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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/25/2008 10:50:25 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Does that seem fair? If not, why?
See my answer above. If you think that coffee is anywhere near as controlling as nicotine, I suggest you do a little research.
However, if you wish to substitute crack cocaine or heroin for coffee, maybe you'll have something on the same par in difficulty to quite as nicotine for most of its addicts.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/25/2008 10:54:19 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Either way you want to slice it, God's Holiness is being made obsolete by either one.
That means, of course, if you are right that Jesus sinned. Do you really want to go there?
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/25/2008 11:25:18 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 4106
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Just a reminder to the naysayers, weren't ya'll also the same ones who who proposed that the bar atmosphere in a church was an effective tool to witnessing?
It seems we have a double standard based not upon God's Word but upon personal preference and opinion. Jesus drank alcoholic wine without becoming an addict. With the sole exception of one poster's assertion to the contrary on this thread, I've never met anyone who smoked cigarettes long term without becoming addicted. So we have Jesus drinking alcohol in the form of wine. He made alcohol for consumption at the Cana wedding.
Do we have any reference to Him lighting up?
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/25/2008 11:39:55 AM
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JimboFletch
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Morning, Hayseed. You aren't any better at answering certain questions. I posed one you ignored in the thread that eventually was closed. But here 'tis again, if you're up to it this week:
How dare I assert that the usual pattern of tobacco use causes addiction - not moderation?
Try this on for size:
Nicotine is an addictive drug. It causes changes in the brain that make people want to use it more and more. In addition, addictive drugs cause unpleasant withdrawal symptoms. The good feelings that result when an addictive drug is present — and the bad feelings when it's absent — make breaking any addiction very difficult. Nicotine addiction has historically been one of the hardest addictions to break.
The 1988 Surgeon General's Report, "Nicotine Addiction," concluded that
-Cigarettes and other forms of tobacco are addicting.
-Nicotine is the drug that causes addiction.
-Pharmacologic and behavioral characteristics that determine tobacco addiction are similar to those that determine addiction to drugs such as heroin and cocaine.
SOURCE
Okay, your turn. You give us an authoritative source, something better than your say so that my statement is hogwash and that many if not most people use tobacco in moderation without addiction or problems quitting.
Dare you.
Double-dog dare you.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/25/2008 11:48:12 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
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Hiya, BackrowBaptist, I see ya lookin' in.
Regarding your relatives that had no problem quitting: I would appreciate you asking them to tell you how easy it was to quit. During my quit, I functioned at a high stress job and was with my wife evening & weekends - even took a week-long vacation with her, without talking about the agony of quitting. Just because someone isn't frothing at the mouth, screaming, or bashing their head against the wall doesn't mean the are not enduring the toughest time of their life. Not everyone acts like a sissy when they are suffering through withdrawal.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/25/2008 11:59:58 AM
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Hayseed
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Hey Jimbo, in case you haven't figured it out... I haven't been defending or advocating smoking for others. I've never said a word about it not being harmful nor addictive.
I just stated MY situation as for MYSELF. I have never spoke for anyone else but ME here. And the only reason I've said anything is because I don't seem to fit in your "universal truths based on the JimboFletch experience" (Hey, if you ever start a band... there's a great name!). You keep wanting to say I'm saying things that I'm not saying. You're also doing that to others. Now, like I've said before; you're omniscience is amazing and we'd like you to share your secrets of how you know what everybody else is "really" saying and what their "real" motives are.
I'm doggin' you on your "universal truths" and your mis-characterizing what other people are saying in this conversation.
I don't believe smoking, in and of itself, is a sin. However, "Bearing false witness" actually IS a sin.
< Message edited by Hayseed -- 8/25/2008 12:14:17 PM >
_____________________________
My entire goal in life is to live exactly like the man who was falsely accused of being a drunkard, heretic and a friend of sinners by the religious people. So, don't be surprised if I'm not too concerned if you think ill of me.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/25/2008 12:00:25 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 387
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Hiya, BackrowBaptist, I see ya lookin' in.
