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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/9/2008 1:39:30 AM
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Hayseed
Posts: 559
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I didn't "justify" anything. Just pointed out the hypocrisy.
When I'm talking obesity here, I ain't talkin' about a mere 75 lbs... I'm talking women and men having to wear sweatpants to church gatherings and looking like disgusting slobs. Along with their obese children.
I smoke maybe a pack a week. Typically, if I don't have them I don't Jones for them. Of course, there are those stressful moments when I'd like a smoke to take off the edge when I'm ready to throttle somebody.
But, like I said, I ain't justifying it. I'm just tired of the hypocrites that try to convict others of things while overlooking their own stuff.
_____________________________
My entire goal in life is to live exactly like the man who was falsely accused of being a drunkard, heretic and a friend of sinners by the religious people. So, don't be surprised if I'm not too concerned if you think ill of me.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/11/2008 8:15:06 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
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Hayseed, I thought you'd get a real kick out of this: Early Sunday morning, my 54 year-old BIL was medevac'ed to a hospital with better cardiac care than the smaller hospital near his home. He came very, very close to dying - a major blood vessel was 100% blocked, along with some comparatively less clogging in other vessels. After a couple of emergency stints were inserted, he spent the rest of the day - and is still- in the Cardiac ICU.
He's a smoker. Not a heavy smoke, he's tried to hide it from most people - including family. Of course, over the years the news slowly leaked out so most of us know he smokes. But he says he doesn't Jones for them, just smokes to take the edge off. (Sounds a bit like an echo in here...)
Oh, and he's a preacher and has been a pastor since the early 70s.
He'll probably skip the cigs the rest of this week since other things are occupying his attention (and his wife & 3 daughter's minds as well).
quote:
I didn't "justify" anything.
Maybe I missed it, but I couldn't find where anybody accused you or anyone else of justifying the influence being exerted on others through smoking. What I did say was, "You cannot pretty-up smoking. You can try to divert attention from it. But there's no way to make it attractive."
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/11/2008 10:01:19 AM
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Hayseed
Posts: 559
Joined: 4/15/2006
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Granted... it's a ****shoot.
My dad never drank or smoked in his life. Got dizzy one day at work (outdoors as a forest ranger so he got exercise all the time)... next day triple bypass surgery. Ended up dying of a heart attack at 59 several years later.
Wasn't it Jim Fix the famous jogging guru that plopped over on a run?
I'm not saying smoking is good, but I am saying that people get stuff and die from stuff all the time, who have never smoked.
I enjoy my cigars and a cigarette every now and then. When and if God convicts me about it, I'll deal with it.
I'm tired of all the man-made conviction about it. I'm tired of the churches with the morbidly obese people preaching about the "body is the temple" to others without even a second thought. I want them to take the log out of their eyes before opening their mouths about others.
_____________________________
My entire goal in life is to live exactly like the man who was falsely accused of being a drunkard, heretic and a friend of sinners by the religious people. So, don't be surprised if I'm not too concerned if you think ill of me.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/11/2008 10:11:31 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2913
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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Yo' hayseed.
Haven't seen you here in a while. Greetings!
For the record, I'll admit to an annual cigar, however I'll also tell you that tobacco decimated my dad's family. 10 kids and 9 of them passed away young due to tobacco related illnesses.
I don't get too bent out of shape over the occasional cigar, but I do think we have responsibilities to our families to hang around for a while and to not cut life artificially short by doing things that aren't smart. The annual cigar is unlikely to kill me. Neither will the annual Big Mac. Doing either, however, regularly without exercise and other health care is the slow version of suicide.
I generally think it's good to take issues like this in context - in other words, if I avoid tobacco but drink like a fish or let my weight balloon to 300 pounds, then I've not accomplished anything and the mere avoidance of tobacco is no virtue.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/11/2008 10:21:15 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hayseed
....I'm tired of all the man-made conviction about it...
Let me put it like this: You may or may not get killed by a train, but if you sleep on the track, you increase your odds significantly.
