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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/24/2008 4:07:41 PM
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MindySue69
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
I simply asked that how can one knowingly do something that is harmful to themselves and do it in faith
So a Christian cannot enjoy junk food, or drink sodas?
To some people, no, they can not. Some people feel deeply convicted to eat only organic health food, raw foods, etc... And that's fine with me - I don't have a problem with their conviction at all and fully respect it.
But I do have a problem when they try to take their conviction and make it mine.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/24/2008 4:09:10 PM
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MindySue69
Posts: 321
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Heroin is illegal for one thing.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/24/2008 4:10:04 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1721
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quote:
To some people, no, they can not. Some people feel deeply convicted to eat only organic health food, raw foods, etc... And that's fine with me - I don't have a problem with their conviction at all and fully respect it.
But I do have a problem when they try to take their conviction and make it mine.
I quite agree. I have no problem with people having personal convictions on disputable matters, but as you say, when those individuals try and make personal convictions universal truths, then they're overstepping their bounds.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/24/2008 4:14:08 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MindySue69
Heroin is illegal for one thing.
That's not really the point since the context is regarding what is harmful and the to what degree... And in some countries it's controlled but available...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/24/2008 4:21:13 PM
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MindySue69
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It is the point as far as I'm concerned - you asked why there was a line drawn. That's the line. It's illegal. I don't care if its illegal in the Netherlands, or Timbuktu, it is illegal here. Since we are told to obey the authorities above us, the fact that it's illegal in the US where I live makes it a sin for me to use heroin, marijuana, cocaine, or any other illegal drug, just as it would be a sin for me to drive while under the influence, to have a display of public drunkenness, to smoke where it is not permitted, or to litter.
As to mutilating = is that not addressed in the Old Testament?
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/24/2008 4:25:39 PM
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MindySue69
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Plus I'd like to know how ear piercings fit in with that. Lots and lots and lots of conservative Christian ladies I know who wouldn't be caught dead in "men's clothing" have multiple piercings in their ears....and not a single one has a parapet around their roof...and I doubt that anyone calls in the priest to bless the house after they wash away the mildew that collected on the window sill.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/24/2008 4:35:58 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MindySue69
It is the point as far as I'm concerned - you asked why there was a line drawn. That's the line. It's illegal. I don't care if its illegal in the Netherlands, or Timbuktu, it is illegal here. Since we are told to obey the authorities above us, the fact that it's illegal in the US where I live makes it a sin for me to use heroin, marijuana, cocaine, or any other illegal drug, just as it would be a sin for me to drive while under the influence, to have a display of public drunkenness, to smoke where it is not permitted, or to litter.
So heroin use wouldn't be sin where it's permitted by the authorities in your view
And, is the fact that is harmful another valid reason not to use it, or does that not matter? I would have to believe you will say no since you seem to avoid that fact at all costs...
For the record drunkenness is sin anywhere...
quote:
As to mutilating = is that not addressed in the Old Testament?
I believe so... And isn't mutilating purposely harming oneself? And even if one does so for pleasure isn't that still wrong?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/24/2008 4:52:40 PM
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MindySue69
Posts: 321
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High fructose corn syrup is harmful too.
MSG is harmful. Cholesterol is harmful. Being obese is harmful. Trans fats are harmful. Eating undercooked meat can be harmful.
Being harmful doesn't make it a sin.
And I do believe the self mutilation issue brought up in the OT was not a sin because it was "harmful to your body" but because it was directly tied into the ritualistic practices of the pagans - they would mutilate themselves to show their "gods" how serious they are in their pleas for mercy, favor, etc...the motive behind the self mutilation was to get the attention of their gods.
I'm wondering if man-made sins imposed on ourselves is a form of that "self mutilation." ;)
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/24/2008 5:18:43 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MindySue69
High fructose corn syrup is harmful too.
MSG is harmful. Cholesterol is harmful. Being obese is harmful. Trans fats are harmful. Eating undercooked meat can be harmful.
Being harmful doesn't make it a sin.
Are you of the believe anything that is legal is not sinful?
quote:
And I do believe the self mutilation issue brought up in the OT was not a sin because it was "harmful to your body" but because it was directly tied into the ritualistic practices of the pagans - they would mutilate themselves to show their "gods" how serious they are in their pleas for mercy, favor, etc...the motive behind the self mutilation was to get the attention of their gods.