Regarding your relatives that had no problem quitting: I would appreciate you asking them to tell you how easy it was to quit. During my quit, I functioned at a high stress job and was with my wife evening & weekends - even took a week-long vacation with her, without talking about the agony of quitting. Just because someone isn't frothing at the mouth, screaming, or bashing their head against the wall doesn't mean the are not enduring the toughest time of their life. Not everyone acts like a sissy when they are suffering through withdrawal.
Hey Jimbo
Yep, ya caught me. I've gotta say, your descriptions of your struggles in quitting don't square with your assertions of difficulty. If withdrawl's as tough as you say, or as tough as heroin and crack (don't get me started on that asinine comparison), then you must be the most powerful trekker in the universe. Take down your Will Riker avatar and put in 'Q'.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/25/2008 12:23:41 PM
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backrowbaptist
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I was wondering when this debate would cross the absurdity line and include comparisons between smoking and heroin/cocaine. This would happen once or twice a year when I was teaching high school. Someone would always put a notice in the morning bulletin, usually during 'smoke out' week, saying something to the effect that cigarettes are more adicting than cocaine or heroin. In reading this to my class, I would always stop and ask the students what this means to them. Invariably, they'd answer 'cigarettes are just as bad as cocaine'. I would then tell them that this is the stupidest thing they will ever be told. No one has ever died from their first puff of a cigarette. No one has ever smoked too many cigs, got in a car and plowed into a family of four, killing them. Cigarette smokers in withdrawl don't hold up liquor stores (at least I assume you didn't, Jimbo). I would usually end my tirade by saying something like 'Don't smoke, it's bad for you. But if you MUST have a bad habit, smoke. Don't drink, use cocaine, heroin, chronic, or meth. Those can all kill you TODAY. Cigarettes may take years off you life, but they'll be at the end, not the beginning."
Smoking is un-healthy enough to make a good case for not doing it. Saying it's a sin, I'm not so sure. Are we saying Spurgeon and Lewis were unknowingly sinning? People knew back then smoking wasn't healthy. Do we discount their spiritual insights because they may have been under the control of 'another master', tobacco? Churchill, Roosevelt and Eisenhower smoked heavily, yet who ever did more to save 'Christain civilization" and defeat evil? Are there non-smoking men today that God could use against such domonic forces?
That's why, as a non-smoker, I take the resonable side with the smokers in this debate, versus the unreasonable anti-smoking zealots.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/25/2008 12:24:26 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
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quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
Hey Jimbo
Yep, ya caught me. I've gotta say, your descriptions of your struggles in quitting don't square with your assertions of difficulty. If withdrawl's as tough as you say, or as tough as heroin and crack (don't get me started on that asinine comparison), then you must be the most powerful trekker in the universe. Take down your Will Riker avatar and put in 'Q'.
Not gonna ask them, huh? Better to keep the illusion than get their story.
The "asinine comparison" isn't mine, I cannot take any credit for that one. Professionals came up with it. It's not about the effects of taking the drugs, though the poison nicotine can pack quite a whack to your heart and blood preasure. No, it's about the difficulty of quitting and staying quit. The success rate of quitting for 12 months is only 7.7% for the MOST effective means I've been able to find online.
Did you catch that? 7.7% success rate of 12 months quit!
Someone would have to be pretty immune to facts to assert that quitting is easy...
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/25/2008 12:28:29 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
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quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
....In reading this to my class, I would always stop and ask the students what this means to them.....
Look
it
up.
Nobody, and I mean nobody, with any insight into nicotine addiction or that has done a even a tiny amount of research would minimize the effects or the strength of nicotine addiction like you do.
The more you crow, the more foolish you appear.
No brag, just fact.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/25/2008 12:37:45 PM
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Hayseed
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Do ALL smokers die of smoking-related causes?
Do ALL smokers die early than "their time"?
Are ALL smokers addicted-pack-a-day smokers and will go berserk if they don't have a cigarette?
Do ALL smokers have a hard time quitting?
Can you really answer "yes" to all these questions?
Intellectual Honesty and Critical Thinking 101: Keep your facts and experiences in their place and let them stand on their own. Don't use them outside their measure to make the case a "universal truth."
