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Carico -> Genesis (8/6/2008 5:07:51 PM)

I realize that it probably won't do much good to demonstrate how true Genesis is because those who don't believe it now won't believe it no matter how much we show them its truth. That's because as 2 Corinthians 4:4 explains, "For the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the glory of the gospel of Christ. "And unbelievers take the form of; pagans, atheists, people who deny that Jesus is the only way to God, and wolves in sheep's clothing.

So the battle here is: who is smarter? Man or God? Most people here say man is, although many claim to worship God since they probably grew up in a church. But they spend most of heir time trying to refute Genesis as written and replace it with the words of scientists which is whom they really worship. [8|]


Nevertheless, I'm called to tell the truth and can do no less because of what Christ did for me. The bible is the literal word of God, not just a fairy tale or poem as I'll demonstrate. If people want to argue with God's word, it's their souls that are at stake, not mine. So here goes.

The 6 day creation established:

1) the length of day and night by the size of the earth and how long it takes for the earth to rotate around the sun.

2) the 7 day week because the 7 day week is determined by the length of each day and each night. That in turn established the 12 month year.

3) When morning comes and when night comes

4) The earth was created out of water. Most living things gestate in water, the earth's surface is composed on over 70% water and the humans being is composed of over 80% water. But the truth of the bible is confirmed by what Peter says in 2 Peter 3:5-6, "But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's Word (the bible does say that scripture is God's Word, Glaudys) the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water." Indeed, people deliberately forget that so as to worship fallible scientists because they can see them.

5) When man dies his flesh and bones decay back into dust, proving that he was made up of dust. But one poster here, in trying to claim that Genesis isn't the truth but instead poetic literature, claimed that the dust in the graves of men is a metaphor. [sm=eek.gif] To what, of course, he didn't say.

6) Each animal reproduces itself which is how the world works.

7) Man rules over the animals which is how the world works

8) Adam has one less rib than Eve.

9) Adam wasn't millions of years old at the time of original sin which contradicts the old earth theory. But I'm sure it wouldn't take much for many of you to make up a million year old man, name him Adam and claim that he was the first man. After all, the imagination is considered evidence in the secular world. [;)]

So reality confirms Genesis all the way around. Reality on the other hand, does not confirm that apes can breed human descendants or turn into humans or that animals and humans can interbreed and breed descendants together. Nor does it confirm that humans turn back into apes when we die, nor does any reality confirm the survival of the fittest. The fit and the unfit have always co-existed and will always co-exist in every species.

So nothing in reality supports evolution except the human imagination. So why do people believe in it? Because they worship scientists as gods and try every which way to change the bible and replace it with the words of scientists. But that always causes more contradictions because once you deny the truth of Genesis, you have to change the whole bible since Genesis lays the foundation for the rest of the bible. And here's how changing Genesis changes the whole bible:

1) An old earth means that Adam would have been millions of years old by the time of the fall.
2) Since that's impossible and hasn't been demonstrated in reality that man can live that long, then one has to abandon belief in Adam and Eve.
3) that means he has to change the descendants of the Jews, where they lived and what they did.
4) That means they have to deny original sin or make up a new story of how sin entered the word. But since these people are in the business of changing the bible, which is playing God themselves then they can simply deny that sin exists which would eliminate the need for a savior and they can throw out the life of Jesus as well, since they don't believe that he is the Word anyway.
5) And finally, this all leads to claiming that scripture is not the Word of God, but instead, it's scientists who have the infallible truth. So claiming that Genesis is nothing more than poetic literature leads to not knowing where to find God's word which means one can never know who God is.

But those who've been born again know who God is because the bible confirms reality. So we know who to turn to forever because we know where God's Word can be found. [;)] Unfortunately, those of you who don't know where to find God's word are up a creek without a paddle when you die because again, you'll have nowhere to turn since the earthly men you worship are as mortal as you are. Sorry.



essentialsaltes -> RE: Genesis (8/6/2008 5:49:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico

The bible is the literal word of God, not just a fairy tale or poem as I'll demonstrate.