And if you're happy with that, who's business is it, right? But, then, there's always the young person or two that sees you smoking without any obvious health effects that isn't blessed with your immunity to the toxins in cigarettes...
quote:
I'm tired of the churches with the morbidly obese people preaching about the "body is the temple" to others without even a second thought.
I can count on one hand the number of morbidly obese preachers I've met in my lifetime. In any case, are you suggesting that preachers quit talking about self-destructive behavior and sin altogether, just spout Osteen-ese that let's you stay unchallenged and unchanged unless they are sinless and have the body of an athlete?
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/11/2008 11:23:13 AM
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faroukfarouk
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It's bad to be addicted, yes, But some ppl smoke in moderation, and preachers like Spurgeon smoked (not an argument one way or the other, I know).
I don't smoke any more, by the way, but would hesitate to say that in moderation it's 'wrong' in all circumstances.
Take care.
quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
quote:
The bottom line is that anything that controls me, outside of Christ, is a problem.
Amen.
_____________________________
Trust the Bible.
Trust the Lord.
Don't trust the appearance of things.
(I'm a guy. Some tattoo designs look nice, though...but I haven't worn my earrings lately. So, think the lady in the avatar is my sister?)
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/12/2008 8:02:37 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hayseed
Preach what the scripture says and means then leave it alone.
Just for clarification:
Is that a call to either produce a scripture that specifically condemns smoking cigarettes or to shut up?
Scripture tells us to avoid causing young believers to stumble, that our body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit, that we should do everything to the glory of Christ. These are principles to help us determine in we are in the will and spirit of Christ or not. If one is a post-modern legalist, they would brush these principles aside and demand a precise denouncement of smoking.
If smoking is a neutral activity, I challenge you to bring a message, lead a prayer, or simply make an announcement from the pulpit at church on Sunday morning. If it doesn't bother you, doesn't offend the majority of those present, and doesn't cause a few high schoolers to think it's a stamp of approval on smoking, then I'll accept that it's something that's okay for some to do, a matter of personal conviction.
Something else to consider:
Perhaps smoking is the LOG and not a SPECK in someone's eye. The effects of a morbidly obese preacher is readily apparent but the result of smoking might not manifest itself for 30 years. Meanwhile, the smoker influences impressionable younger people to join in the coolness of smoking.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/12/2008 10:59:01 AM
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GroupW
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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Wondering if I can synthesize Hayseed's argument and Jimbo's into one statement you both could agree with.
I think Hayseed is correct when he says that many churches pick and choose which sins are worth having a fuss over and which we pretend to ignore. Obesity is rampant in America and in our churches, but we generally don't talk about it. We have our favorite sins which we commit (overeating, lack of exercise, intellectual laziness, not staying informed on what's happening in the world, not educating ourselves....), and then we have the sins we allow our pastors to preach about (homosexuality, etc.)
The sins we allow folks to preach about tend not to be the sins we are most at risk of committing. We like to focus on people that are different than us so we don't have to focus on the things we ourselves need to change. That said, Jimbo is also correct in saying we can't push that too far such that we don't talk about ANY sins and try to justify something based on the argument that in doing so the church is just picking on people that are different. Yes, the church picks on people that are different and likes to preach about the sins we are LEAST likely to commit. But yes, even so some of those things are still sins.
BT
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/12/2008 1:29:43 PM
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Hayseed
Posts: 559
Joined: 4/15/2006
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For me, and I'm speaking for me, not making it a truth for others: I have a clean conscience about tobacco. I've talked to God about it many times.
Would I advise or preach for someone to start smoking? HECK NO!
Many of you won't understand this, but many times it has actually helped me to be in a situation where I can talk to someone who needs the Lord that I probably wouldn't have noticed otherwise. It has also helped people be more comfortable and receptive around me.
I really don't expect many to understand that, unless you're involved in daily ministry to the "rough crowd" out there.
Can I truly "smoke them to the glory of God"? You bet!
But, like I said, that's my experience for myself and how God has made and uses me.
_____________________________
My entire goal in life is to live exactly like the man who was falsely accused of being a drunkard, heretic and a friend of sinners by the religious people. So, don't be surprised if I'm not too concerned if you think ill of me.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/12/2008 1:35:56 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2913
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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I'd probably take the opposite position there, but wouldn't argue the point. Particularly since my annual cigar would make arguing somewhat hypocritical. 
