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RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? - 8/4/2008 5:32:40 PM
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HighPlainsDrifter
Posts: 1286
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: The Great Sioux Empire
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quote:
That's really none of your business. My vote is between me and God. In fact, as more and more Christians get back to seeing things that way, we'll get back to electing better leaders.
I respect your right to vote for whomever you wish. I do not respect your right to make other peoples' votes your business.
Gee, blessed, I can't remember ever asking you who or what you voted for.
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Molon Labe
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RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? - 8/4/2008 5:47:43 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3983
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter
When I was inducted into the Army, I had to take an oath. There was a lot to it (a terrifying amount, to tell the truth), and it was pretty serious stuff. And one of the things I swore to was to abide by the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the UCMJ (and every vet out there will know where I'm going with this). In the service, the UCMJ is law. Period. From the time of induction to the time of discharge, every soldier, sailor, airman, and Marine is bound by its tenets.
So why is it Christians can be so cavalier about the Bible? God makes it quite clear where He stands on the killing of the unborn, the homosexual lifestyle, usuary, and so forth. So how did it come to be that a Christian can say, "yes, I'm born again, but I disregard God's teachings on certain topics; it's immaterial to me."
Like I said, how did we get to this point? Greasy grace? Sloppy agape? I don't know, but when a soldier's oath to abide by a secular document (the UCMJ) carries more gravity than a Christian's oath to abide by a heavenly document (the Word of God), then something has gone seriously, seriously wrong.
I'd rather err on the side of caution, and believe God really means what He says in the Word, than to slough it off and hope I've applied enough "greasy grace" to my soul when death comes knocking.
The analogy is a bit off. The UCMJ is much more specific than the Bible. There are not "denominations" that interpret the UCMJ differently.
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Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? - 8/4/2008 6:03:41 PM
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saved9201
Posts: 712
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter
When I was inducted into the Army, I had to take an oath. There was a lot to it (a terrifying amount, to tell the truth), and it was pretty serious stuff. And one of the things I swore to was to abide by the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the UCMJ (and every vet out there will know where I'm going with this). In the service, the UCMJ is law. Period. From the time of induction to the time of discharge, every soldier, sailor, airman, and Marine is bound by its tenets.
So why is it Christians can be so cavalier about the Bible? God makes it quite clear where He stands on the killing of the unborn, the homosexual lifestyle, usuary, and so forth. So how did it come to be that a Christian can say, "yes, I'm born again, but I disregard God's teachings on certain topics; it's immaterial to me."
Like I said, how did we get to this point? Greasy grace? Sloppy agape? I don't know, but when a soldier's oath to abide by a secular document (the UCMJ) carries more gravity than a Christian's oath to abide by a heavenly document (the Word of God), then something has gone seriously, seriously wrong.
I'd rather err on the side of caution, and believe God really means what He says in the Word, than to slough it off and hope I've applied enough "greasy grace" to my soul when death comes knocking.
The analogy is a bit off. The UCMJ is much more specific than the Bible. There are not "denominations" that interpret the UCMJ differently.
Moreover, how many churches do you know of where the members who break a rule like, (for example), not tithing, are forced to pay a fine and scrub the church from top to bottom for two weeks?
Not that there's anything wrong with that......
- Julius
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RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? - 8/4/2008 6:05:16 PM
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Leon_Figg3
Posts: 476
Joined: 4/24/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter
When I was inducted into the Army, I had to take an oath. There was a lot to it (a terrifying amount, to tell the truth), and it was pretty serious stuff. And one of the things I swore to was to abide by the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the UCMJ (and every vet out there will know where I'm going with this). In the service, the UCMJ is law. Period. From the time of induction to the time of discharge, every soldier, sailor, airman, and Marine is bound by its tenets.
So why is it Christians can be so cavalier about the Bible? God makes it quite clear where He stands on the killing of the unborn, the homosexual lifestyle, usuary, and so forth. So how did it come to be that a Christian can say, "yes, I'm born again, but I disregard God's teachings on certain topics; it's immaterial to me."
Like I said, how did we get to this point? Greasy grace? Sloppy agape? I don't know, but when a soldier's oath to abide by a secular document (the UCMJ) carries more gravity than a Christian's oath to abide by a heavenly document (the Word of God), then something has gone seriously, seriously wrong.
I'd rather err on the side of caution, and believe God really means what He says in the Word, than to slough it off and hope I've applied enough "greasy grace" to my soul when death comes knocking.
SuspenseWriter,
I hate to disagree with you, but I feel I must on a couple of points.
1. It's been a while since I have been in the military, but I believe the oath I took delt more with supporting and defending the Constitution than it did to the UCMJ. The UCMJ may have been mentioned in it but only so far as my conduct as a soldier was concerned.