The 6 day creation established:
...
8) Adam has one less rib than Eve.
...
So reality confirms Genesis all the way around.


I'm having a little difficulty understanding what you're getting at. Can you elaborate on point 8? In what way does reality confirm point 8? I don't believe we have Adam's skeleton, so how could this be confirmed?



Carico -> RE: Genesis (8/6/2008 5:54:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico

The bible is the literal word of God, not just a fairy tale or poem as I'll demonstrate.

The 6 day creation established:
...
8) Adam has one less rib than Eve.
...
So reality confirms Genesis all the way around.


I'm having a little difficulty understanding what you're getting at. Can you elaborate on point 8? In what way does reality confirm point 8? I don't believe we have Adam's skeleton, so how could this be confirmed?


Men have one less rib than women. That's a well known fact. [sm=icon_smile.gif]



drj11 -> RE: Genesis (8/6/2008 6:09:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico

quote:

ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico

The bible is the literal word of God, not just a fairy tale or poem as I'll demonstrate.

The 6 day creation established:
...
8) Adam has one less rib than Eve.
...
So reality confirms Genesis all the way around.


I'm having a little difficulty understanding what you're getting at. Can you elaborate on point 8? In what way does reality confirm point 8? I don't believe we have Adam's skeleton, so how could this be confirmed?


Men have one less rib than women. That's a well known fact. [sm=icon_smile.gif]


False. Its an incorrect wives tale. Look it up.



essentialsaltes -> RE: Genesis (8/6/2008 6:33:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico

quote:

ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico

The bible is the literal word of God, not just a fairy tale or poem as I'll demonstrate.

The 6 day creation established:
...
8) Adam has one less rib than Eve.
...
So reality confirms Genesis all the way around.


I'm having a little difficulty understanding what you're getting at. Can you elaborate on point 8? In what way does reality confirm point 8? I don't believe we have Adam's skeleton, so how could this be confirmed?


Men have one less rib than women. That's a well known fact. [sm=icon_smile.gif]


I was afraid you were going to say that; however, it opens a wonderful opportunity for you to grow and learn.

Men and women have the same number of ribs.
Therefore, your reading of Genesis was wrong on this point.
And you didn't even know it.

But, by referring to the facts of the external world, you can correct your interpretation of the Bible.

Yay, science!



jeafl -> RE: Genesis (8/6/2008 7:33:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico
1) the length of day and night by the size of the earth and how long it takes for the earth to rotate around the sun.


The time the earth needs to rotate around its axis and thereby complete an orbit around the sun depends on the earth’s rotational speed and its distance from the sun. The earth’s size has nothing to do with it.

In fact there is a fair amount of documentary and archaeological evidence to indicate that the earth has not always had 24 hour solar days or even 365.25 solar day years (see Immanuel Velikovsky, Worlds in Collision). And the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake vibrated the entire earth to the point that the earth was moved out of its normal orbit that produces our current 24 hour days. The amount of change is not enough to be noticed without sophisticated scientific instruments, but the quake did show that 24 hour days are not something that we should turn into doctrine.

quote:

2) the 7 day week because the 7 day week is determined by the length of each day and each night. That in turn established the 12 month year.


Most ancient societies, including the Jews, used a lunar month. The solar year doesn’t have the same number of lunar months from one solar year to the next so extra months have to be added every so often to keep the seasons on the calendar in sync with the solar year- the first day of Passover always has to be the 14th day of the lunar month of Nissan and this always has to come with the first full moon after the first day of spring according to the solar calendar.

quote:

3) When morning comes and when night comes


This proves what?

quote:

5) When man dies his flesh and bones decay back into dust, proving that he was made up of dust. But one poster here, in trying to claim that Genesis isn't the truth but instead poetic literature, claimed that the dust in the graves of men is a metaphor. [sm=eek.gif] To what, of course, he didn't say.