Speaking of which, I think it's about that time of year....
The bad thing is that I've got my son so convinced of the health impacts of smoking that he thinks if you take one drag you have about 3 hours to live. If he saw me enjoying my annual cigar, he'd start planning my funeral.
BT
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/12/2008 3:34:31 PM
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bluestone
Posts: 2934
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From: United States of America
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Why don't more people smoke pipes?
are they more expensive?
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/12/2008 3:44:07 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4274
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From: The higher lowcountry
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
Why don't more people smoke pipes?
are they more expensive?
I think it ends up about the same. Course, that depends on how much you smoke.
My gr-granny smoked a pipe, just a little wooden one, but she only used maple smelling tobacco.
_____________________________
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/12/2008 3:44:36 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
Why don't more people smoke pipes?
are they more expensive?
I smoked a pipe when I was a young man. What I found was that the better the tobacco smelled, the worse it tasted. It was also extremely harsh on my tongue - regardless of the type pipe I used - and I had several.
I think I also mentioned a great-uncle that died from oral cancer from smoking a pipe - it started on his lip where he normally held the pipe in his mouth.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/13/2008 8:19:26 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
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quote:
ORIGINAL: faroukfarouk
doinkdom:
Lots of older ladies smoked.
And dipped snuff. Both my grandmothers dipped. One grandmother quit in her 40s and later told me how hard it had been. I was too stupid to think that I could get hooked.
faroukfarouk, you seem to have made it a mission to minimize quitting and point out that others were addicts in the past when the dangers of tobacco use and it's addictive powers were unknown, as if that makes it okay to have two masters. How long did you smoke, how much were you smoking when you quit, and how long ago was it?
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/13/2008 10:44:53 AM
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JamesL5
Posts: 97
Joined: 8/26/2007
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quote:
original: DaveW
Sin is whatever falls short or misses the mark of God's glory. "For all have sinned and fall short..."
I would take smoking as sinful.
I would agree with this statement. I think sin is any type of action that does not please or glorify God. I used to smoke but it was hindering my wife and kids, so I decided to quit. I think smoking is a sin because it does not glorify God and it is a hinderance to other people.
< Message edited by JamesL5 -- 8/13/2008 10:55:02 AM >
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/13/2008 1:00:20 PM
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Hayseed
Posts: 559
Joined: 4/15/2006
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There are a lot of opinions that vary on what does and doesn't "glorify God." One person may be used of God in a way that others don't understand. What "glorifies God" is subject to God and how He has made and uses another person. I see a lot of people doing things that I think doesn't glorify God, but I have to keep in mind that they're not me and God is using them differently.
I've already stated how God has and does use me to get the gospel to people that most church-people wouldn't be able to reach or even care to reach in many cases.
I listen to God and when He says something is wrong or it's time to give something up, I'll do it.
_____________________________
My entire goal in life is to live exactly like the man who was falsely accused of being a drunkard, heretic and a friend of sinners by the religious people. So, don't be surprised if I'm not too concerned if you think ill of me.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/13/2008 2:10:07 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
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As I said earlier, if smoking is a neutral activity then it should be acceptable to do while teaching or participating in Bible study during Sunday School or while bringing a message, leading a prayer, or simply making an announcement from the pulpit at any church on any given Sunday morning.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/13/2008 2:13:21 PM
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Hayseed
Posts: 559
Joined: 4/15/2006
Status: online
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I hold Bible studies with guys and we light up a smoke if we want.
In the church building I don't because then I'd be stumbling others with my freedom. Plus, I'd be breaking the law.
_____________________________
My entire goal in life is to live exactly like the man who was falsely accused of being a drunkard, heretic and a friend of sinners by the religious people. So, don't be surprised if I'm not too concerned if you think ill of me.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/13/2008 2:20:43 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
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I have a pretty vivid imagination but, I'm sorry, I just can't picture Jesus sucking on a lit cigarette and breathing deeply... or going through nicotine withdrawal while also enduring His trial and crucifixion.
Am I alone on that?
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