_____________________________
My entire goal in life is to live exactly like the man who was falsely accused of being a drunkard, heretic and a friend of sinners by the religious people. So, don't be surprised if I'm not too concerned if you think ill of me.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/25/2008 12:58:02 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hayseed
Intellectual Honesty and Critical Thinking 101: Keep your facts and experiences in their place and let them stand on their own. Don't use them outside their measure to make the case a "universal truth."
You can't provide support for the neutrality of nicotine addiction and its effects so you're gonna to continue to hide behind the least likely scenarios.
Hayseed, I honestly don't care if the main Egyptian watercourse is your favorite haunt, it just bothers me that you'd downplay the harmful effects of tobacco in a public forum where it might encourage others to believe the lie that smoking/chewing/dipping is no big deal.
And the big rooster doesn't bother me at all. Someone without experience and too lazy to research the truth wouldn't influence anyone to buy such a line.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/25/2008 12:59:14 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
....Okay, your turn. You give us an authoritative source, something better than your say so that my statement is hogwash and that many if not most people use tobacco in moderation without addiction or problems quitting.
Dare you.
Double-dog dare you.
Still waiting...
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/25/2008 1:01:12 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 387
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Not gonna ask them, huh? Better to keep the illusion than get their story.
It's been discussed, believe me. I have no illusions with regards to my family. Seeing and hearing them is what first put the seeds of doubt in my mind about the difficulty of quitting. I lived with these people, don't forget.
I wouldn't be surprised if addiction, risk of cancer and difficulty in quitting are influenced by genetic propensities. Maybe that's why your family struggled and was affected drastically and mine wasn't. Any research on that?
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/25/2008 1:07:11 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1721
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
If you think that coffee is anywhere near as controlling as nicotine, I suggest you do a little research.
So, if I understand you right, it is a matter of degrees. If something is only as addicting as coffee (or Red Bull, or Mt. Dew, etc.), it's fine. But once one hits the nicotine level, it becomes sinful. Is that a correct assessment of your view?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/25/2008 1:31:00 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 387
Joined: 6/7/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
....In reading this to my class, I would always stop and ask the students what this means to them.....
Look
it
up.
Nobody, and I mean nobody, with any insight into nicotine addiction or that has done a even a tiny amount of research would minimize the effects or the strength of nicotine addiction like you do.
The more you crow, the more foolish you appear.
No brag, just fact.
Nicotine doesn't kill you, it's not a carcinogen. There are lots of ways to ween yourself off of it. It's tough, but do-able. Like I said, you and millions of others have done it (you don't even think about it anymore). Most heroin and cocaine addicts can't and don't do it. What they're addicted to is what kills them. I've worked with teen-agers for 23 years, so I'm NOT ignorant of this. Comparing cigarettes, nicotine if you will, to hard narcotics is irresponsible, at best. It's junk science and is done for political ends, and I'll take any chance I can get to crow about the stupidity of any such hysterical claims.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/25/2008 1:33:31 PM
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Hayseed
Posts: 559
Joined: 4/15/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
You can't provide support for the neutrality of nicotine addiction and its effects so you're gonna to continue to hide behind the least likely scenarios.
I'M NOT! Can you actually read a post for what it says?!
Just turn off that omniscience and clairvoyance for a minute or two and actually read what someone is saying to you and take it at face value.
_____________________________
My entire goal in life is to live exactly like the man who was falsely accused of being a drunkard, heretic and a friend of sinners by the religious people. So, don't be surprised if I'm not too concerned if you think ill of me.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/25/2008 1:36:58 PM
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Hayseed
Posts: 559
Joined: 4/15/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
....Okay, your turn. You give us an authoritative source, something better than your say so that my statement is hogwash and that many if not most people use tobacco in moderation without addiction or problems quitting.
Dare you.
Double-dog dare you.
Still waiting...
What? Still waiting for me to find sources for a point I'm not trying to make in the first place? You're arguing with yourself on that. I pointed out something quite different to you that you can't seem to accept: The world doesn't necessarily universally operate according to "JimboFletch Experience."
_____________________________
My entire goal in life is to live exactly like the man who was falsely accused of being a drunkard, heretic and a friend of sinners by the religious people. So, don't be surprised if I'm not too concerned if you think ill of me.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/25/2008 1:44:55 PM
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MindySue69
Posts: 321
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What I'm seeing happen here is truly giving me a headache.