Some Darwinists have suggested that when layers of clay are deposited in succession the arrangement of the molecules in one layer controls the arrangement of the molecules in the next layer due to the way atoms and molecules interact with each other (based on their electrical properties). These Darwinists suggest that this replication in clay somehow was a precursor to living things that are dependent on the replication of DNA and RNA that likewise arrange themselves in set patterns because of the way atoms and molecules interact.

quote:

7) Man rules over the animals which is how the world works


You haven’t met my cat, have you?

quote:

8) Adam has one less rib than Eve.


Where in the Bible does it say that Eve was made from Adam’s rib? My Bible simply says she was made from Adam’s side. And unless you can produce Adam’s fossilized skeleton, you cannot prove how many ribs he had.

9) Adam wasn't millions of years old at the time of original sin which contradicts the old earth theory.

Not necessarily. The animals that Adam named could very well have been living for thousands, millions or billions of years before Adam was created. The Bible does not expressly tell us how old the earth is or in what year God created anything and science cannot tell us since no one was around to witness the events so no controlled experiment can be devised to test any hypothesis that tries to explain anything about the origins of the universe, the earth or living things.



triode -> RE: Genesis (8/6/2008 8:06:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico

quote:

ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico

The bible is the literal word of God, not just a fairy tale or poem as I'll demonstrate.

The 6 day creation established:
...
8) Adam has one less rib than Eve.
...
So reality confirms Genesis all the way around.


I'm having a little difficulty understanding what you're getting at. Can you elaborate on point 8? In what way does reality confirm point 8? I don't believe we have Adam's skeleton, so how could this be confirmed?


Men have one less rib than women. That's a well known fact. [sm=icon_smile.gif]


May I suggest Gray's Anatomy? The book, not the TV show.



Carico -> RE: Genesis (8/6/2008 9:17:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jeafl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico
1) the length of day and night by the size of the earth and how long it takes for the earth to rotate around the sun.


The time the earth needs to rotate around its axis and thereby complete an orbit around the sun depends on the earth’s rotational speed and its distance from the sun. The earth’s size has nothing to do with it.

In fact there is a fair amount of documentary and archaeological evidence to indicate that the earth has not always had 24 hour solar days or even 365.25 solar day years (see Immanuel Velikovsky, Worlds in Collision). And the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake vibrated the entire earth to the point that the earth was moved out of its normal orbit that produces our current 24 hour days. The amount of change is not enough to be noticed without sophisticated scientific instruments, but the quake did show that 24 hour days are not something that we should turn into doctrine.

quote:

2) the 7 day week because the 7 day week is determined by the length of each day and each night. That in turn established the 12 month year.


Most ancient societies, including the Jews, used a lunar month. The solar year doesn’t have the same number of lunar months from one solar year to the next so extra months have to be added every so often to keep the seasons on the calendar in sync with the solar year- the first day of Passover always has to be the 14th day of the lunar month of Nissan and this always has to come with the first full moon after the first day of spring according to the solar calendar.

quote:

3) When morning comes and when night comes


This proves what?

quote:

5) When man dies his flesh and bones decay back into dust, proving that he was made up of dust. But one poster here, in trying to claim that Genesis isn't the truth but instead poetic literature, claimed that the dust in the graves of men is a metaphor. [sm=eek.gif] To what, of course, he didn't say.


Some Darwinists have suggested that when layers of clay are deposited in succession the arrangement of the molecules in one layer controls the arrangement of the molecules in the next layer due to the way atoms and molecules interact with each other (based on their electrical properties). These Darwinists suggest that this replication in clay somehow was a precursor to living things that are dependent on the replication of DNA and RNA that likewise arrange themselves in set patterns because of the way atoms and molecules interact.

quote:

7) Man rules over the animals which is how the world works


You haven’t met my cat, have you?

quote:

8) Adam has one less rib than Eve.