So self mutilation is ok if not done so in a ritualistic practice? Would that include harming oneself up to taking your own life?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/24/2008 5:30:15 PM
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Hayseed
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Do all smokers die from smoking? No! Unfortunately, they've made alot of nice propaganda over the years that make people think they do. Am I minimizing it? No. But it has been blown out of proportion.
I'm not advocating anything. I'm trying to point out that there is some critical thinking involved here.
I'm sure everybody is "killing themselves" with something or another.
People die. They usually die of something.
_____________________________
My entire goal in life is to live exactly like the man who was falsely accused of being a drunkard, heretic and a friend of sinners by the religious people. So, don't be surprised if I'm not too concerned if you think ill of me.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/24/2008 5:59:32 PM
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Hayseed
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Sorry, Sovereign... we've gone way beyond what the original post was that I was answering and I've said what I wanted.
To you smoking is a sin. To me it's not.
We can twist it anyway we want to and it ain't gonna change a thing.
Like I said, when God convicts me about it I'll deal with it.
_____________________________
My entire goal in life is to live exactly like the man who was falsely accused of being a drunkard, heretic and a friend of sinners by the religious people. So, don't be surprised if I'm not too concerned if you think ill of me.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/24/2008 6:29:35 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hayseed
Sorry, Sovereign... we've gone way beyond what the original post was that I was answering and I've said what I wanted.
Whatever all that means... I guess the game is over?
quote:
To you smoking is a sin. To me it's not.
Actually I am asking the question...
quote:
We can twist it anyway we want to and it ain't gonna change a thing.
I don't post here to change minds...
quote:
Like I said, when God convicts me about it I'll deal with it.
Interesting comment...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/24/2008 7:03:18 PM
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MindySue69
Posts: 321
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quote:
Are you of the believe anything that is legal is not sinful?
Nope. I am of the belief that anything forbidden in the bible is sinful, and anything not forbidden in the bible is not sinful unless it is illegal.
Extramarital sex is sinful, but it is not illegal.
Theft is both sinful and illegal.
Lying is sinful, but it is not always illegal.
Smoking is sinful if you are under age, and it's sinful if you try to do it where it is not allowed. The bible doesn't say anything really about cigarettes, pipes, or cigars though.
Self mutilation - define it. Some people see piercings and tattoes as sinful. Killing oneself is sinful becuase the Bible says "do not kill." Someone who is cutting themselves up has more to worry about than the actual act, there is something wrong with them inside and they need professional help to cure the problem, not simply label the symptom (the cutting) as sin.
Is this really that difficult? Can you not grasp where I'm going with this?
SOMETHING SPECIFICALLY FORBIDDEN IN THE BIBLE IS SINFUL. SOMETHING THAT IS NOT, IS NOT. How much more clear can it be? God gave us a set of instructions and I assume that it is complete enough for Him. He doesn't need you or me or anyone else to add to it.
In fact, doing THAT is a sin (I believe it's in Revelation)
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/24/2008 8:57:42 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MindySue69
Nope. I am of the belief that anything forbidden in the bible is sinful, and anything not forbidden in the bible is not sinful unless it is illegal.
Extramarital sex is sinful, but it is not illegal.
Theft is both sinful and illegal.
Lying is sinful, but it is not always illegal.
Smoking is sinful if you are under age, and it's sinful if you try to do it where it is not allowed. The bible doesn't say anything really about cigarettes, pipes, or cigars though.
Self mutilation - define it. Some people see piercings and tattoes as sinful. Killing oneself is sinful becuase the Bible says "do not kill." Someone who is cutting themselves up has more to worry about than the actual act, there is something wrong with them inside and they need professional help to cure the problem, not simply label the symptom (the cutting) as sin.
Is this really that difficult? Can you not grasp where I'm going with this?
Yes, rationalization... Given the amount of death linked to smoking I don't see how the 5th Commandment doesn't come in to play. Not to mention the fact it's addicting therefore something other than the Spirit that has control over a person...
1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
How does being addicting to smoking not place one under the power of it?
quote:
SOMETHING SPECIFICALLY FORBIDDEN IN THE BIBLE IS SINFUL. SOMETHING THAT IS NOT, IS NOT. How much more clear can it be? God gave us a set of instructions and I assume that it is complete enough for Him. He doesn't need you or me or anyone else to add to it.
