Will Obama wake a sleepy church? (Full Version)

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Leslie_JnJs_mom -> Will Obama wake a sleepy church? (8/3/2008 2:32:08 PM)

Do you think if Obama comes into office with his partial birth abortion and being born alive does not entitle a person to actually live that it will stir the church into action. Some think that if we are put under enough pressure we will but others felt that many Christians in this country were spoiled and apathetic so they would not really care. I don't know about that but I thought I would ask your thoughts on this.



blessedinnyc -> RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? (8/3/2008 2:53:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leslie_JnJs_mom

Do you think if Obama comes into office with his partial birth abortion and being born alive does not entitle a person to actually live that it will stir the church into action. Some think that if we are put under enough pressure we will but others felt that many Christians in this country were spoiled and apathetic so they would not really care. I don't know about that but I thought I would ask your thoughts on this.

Doubt it. Historically, revivals have spanned about 30 years, and the one we're currently in started in the mid-to-late '70s. We are seeing some signs of the end of the revival at this point, so I would not be surprised to see the revival end and the church to go back to normal soon.



colliefan -> RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? (8/3/2008 4:52:45 PM)

quote:


and the one we're currently in started in the mid-to-late '70s.


The "Jesus Freak" movement is long dead. The spurt of church attedance after 9/11 lasted only a few months. Here in the US, with regional exceptions, is about as secular as Europe. The only places where revival and growth are taking place is in Africa and South America. No matter who is elected, the church will simply turn over and go back to sleep.



SuspenseWriter -> RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? (8/3/2008 4:55:59 PM)

As I've said on another thread, I believe Obama is being placed here by God to refine us as if by fire. For the first time since the Great (not-so-great, really) Society, we're going to have a Democratic President (one who is desperately in love with anything that goes against the Bible), along with a Democratically-controlled Congress. This means all bets are off. The stuff we've heard from Canada, with pastors being fined or shut down because they dared to speak against the homosexual lifestyle? We'll see it here as well. And worse. The sad fact is, there's no bottom to these people. Sin is like a drug, and they'll want us all to drink deep. The coming persecution may heal the Church, or it may fracture us further. We'll just have to see. At any rate, the next four years will prove interesting.



colliefan -> RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? (8/3/2008 4:59:58 PM)

If the church survived Nero, it can survive Nobama.



Leslie_JnJs_mom -> RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? (8/3/2008 7:06:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter

As I've said on another thread, I believe Obama is being placed here by God to refine us as if by fire. For the first time since the Great (not-so-great, really) Society, we're going to have a Democratic President (one who is desperately in love with anything that goes against the Bible), along with a Democratically-controlled Congress. This means all bets are off. The stuff we've heard from Canada, with pastors being fined or shut down because they dared to speak against the homosexual lifestyle? We'll see it here as well. And worse. The sad fact is, there's no bottom to these people. Sin is like a drug, and they'll want us all to drink deep. The coming persecution may heal the Church, or it may fracture us further. We'll just have to see. At any rate, the next four years will prove interesting.



I hope that does not happen. One lady in our church was saying that when Gods children disobey then he disciplines and it is not suppose to be comfortable.



Evangel70 -> RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? (8/3/2008 7:27:34 PM)

quote:

Some think that if we are put under enough pressure we will but others felt that many Christians in this country were spoiled and apathetic so they would not really care. I don't know about that but I thought I would ask your thoughts on this.


I agree that we have a spoiled and apathetic church that cares more about blending with society and keeping up with the Jones more than obeying the commands of God and preaching the gospel to all nations. Unforturnately, revival has to start with the church and many in the church are focusing their efforts on political hot-button issues like abortion and gay marriage rather than getting the church to come back to it's "first love".

IMO, as long as "the church" is looking to the government to legislate biblical behavior instead of modeling the desired behavior by being "salt and light" we will never see change in our society. Are Christian marriages examples of sacredness? Are teen pregnancies almost non-existent in the church because Christian teenagers and young adults are waiting until marriage before engaging in sexual behavior? Are Christian business owners running their business with such integrity that their employees see Jesus--even if it means losing business they would otherwise get?