Where in the Bible does it say that Eve was made from Adam’s rib? My Bible simply says she was made from Adam’s side. And unless you can produce Adam’s fossilized skeleton, you cannot prove how many ribs he had.

9) Adam wasn't millions of years old at the time of original sin which contradicts the old earth theory.

Not necessarily. The animals that Adam named could very well have been living for thousands, millions or billions of years before Adam was created. The Bible does not expressly tell us how old the earth is or in what year God created anything and science cannot tell us since no one was around to witness the events so no controlled experiment can be devised to test any hypothesis that tries to explain anything about the origins of the universe, the earth or living things.


NIV Genesis 2:22, "Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man."

Boy, I get so sick of it when people feel glib enough to try to tear apart the bible as much as they can. Man thinks he's so smart and one day he'll find out that he's nothing more than dust and his life was nothing more than a chasing after the wind. But until then, he'll try to play God and look foolish in the process. Our only hope is God's wisdom and strength. Without God, we humans are deceived by Satan into believing that we're smarter than God. Unbelievable. [8|]



Method -> RE: Genesis (8/6/2008 9:26:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico
The 6 day creation established:

1) the length of day and night by the size of the earth and how long it takes for the earth to rotate around the sun.


That is established by the rotation of the Earth, not Genesis. Also, a single day on the Moon lasts just under a month. So much for the establishment of the day.

quote:

2) the 7 day week because the 7 day week is determined by the length of each day and each night. That in turn established the 12 month year.


Then why did the Aztecs have a 10 day week?

The seven day week and the twelve month year are human contrivances and based on tradition.

quote:

4) The earth was created out of water.


No, the Earth was created out of rock and it is still mostly rock. There may be a covering of water on the surface, but water does not turn into rock and the majority of Earth's mass is rock, not water.

quote:

Most living things gestate in water,


The majority of life is single celled and does not gestate.

quote:

5) When man dies his flesh and bones decay back into dust, proving that he was made up of dust.


Man is not made up of silica while the major component of dust is silica. So much for that idea.

quote:

6) Each animal reproduces itself which is how the world works.


That is how evolution works.

quote:

7) Man rules over the animals which is how the world works


So why are so many people dying of malaria and other infectious diseases?

quote:

8) Adam has one less rib than Eve.


hehehe, that one made me laugh.

While we are at it, did Adam have a bellybutton?

quote:

9) Adam wasn't millions of years old at the time of original sin which contradicts the old earth theory.


I thought we were going to talk about evidence, not myths.

quote:

So reality confirms Genesis all the way around.


Then why can we see galaxies that are billions of light years away?



Carico -> RE: Genesis (8/6/2008 9:32:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Method

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico
The 6 day creation established:

1) the length of day and night by the size of the earth and how long it takes for the earth to rotate around the sun.


That is established by the rotation of the Earth, not Genesis. Also, a single day on the Moon lasts just under a month. So much for the establishment of the day.

quote:

2) the 7 day week because the 7 day week is determined by the length of each day and each night. That in turn established the 12 month year.


Then why did the Aztecs have a 10 day week?

The seven day week and the twelve month year are human contrivances and based on tradition.

quote:

4) The earth was created out of water.


No, the Earth was created out of rock and it is still mostly rock. There may be a covering of water on the surface, but water does not turn into rock and the majority of Earth's mass is rock, not water.

quote:

Most living things gestate in water,


The majority of life is single celled and does not gestate.

quote:

5) When man dies his flesh and bones decay back into dust, proving that he was made up of dust.


Man is not made up of silica while the major component of dust is silica. So much for that idea.

quote:

6) Each animal reproduces itself which is how the world works.


That is how evolution works.

quote:

7) Man rules over the animals which is how the world works


So why are so many people dying of malaria and other infectious diseases?

quote:

8) Adam has one less rib than Eve.


hehehe, that one made me laugh.

While we are at it, did Adam have a bellybutton?

quote:

9) Adam wasn't millions of years old at the time of original sin which contradicts the old earth theory.


