone.
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Actually, Afganistan had the wonderful result of ending the Soviet Union
I'm aware of that, but by providing arms and military advisors to the Muhajadin in the 1980s, the US enabled those same forces to later transmute into the Taliban and Al Qaeda - just as US support for Pinochet enabled him to execute his Chilean coup resulting in a dictatorship whereby thousands of political dissidents were murdered.
quote:
In fact, I would say we should generally prefer isolated wars.
Which is generally why the US should stay out of them (militarily).
< Message edited by todd_t -- 8/12/2008 1:54:35 PM >
_____________________________
In Memoriam: 1st Sgt. Obediah Kolath, US Army, Died in Iraq War (1973-2005)
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/12/2008 1:50:44 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Much of Europe is considered a US military and strategic ally due to its membership in NATO (of which Georgia is not a member). As for the Aussies, although we have good relationship with them, to my knowledge they are not a formal US ally.
Pakistan is a unique sort of "ally" considering that, on one hand, they do provide support versus Al Qaeda, but also do not allow US troops to enter their borders. Frankly, I'm not sure what they are.
Well then, if we are going to deal in shading here, in the sense that Georgia glady accepted our offer to fight along side us in Iraq, and have made overtures to join NATO, to that extent they are every bit our ally as Pakistan is - and more so than France.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/12/2008 1:57:17 PM
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todd_t
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It's not shading. It's what's on paper.
Georgia is not a US military ally in the sense that were a NATO ally like Turkey were invaded, America (and the rest of NATO) would be compelled to apply their own military forces to repel the invading force.
quote:
to that extent they are every bit our ally as Pakistan is - and more so than France
No, there's a key difference - France will allow US troops on their soil, but (again) Pakistan will not. One would think if Pakistan were truly our buddies, that stance would be different - especially as it would allow our Special Forces to go after Al Qaeda's leadership at the source.
_____________________________
In Memoriam: 1st Sgt. Obediah Kolath, US Army, Died in Iraq War (1973-2005)
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