Remember, Jesus didn't ask his disciples to run for offices in the Roman Senate so they could create a "Christian" society. Rather, He told them to go and make disciples of all nations and that while doing so, they will be beaten, thrown into jail, mocked and ridiculed. Yet, we wouldn't be Christians, today had Peter, Paul, Timothy, etc. had been political candidates instead of servants of the most high.

Revival, like judgement, has to start with the house of God. Are we ready?



Dubya -> RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? (8/3/2008 8:08:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Evangel70

quote:

Some think that if we are put under enough pressure we will but others felt that many Christians in this country were spoiled and apathetic so they would not really care. I don't know about that but I thought I would ask your thoughts on this.


I agree that we have a spoiled and apathetic church that cares more about blending with society and keeping up with the Jones more than obeying the commands of God and preaching the gospel to all nations. Unforturnately, revival has to start with the church and many in the church are focusing their efforts on political hot-button issues like abortion and gay marriage rather than getting the church to come back to it's "first love".

IMO, as long as "the church" is looking to the government to legislate biblical behavior instead of modeling the desired behavior by being "salt and light" we will never see change in our society. Are Christian marriages examples of sacredness? Are teen pregnancies almost non-existent in the church because Christian teenagers and young adults are waiting until marriage before engaging in sexual behavior? Are Christian business owners running their business with such integrity that their employees see Jesus--even if it means losing business they would otherwise get?

Remember, Jesus didn't ask his disciples to run for offices in the Roman Senate so they could create a "Christian" society. Rather, He told them to go and make disciples of all nations and that while doing so, they will be beaten, thrown into jail, mocked and ridiculed. Yet, we wouldn't be Christians, today had Peter, Paul, Timothy, etc. had been political candidates instead of servants of the most high.

Revival, like judgement, has to start with the house of God. Are we ready?

So are we to sit by and simply allow the "new morality" to invade and control the church?

I think it is not only appropriate for Christians to make informed political decisions but it is their moral responsibility.

You made several statements which are quite true, however the sins of the church are not an excuse to simply allow society to slide even further downhill. We must certainly address all of the concerns you noted but we must use our privilege of the ballot-box whenever possible to preserve our values.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? (8/3/2008 10:00:32 PM)

There are enough christians who will gladly accept Obama's version of christianity and think nothing of it...

John



Leon_Figg3 -> RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? (8/3/2008 10:40:10 PM)

One of the most fascinating things I have found about CW is the diverseness of Christianity and how quick some of us are to accuse each other of not being true Chrisitans because we do not see everything a particualr way.

What exactly is a "sleepy church"

I thought the church was each and every one of us. We each make up the body. We each have our own roles in the church and the commubnity of believers.

I may be missing something but I do not see a "sleepy" church here in America. I see a church that is alive and working. Most of that work goes on unnoticed, but it is still going. Part of our trouble is that we seem to spend a whole lot of time and energy finding fault in each other.

Yes, there are very liberal leaning believers who seem to be out of touch with the Bible and a relationship with Christ. There are also very conservative believers who seem to be equally out of touch with the Bible and a relationship with Christ. However, has it has been throughout the history of the church, it has been the vast majority of Christians who fall between the two extremes that have done the work. Who have done what they could to be "salt and life".



blessedinnyc -> RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? (8/3/2008 11:11:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

There are enough christians who will gladly accept Obama's version of christianity and think nothing of it...

John

That's because it represents Biblical Christianity, rather than legalism.



Jhud -> RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? (8/3/2008 11:20:20 PM)

quote:

That's because it represents Biblical Christianity, rather than legalism.


I am not generally one to comment on the religious beliefs of either candidate because I don't think it is relevant, and it it's not my place to judge the heart of those I don't really know - but let's not pretend that Obama's faith, which no one here really knows, is definitively 'Biblical'.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? (8/3/2008 11:35:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

There are enough christians who will gladly accept Obama's version of christianity and think nothing of it...

John

That's because it represents Biblical Christianity, rather than legalism.


What Biblical Christianity supports the murder of the unborn, homosexuality and the church doctrine Obama was a member of for 20 years?