I thought we were going to talk about evidence, not myths.

quote:

So reality confirms Genesis all the way around.


Then why can we see galaxies that are billions of light years away?


According to you and the ridiculous scientists, the earth just happened to rotate around the sun so the sun just happened to be in the exact position to the earth to provide light by day and be absent at night so as not to burn up the earth and allow living beings like humans to exist.

So since scientists can't explain why these things just happened to be in the perfect design to allow human life, they ignore that and come up with their own hilarious explanations that provide more holes than a sieve. so sorry, but GOD CREATED THE EARTH TO ROTATE SO THE SUN CAN PROVIDE WHAT WE NEED ON EARTH TO SUSTAIN LIFE.

Oh, humans who deny God will try anything to pretend they themselves are gods, but most people rely on the 7 day week because that's how God set up the lengths of days and nights.

So you think that animals not humans run the earth. Is that correct? if so, then you prove the ridiculous lies one has to pass along to deny God. [8|]

So where did the rock come from? Energy which is nothing more than an invisible potential? [sm=eek.gif] Sorry, but energy alone cannot create mass. energy is inherent in mass. That can only happen in the imaginations of men as you'll find out on judgment day, my friend. [;)]

These aren't even good arguments. [8|]



jeafl -> RE: Genesis (8/6/2008 10:36:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico

quote:

NIV Genesis 2:22, "Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man."


I've heard that the Hebrew word that is translated rib doesn't necessarily mean rib.



jeafl -> RE: Genesis (8/6/2008 10:47:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Method

The majority of life is single celled and does not gestate.


But don't most single celled organisms live in aquatic habitats? A watery habitat makes it easier for organisms to take in nutrients and expel wastes through osmosis and diffusion. Even human cells are bathed in water for this purpose. Active transport for everything that has to move across cellular membranes would take too much energy for most organisms.

quote:

Man is not made up of silica while the major component of dust is silica. So much for that idea.


Depends on how you define “dust’.

quote:

So why are so many people dying of malaria and other infectious diseases?


Isn’t malaria caused by either a virus, bacterium or protozoa- none of which are part of the animal kingdom?

quote:

Then why can we see galaxies that are billions of light years away?


Are you familiar with the theory that claims the universe expanded at much higher rates in the period immediately after the Big Bang than it has since? Chances are we cannot use distances between matter in the universe as a guide for the universe’s age.



Method -> RE: Genesis (8/6/2008 11:01:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico
According to you and the ridiculous scientists, the earth just happened to rotate around the sun so the sun just happened to be in the exact position to the earth to provide light by day and be absent at night so as not to burn up the earth and allow living beings like humans to exist.


You mean the Earth is not the right distance from the Sun in order to sustain life? Did God also make 7 other planets that are not the right distance from the Sun, and trillions of other planets that are not capable of sustaining life? Or were these dead planets made by other deities?

quote:

So since scientists can't explain why these things just happened to be in the perfect design to allow human life,


It's the same process that produced the other trillion or so planets that can not sustain human life. You might as well ask what lottery winners do differently than other lottery players.

quote:

so sorry, but GOD CREATED THE EARTH TO ROTATE SO THE SUN CAN PROVIDE WHAT WE NEED ON EARTH TO SUSTAIN LIFE.


Where can I read that in Genesis?

quote:

Oh, humans who deny God will try anything to pretend they themselves are gods, but most people rely on the 7 day week because that's how God set up the lengths of days and nights.


Say again? How does the length of the day tell us that the week should be seven days long? The week can have however many days we want.

quote:

So you think that animals not humans run the earth. Is that correct?