In fact, doing THAT is a sin (I believe it's in Revelation)
I guess we'd have to figure out if discerning something is in fact adding... Since things like the Rapture, Trinity and other things are not SPECIFICALLY mentioned but are said to exist have they been added? Many folks in the Current Event defend abortion by saying it's not specifically forbidden in the bible, yet a case can be made that it's murder even those the method itself isn't SPECIFICALLY mentioned.
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/24/2008 9:07:01 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1721
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: online
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quote:
Not to mention the fact it's addicting therefore something other than the Spirit that has control over a person...
1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
How does being addicting to smoking not place one under the power of it?
Do you believe Christians cannot drink coffee without sinning?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/25/2008 12:54:00 AM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6980
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
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No doubt that smoking is bad for you. However, a sin?
I think too many Christians like to call something a sin just because they don't like it.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/25/2008 1:43:21 AM
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tallandtired
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 Smoking has always been frowned upon by most Christians, however I believe that from a persons heart flows the destructive issues of life. Mos people equate smoking and drinking together, but if a person is drunk he or she has lost their sense of reason; while whether they smoke does not. When we talk to others about what is in the Bible we must tell it as it is, neither adding nor taking away. Smoking may prove to be harmful to some yet not to all. While it may not be healthy neither is obesity and many people are in this category. I am reminded of Jesus talking to the religious leaders telling them they are so concerned about the outside of the cup yet are not as near concerned about the inside. Most of the ills of society come from what is in the heart of man rather than something such as smoking. A lot of the people who talk the most about smoking are those who stopped because some church frowned upon it. I wonder if it is okay to stop because of man rather than a conviction from the Holy Spirit.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/25/2008 2:03:45 AM
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PaleHawkWoman
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Among Native Americans tobacco is considered a sacrament, an offering to the Creator. Keep in mind that when we use the pipe, we DO NOT inhale the smoke- we draw it in our mouth, think of our prayers, and then blow the smoke out so that our prayers rise with it as an offering.
A pinch of tobacco, along with sage and cedar, is used in the smudge. The smoke is wafted over and around those present as well as over and around any items to be used in ceremony as a cleansing agent.
Tobacco ties are made as a person prays, then hung in a house, at a sacred site, or outside in a place of prayer as an offering and a reminder of the Sacred.
That being said... smoking as most folks define it IS sinful. Nicotine is the most addictive substance on the planet and the processing that tobacco is put thru for cigarette production introduces numerous other chemicals known to cause cancers and other health issues. The average smoker smokes 1-2 packs a day at a cost of $4/pack = $4-$8/day, $28-$56/wk, $120-$240/month, $1440-$2880/yr. Where might the Lord make use of that resource?
To me, as a Native American, it is also a misuse of a sacred plant as I am fairly certain God did not mean it to be used as it is being used.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/25/2008 8:33:49 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 4106
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
No doubt that smoking is bad for you. However, a sin?
I think too many Christians like to call something a sin just because they don't like it. A sin is anything that falls short of God's glory (Rom 3) or is not done in faith (Rom 14).
If you have faith to smoke and believe it somehow brings glory to God, then go ahead. For the rest of us.....
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/25/2008 9:38:21 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
No doubt that smoking is bad for you. However, a sin?
I think too many Christians like to call something a sin just because they don't like it. A sin is anything that falls short of God's glory (Rom 3) or is not done in faith (Rom 14).
If you have faith to smoke and believe it somehow brings glory to God, then go ahead. For the rest of us.....
We've already been told by one proponent of cigarettes that sucking on a burning, toxic weed is just a ministry tool to the lost and chided others that we shouldn't be so freaked out imagining the Savior lunging one while inviting the unredeemed to enter the strait gate and walk the narrow path.
My imagination just isn't elastic enough to do that, so it just must be that I'm too churchy to be able to effectively minister...
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/25/2008 10:36:59 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1721
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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Since my question remains unanswered... Jimbo, if I may -
quote:
We've already been told by one proponent of cigarettes that sucking on a burning, toxic weed is just a ministry tool to the lost and chided others that we shouldn't be so freaked out imagining the Savior lunging one while inviting the unredeemed to enter the strait gate and walk the narrow path.
And now, with a few changes,
quote:
We've already been told by one proponent of coffee that drinking an addicting, stimulant bean is just a ministry tool to the lost and chided others that we shouldn't be so freaked out imagining the Savior chugging one while inviting the unredeemed to enter the strait gate and walk the narrow path.
Does that seem fair? If not, why?
*edited for formatting issues*
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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