Has the ACLU printed a bible?

John



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? (8/3/2008 11:44:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

That's because it represents Biblical Christianity, rather than legalism.


I am not generally one to comment on the religious beliefs of either candidate because I don't think it is relevant, and it it's not my place to judge the heart of those I don't really know - but let's not pretend that Obama's faith, which no one here really knows, is definitively 'Biblical'.


If it's not relevant does that mean that one's religious beliefs and or faith doesn't have much influence on who and what a person does? That for the most part it's simply another sliver of the pie and not the foundation for one's character?

John



Jhud -> RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? (8/4/2008 3:36:43 AM)

quote:

If it's not relevant does that mean that one's religious beliefs and or faith doesn't have much influence on who and what a person does? That for the most part it's simply another sliver of the pie and not the foundation for one's character?


It may or may not - there are Christians who have been horrible political leaders and non-Christians who have been capable ones - I n terms of political leadership I am more concerned with what they intend to do.



Evangel70 -> RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? (8/4/2008 1:29:40 PM)

quote:

So are we to sit by and simply allow the "new morality" to invade and control the church?


Are you actually saying that you would like the government to control the church?!? Shouldn't morality issues in the church be handled through the leadership of the church following the biblical principles outlined in Matthew 18:15-16?

quote:

I think it is not only appropriate for Christians to make informed political decisions but it is their moral responsibility.


We agree here. Christians SHOULD vote. However, Christians should remember that they are voting for a secular role in a secular government and NOT voting for the head of the "church". A fellow believer's Christianity should not be questioned because they vote differently than another believer would.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? (8/4/2008 1:44:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Evangel70

We agree here. Christians SHOULD vote. However, Christians should remember that they are voting for a secular role in a secular government and NOT voting for the head of the "church". A fellow believer's Christianity should not be questioned because they vote differently than another believer would.


Who and what a person votes for isn't off limits and as a Christian one's vote subject to being held up to God's word, so it can and should be questioned on that level... If a person supports ungodly laws and those who create and maintain them they are subject to judgment...

John



SuspenseWriter -> RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? (8/4/2008 1:45:41 PM)

When I was inducted into the Army, I had to take an oath. There was a lot to it (a terrifying amount, to tell the truth), and it was pretty serious stuff. And one of the things I swore to was to abide by the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the UCMJ (and every vet out there will know where I'm going with this). In the service, the UCMJ is law. Period. From the time of induction to the time of discharge, every soldier, sailor, airman, and Marine is bound by its tenets.

So why is it Christians can be so cavalier about the Bible? God makes it quite clear where He stands on the killing of the unborn, the homosexual lifestyle, usuary, and so forth. So how did it come to be that a Christian can say, "yes, I'm born again, but I disregard God's teachings on certain topics; it's immaterial to me."

Like I said, how did we get to this point? Greasy grace? Sloppy agape? I don't know, but when a soldier's oath to abide by a secular document (the UCMJ) carries more gravity than a Christian's oath to abide by a heavenly document (the Word of God), then something has gone seriously, seriously wrong.

I'd rather err on the side of caution, and believe God really means what He says in the Word, than to slough it off and hope I've applied enough "greasy grace" to my soul when death comes knocking.



HighPlainsDrifter -> RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? (8/4/2008 1:49:16 PM)

quote:

A fellow believer's Christianity should not be questioned because they vote differently than another believer would.


I can, and will make that judgment.



Evangel70 -> RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? (8/4/2008 2:23:26 PM)

quote:

Who and what a person votes for isn't off limits and as a Christian one's vote subject to being held up to God's word, so it can and should be questioned on that level... If a person supports ungodly laws and those who create and maintain them they are subject to judgment...

John


quote:

So why is it Christians can be so cavalier about the Bible? God makes it quite clear where He stands on the killing of the unborn, the homosexual lifestyle, usuary, and so forth. So how did it come to be that a Christian can say, "yes, I'm born again, but I disregard God's teachings on certain topics; it's immaterial to me."