I think that no single species runs this Earth. A quick trip to a hospital will show you why this is.

quote:

So where did the rock come from? Energy which is nothing more than an invisible potential? [sm=eek.gif] Sorry, but energy alone cannot create mass. energy is inherent in mass. That can only happen in the imaginations of men as you'll find out on judgment day, my friend. [;)]


Rock comes from a process we can observe right now, supernovae explosions.

quote:

These aren't even good arguments. [8|]


So how many ribs do men have? Fewer, less, or the same as women?



drj11 -> RE: Genesis (8/6/2008 11:11:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jeafl
Are you familiar with the theory that claims the universe expanded at much higher rates in the period immediately after the Big Bang than it has since? Chances are we cannot use distances between matter in the universe as a guide for the universe’s age.


Your talking about a huge margin of error here... as it stands we can see objects almost as far away as the universe is old... 13 billion years. You want to say that the error is so gross, that 13 billion years gets compressed into a mere 10k? If scientists were that incompetent, we wouldnt be able to talk to each other via networked computers like we do.

As it stands there's no working model for physics that can accommodate a 10k-ish old universe.

You know how you always hear the 'fine tuning' argument from creationists? How the universe is just perfect for life etc etc? Well all that goes to heck when you mess with the speed of light and try and cram the entire universe lifespan into a few thousand years. It just doesn't work any other way.



Method -> RE: Genesis (8/6/2008 11:12:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jeafl
But don't most single celled organisms live in aquatic habitats?


Tough to say. However, soil is loaded as are our own guts and every outer surface of our bodies. If you were to take a count of the cells from the soles of your feet to the top of your head bacterial cells would outnumber your own cells by a ratio of 100 to 1.

quote:

Depends on how you define “dust’.


I define it as the stuff outside on the ground.

quote:

Malaria is caused by a protozoan which is an animal, an animal within the phylum


Very true. It would seem then that Kingdom Animalia is not even at the top, much less humans.

I was thinking that protists had been pulled in the animal kingdom, but they remain in their own kingdom. Thanks for pointing out the error.


quote:

Are you familiar with the theory that claims the universe expanded at much higher rates in the period immediately after the Big Bang than it has since? Chances are we cannot use distances between matter in the universe as a guide for the universe’s age.


This initial expansion did not take mass with it and it predated the formation of galaxies. Even if the initial expansion took mass with it it still can not explain why we can see mature galaxies billions of light years away, or type Ia supernovae which act as standard candles for measuring redshift. Also, if this extreme inflation occurred between us and distant galaxies we would not be able to see them due to the fact that the accumulated expansion would be greater than the speed of light.



Carico -> RE: Genesis (8/6/2008 11:44:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Method

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico
According to you and the ridiculous scientists, the earth just happened to rotate around the sun so the sun just happened to be in the exact position to the earth to provide light by day and be absent at night so as not to burn up the earth and allow living beings like humans to exist.


You mean the Earth is not the right distance from the Sun in order to sustain life? Did God also make 7 other planets that are not the right distance from the Sun, and trillions of other planets that are not capable of sustaining life? Or were these dead planets made by other deities?

quote:

So since scientists can't explain why these things just happened to be in the perfect design to allow human life,


It's the same process that produced the other trillion or so planets that can not sustain human life. You might as well ask what lottery winners do differently than other lottery players.

quote:

so sorry, but GOD CREATED THE EARTH TO ROTATE SO THE SUN CAN PROVIDE WHAT WE NEED ON EARTH TO SUSTAIN LIFE.


Where can I read that in Genesis?

quote:

Oh, humans who deny God will try anything to pretend they themselves are gods, but most people rely on the 7 day week because that's how God set up the lengths of days and nights.


Say again? How does the length of the day tell us that the week should be seven days long? The week can have however many days we want.

quote:

So you think that animals not humans run the earth. Is that correct?


I think that no single species runs this Earth. A quick trip to a hospital will show you why this is.

quote:

So where did the rock come from? Energy which is nothing more than an invisible potential? [sm=eek.gif] Sorry, but energy alone cannot create mass. energy is inherent in mass. That can only happen in the imaginations of men as you'll find out on judgment day, my friend. [;)]


Rock comes from a process we can observe right now, supernovae explosions.

quote:

These aren't even good arguments. [8|]


So how many ribs do men have? Fewer, less, or the same as women?