Some of us are advocating that while smoking is not good for you, and admitting that yes, it is unhealthy - it is not a sin.
Others are saying that since we believe it is not a sin, that Jesus smoked.
Nobody said anything of the sort.
Why do people have to take arguments to ridiculous hyperbolic extremes?
Why do we have to muddy the argument with illegal drug references? Cocaine and heroin has nothing to do with cigarette smoking, any more than kissing your boyfriend goodnight on the doorstep equals becoming a prostitute.
I'm just amazed at the ridiculous extremes this conversation is taking...
And if y ou want to compare drug addictions, nicotine is closer to caffeine than it is to heroin or cocaine. I get pretty nasty when I suffer from caffeine withdrawal.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/25/2008 2:19:56 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MindySue69
Nobody said anything of the sort.
Dearest Mindy, there are more than this thread where the topic has been discussed.
Why do we have to muddy the argument with illegal drug references? Cocaine and heroin has nothing to do with cigarette smoking, any more than kissing your boyfriend goodnight on the doorstep equals becoming a prostitute.
Dearest Mindy, I did not make up the comparison. I even provided a link.
quote:
And if y ou want to compare drug addictions, nicotine is closer to caffeine than it is to heroin or cocaine. I get pretty nasty when I suffer from caffeine withdrawal.
I drank Navy coffee for over 9 years - almost strong enough for a spoon to standup in it. I gave it up for many years afterwards. I had a really nasty headache for a day or so. There was no comparison when I gave up tobacco. WEEKS & MONTHS after I quit I still got craves that made me want to chew steel nails.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/25/2008 2:26:38 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 9932
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Not gonna ask them, huh? Better to keep the illusion than get their story.
It's been discussed, believe me. I have no illusions with regards to my family. Seeing and hearing them is what first put the seeds of doubt in my mind about the difficulty of quitting. I lived with these people, don't forget.
I wouldn't be surprised if addiction, risk of cancer and difficulty in quitting are influenced by genetic propensities. Maybe that's why your family struggled and was affected drastically and mine wasn't. Any research on that?
No, it sounds as made up as your other "facts."
My best guess is that your family is a special class of mutants because I've seen no reliable stats that would show that general population that's immune.
quote:
Nicotine doesn't kill you...
You're precious, you know that. I'm glad that you use "teach" the past tense so teens no longer have your homegrown misinformation.
Did you know (apprently not) that nicotine is used as a poison?
Or that 40–60 mg (0.5-1.0 mg/kg) can be a lethal dosage for adult humans? This designates nicotine as an extremely deadly poison. It is more toxic than many other alkaloids such as cocaine [there's that word again that makes you have hot flashes].
Did you also know [know is word I associate lesss & less with you] that spilling a sufficient concentration of nicotine onto the skin can result in poisoning or even death since Nicotine readily passes into the bloodstream from dermal contact.
I was pretty much understanding your position until this post. It is impossible to get the amount of nicotine needed to do that from cigarettes. Yes it is impossible to OD on nicotine but it would take more than is found in cigarettes. Now go look and see how many cigs you would have to smoke at one time to die from it.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/25/2008 2:29:25 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
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No rational person in the 21st century can honestly support smoking as an okie-dokie pastime that's no worse than coffee or chocolate.
I've yet to see anyone have their lungs or their face eaten off or their carotid artery clogged producing a massive stroke/heart attack as a result of years of drinking coffee. Zero. But I have known plenty of tobacco smokers that have.
And a 3-7% success rate for being clean one year from nicotine is no ringing endorsement for its ease of quitting. In case it's too complicated, that means that 93-97% of the people who try to quit cave within a year.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/25/2008 2:32:06 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
I was pretty much understanding your position until this post. It is impossible to get the amount of nicotine needed to do that from cigarettes. Yes it is impossible to OD on nicotine but it would take more than is found in cigarettes. Now go look and see how many cigs you would have to smoke at one time to die from it.
Sam, BRB said nicotine cannot kill you. Flat out, no qualifications. He was wrong.
Folks, you can have this ridiculous exercise in promoting the benefits of nicotine and smoking. But there aren't any.
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