Here are two great examples of what's wrong with the church. My bible doesn't teach that the ONLY sins we should be concerned about are abortion and homosexuality. [8|]



Evangel70 -> RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? (8/4/2008 2:27:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HighPlainsDrifter

quote:

A fellow believer's Christianity should not be questioned because they vote differently than another believer would.


I can, and will make that judgment.


Wow! God gave you the ability to look into a person's heart and judge them? [sm=eek.gif] Where can I sign up for the "Help Jesus dispense judgement" club?



SuspenseWriter -> RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? (8/4/2008 2:52:01 PM)

quote:

Here are two great examples of what's wrong with the church. My bible doesn't teach that the ONLY sins we should be concerned about are abortion and homosexuality.


Of course not. They just happen to be the ones the liberals are so desperately in love with. Why? IMO, because those two issues play so well into satan's hand. They are anti-life.

Any Christian man who's ever felt his unborn son or daughter move in his wife's belly, any Christian woman who has felt that life stir inside her knows what I mean. And then to have a Christian support a candidate who'd dismember that child while alive...I can't fathom such a mindset. Why a Christian would endorse someone who embraces these abominations is beyond me. Hardened hearts, and a "me first; anything goes" lifestyle I guess.

At the end of the day, I'll have no one's sins to answer for but my own. I'm just glad supporting these agendas that satan is so intimately linked with won't be one of them.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? (8/4/2008 2:52:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Evangel70

quote:

Who and what a person votes for isn't off limits and as a Christian one's vote subject to being held up to God's word, so it can and should be questioned on that level... If a person supports ungodly laws and those who create and maintain them they are subject to judgment...

John


quote:

So why is it Christians can be so cavalier about the Bible? God makes it quite clear where He stands on the killing of the unborn, the homosexual lifestyle, usuary, and so forth. So how did it come to be that a Christian can say, "yes, I'm born again, but I disregard God's teachings on certain topics; it's immaterial to me."


Here are two great examples of what's wrong with the church. My bible doesn't teach that the ONLY sins we should be concerned about are abortion and homosexuality. [8|]


From your posts it would seem your bible teaches that God is ok with them... The above a clear examples, not the ONLY sins... If I post the entire list will that help things?

The problem here is denial...

John



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? (8/4/2008 2:56:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Evangel70

quote:

ORIGINAL: HighPlainsDrifter

quote:

A fellow believer's Christianity should not be questioned because they vote differently than another believer would.


I can, and will make that judgment.


Wow! God gave you the ability to look into a person's heart and judge them? [sm=eek.gif] Where can I sign up for the "Help Jesus dispense judgement" club?


One doesn't have to look INTO the heart of those who profess to support evil... Obama supports the murder of the unborn and homosexual lifestyle... Is one merely guessing that those things are wrong and making a blind judgment? Are you willing to post that such things are not against God's word? And if one isn't and or cannot judge how does one ever escape false prophets and teachers? How is the church to remove those who refuse to repent of sin? How does one judge what is sinful or not and avoid it?

John



blessedinnyc -> RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? (8/4/2008 4:44:17 PM)

quote:

I am not generally one to comment on the religious beliefs of either candidate because I don't think it is relevant, and it it's not my place to judge the heart of those I don't really know - but let's not pretend that Obama's faith, which no one here really knows, is definitively 'Biblical'.


Ok, Jack, you've got a point. Much of my view of Obama's faith has come as a result of the debate he's had with Dobson. I honestly, think that despite Dobson's career in Christianity, Obama had a better-thought-out interpretation of scripture. He also seemed better able to defend his position than Dobson.

Surely if Dobson spoke for the Holy Spirit, he'd know what to say and wouldn't trip over words, right? (Luke 12:12)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HighPlainsDrifter

I can, and will make that judgment.

That's really none of your business. My vote is between me and God. In fact, as more and more Christians get back to seeing things that way, we'll get back to electing better leaders.

I respect your right to vote for whomever you wish. I do not respect your right to make other peoples' votes your business.

quote:

What Biblical Christianity supports the murder of the unborn, homosexuality and the church doctrine Obama was a member of for 20 years?

I think you are proving my point that legalism doesn't make for healthy Christianity. A victory for Barack Obama represents a defeat for legalism, not Christianity.



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