Genesis 1:1-31 describes the creation of the world. Obviously the sun couldn't set if the earth didn't rotate. Nowhere does Genesis say that the earth came from a BIG BANG! [sm=purplelaugh.gif][sm=purplelaugh.gif] Very convenient terminology that doesn't describe anything. That only shows that men can sit around and envision how the earth came into being and their imaginations can be considered facts, only if they have letters after their names. People who can't think for themselves are very easily duped. [;)]



cow451 -> RE: Genesis (8/7/2008 1:29:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico


Men have one less rib than women. That's a well known fact. [sm=icon_smile.gif]

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jeafl -> RE: Genesis (8/7/2008 9:44:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drj11

quote:

ORIGINAL: jeafl
Are you familiar with the theory that claims the universe expanded at much higher rates in the period immediately after the Big Bang than it has since? Chances are we cannot use distances between matter in the universe as a guide for the universe’s age.


Your talking about a huge margin of error here... as it stands we can see objects almost as far away as the universe is old... 13 billion years. You want to say that the error is so gross, that 13 billion years gets compressed into a mere 10k? If scientists were that incompetent, we wouldnt be able to talk to each other via networked computers like we do.

As it stands there's no working model for physics that can accommodate a 10k-ish old universe.

You know how you always hear the 'fine tuning' argument from creationists? How the universe is just perfect for life etc etc? Well all that goes to heck when you mess with the speed of light and try and cram the entire universe lifespan into a few thousand years. It just doesn't work any other way.


I am saying that no one who has ever lived on earth (except Jesus Christ) was around to witness the Big Bang or whatever other process it was that created the universe. We don’t know all of the details so any given explanation is as plausible as any other until we de know details.

The inflationary universe theory was proposed by Alan Guth, Andrei Linde, Andreas Albrecht and Paul Steinhardt. I am not aware that any of them are Creationists, so it likely is not the Creationists that are doing the “fine tuning”.

BTW: Where are you getting the 13 billion year figure from? Haven’t some estimates for the age of the universe ranged up to 20 billion years? If scientists once thought that the universe was 20 billion years old when it was really only 13 billion years old, how do they know 13 billion years isn’t really 6,000 years?



jeafl -> RE: Genesis (8/7/2008 9:59:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Method

quote:

Tough to say.


You are a zoologist and you don’t know about how important water is to living cells?

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I define it as the stuff outside on the ground.


Then how do you know that dust is comprised mostly of silica?

quote:

Malaria is caused by a protozoan which is an animal, an animal within the phylum


According to Wikipedia: “While there is no exact definition of the term, most scientists use protozoan to refer to a unicellular Heterotrophic protist.”

Can you tell me again what your college degree is in? Anyone who has taken high school biology would know that protists and animals are not the same thing, but yet you, as a zoologists, once believed that they are?

quote:

This initial expansion did not take mass with it and it predated the formation of galaxies.


Aren’t mass and energy equivalents of each other? Why didn’t galaxies form out of the energy that had been distributed by the Big Bang wherever the energy happened to be when the galaxies formed?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflationary_universe
According to the Cosmic Inflation theory the inflationary distribution of energy that happened right after the Big Bang did determine how matter would later be distributed in the universe: “Inflation also explains the origin of the large-scale structure of the cosmos. Quantum fluctuations in the microscopic inflationary region, magnified to cosmic size, become the seeds for the growth of structure in the universe…”



jeafl -> RE: Genesis (8/7/2008 10:07:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico
Genesis 1:1-31 describes the creation of the world. Obviously the sun couldn't set if the earth didn't rotate. Nowhere does Genesis say that the earth came from a BIG BANG! [sm=purplelaugh.gif][sm=purplelaugh.gif] Very convenient terminology that doesn't describe anything. That only shows that men can sit around and envision how the earth came into being and their imaginations can be considered facts, only if they have letters after their names. People who can't think for themselves are very easily duped. [;)]


Genesis is very short on details when it comes to explaining how God created the universe and all that it contains. You are a fool for trying to make Genesis say something that it does not say. There is nothing in Genesis that makes the Big Bang impossible. In fact many scientists were once reluctant to accept the Big Bang theory because it requires that the universe have a beginning and this suggests that Genesis could be true.



gluadys -> RE: Genesis (8/7/2008 12:46:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jeafl
We don’t know all of the details so any given explanation is as plausible as any other until we de know details.


That doesn't make sense. Any given explanation is plausible only when we know nothing. As long as we know some information, some explanations will be more plausible than others. The more information we gather, the more explanations can be ruled out altogether, leaving the most plausible to choose from, and even these can be differentiated, some more plausible than others.

It is not necessary to know all details in order to assign levels of plausibility (ranging from "none at all" to "very likely in view of current information") to a given explanation.



drj11 -> RE: Genesis (8/7/2008 2:19:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jeafl
I am saying that no one who has ever lived on earth (except Jesus Christ) was around to witness the Big Bang or whatever other process it was that created the universe. We don’t know all of the details so any given explanation is as plausible as any other until we de know details.


So are you saying that unless we have every detail, it is impossible to give more weight to some ideas than others? If I said I think the universe was sneezed out of the nose of the Great Green Arkleseizure, and the universe will end when the great white handkerchief appears, is that equally plausible with the big bang? Some theories arent more probable than others, given our current knowledge?

quote:


The inflationary universe theory was proposed by Alan Guth, Andrei Linde, Andreas Albrecht and Paul Steinhardt. I am not aware that any of them are Creationists, so it likely is not the Creationists that are doing the “fine tuning”.


I didnt' realize thats what you were referring to. I don't think any of the aspects of inflationary universe support a young universe (as method addressed above) so I assumed you were talking more about something else (like the theories about the speed of light not being a constant etc).

quote:


BTW: Where are you getting the 13 billion year figure from? Haven’t some estimates for the age of the universe ranged up to 20 billion years? If scientists once thought that the universe was 20 billion years old when it was really only 13 billion years old, how do they know 13 billion years isn’t really 6,000 years?


The farthest galaxies that we have been able to observe are about 13 billion light years away. The 13 billion was in reference to that distance, not the age of the entire universe. I just worded it poorly. Sometimes I don't proofread before I submit;)



swan42 -> RE: Genesis (8/10/2008 5:40:09 AM)

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2) the 7 day week because the 7 day week is determined by the length of each day and each night. That in turn established the 12 month year.


The definition of a 12 month year is historically/culturally influenced by the number of lunar phases that occur per year, approximately 12 per year. Surprise, the lunar phases per solar year do not divide properly. Each lunar phase is 29 days, 12 hours, 44 minutes. In other words, 29.53 days per lunar phase and 12.36 lunar phases per solar year.

Also, a blue moon isn't blue. It's the second full moon in a month that occurs when the 0.36 accumulates such that a 30 or 31 day calendar month that is longer than a lunar phase experiences two full moons.

The word month is a cognate of the word moon. They have the same linguistic origin.

quote:


Men have one less rib than women. That's a well known fact.


*giggle*. That's a well-known myth held by the ignorant.

My mother teases that my belly-button is the scar where the Yankees shot me.

You can confirm/deny this for yourself. You'll discover the number of ribs for women is the same as the number of ribs for a man.



scutus -> RE: Genesis (8/14/2008 4:52:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jeafl

BTW: Where are you getting the 13 billion year figure from? Haven’t some estimates for the age of the universe ranged up to 20 billion years? If scientists once thought that the universe was 20 billion years old when it was really only 13 billion years old, how do they know 13 billion years isn’t really 6,000 years?
You'll see some older websites still carrying the 20 billion figure, but that's a figure from around two decades ago. The current, refined figure is 13.7 billion years old, which the WMAP demonstrated quite convincingly.



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