2. I do not believe that the Bible is as crystal clear, as some would like to believe, on anything. It definately is not crystal clear on either the issue of abortion or the homosexual life style. The Bible does condemn murder and it does condemn homosexual acts. The Bible, or the scriptures, for that matter, were never meant to be crystal clear and be the answer to all the issues of life that sin brought into the world. The Bible, and the scriptures were to point us back to each person having a personal relationship with God.
Abortion and the homosexual lifestyle are symptoms of deeper issues. Until we Christians start dealing with these deeper issues, within our own community, and others, we are not going to get anywhere with any moral issue in this country.
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To whom much is given, much is expected. Luke 12:48
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RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? - 8/4/2008 6:35:18 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Ok, Jack, you've got a point. Much of my view of Obama's faith has come as a result of the debate he's had with Dobson. I honestly, think that despite Dobson's career in Christianity, Obama had a better-thought-out interpretation of scripture. He also seemed better able to defend his position than Dobson.
Surely if Dobson spoke for the Holy Spirit, he'd know what to say and wouldn't trip over words, right? (Luke 12:12)
Obama interpretation of scripture must include God supporting murder and sexual perversion...
quote:
That's really none of your business. My vote is between me and God. In fact, as more and more Christians get back to seeing things that way, we'll get back to electing better leaders.
I respect your right to vote for whomever you wish. I do not respect your right to make other peoples' votes your business.
When one claims to be of Christ they fall under the jurisdiction of the body and are subject to judgment regarding their actions...
quote:
I think you are proving my point that legalism doesn't make for healthy Christianity. A victory for Barack Obama represents a defeat for legalism, not Christianity.
How do you connect murder and homosexuality to legalism?
Please, by all means make your case for the above falling under the guides of Christian liberty...
The only thing being proved here is you believe the such things like murder and sexual perversion fall under Christian liberty...
John
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RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? - 8/4/2008 6:36:48 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter
When I was inducted into the Army, I had to take an oath. There was a lot to it (a terrifying amount, to tell the truth), and it was pretty serious stuff. And one of the things I swore to was to abide by the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the UCMJ (and every vet out there will know where I'm going with this). In the service, the UCMJ is law. Period. From the time of induction to the time of discharge, every soldier, sailor, airman, and Marine is bound by its tenets.
So why is it Christians can be so cavalier about the Bible? God makes it quite clear where He stands on the killing of the unborn, the homosexual lifestyle, usuary, and so forth. So how did it come to be that a Christian can say, "yes, I'm born again, but I disregard God's teachings on certain topics; it's immaterial to me."
Like I said, how did we get to this point? Greasy grace? Sloppy agape? I don't know, but when a soldier's oath to abide by a secular document (the UCMJ) carries more gravity than a Christian's oath to abide by a heavenly document (the Word of God), then something has gone seriously, seriously wrong.
I'd rather err on the side of caution, and believe God really means what He says in the Word, than to slough it off and hope I've applied enough "greasy grace" to my soul when death comes knocking.
The analogy is a bit off. The UCMJ is much more specific than the Bible. There are not "denominations" that interpret the UCMJ differently.
Saying God is ok with homosexuality isn't a matter of interpretation...
John
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RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? - 8/4/2008 6:38:14 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: saved9201
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter
When I was inducted into the Army, I had to take an oath. There was a lot to it (a terrifying amount, to tell the truth), and it was pretty serious stuff. And one of the things I swore to was to abide by the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the UCMJ (and every vet out there will know where I'm going with this). In the service, the UCMJ is law. Period. From the time of induction to the time of discharge, every soldier, sailor, airman, and Marine is bound by its tenets.
So why is it Christians can be so cavalier about the Bible? God makes it quite clear where He stands on the killing of the unborn, the homosexual lifestyle, usuary, and so forth. So how did it come to be that a Christian can say, "yes, I'm born again, but I disregard God's teachings on certain topics; it's immaterial to me."
Like I said, how did we get to this point? Greasy grace? Sloppy agape? I don't know, but when a soldier's oath to abide by a secular document (the UCMJ) carries more gravity than a Christian's oath to abide by a heavenly document (the Word of God), then something has gone seriously, seriously wrong.
I'd rather err on the side of caution, and believe God really means what He says in the Word, than to slough it off and hope I've applied enough "greasy grace" to my soul when death comes knocking.
The analogy is a bit off. The UCMJ is much more specific than the Bible. There are not "denominations" that interpret the UCMJ differently.
Moreover, how many churches do you know of where the members who break a rule like, (for example), not tithing, are forced to pay a fine and scrub the church from top to bottom for two weeks?
Not that there's anything wrong with that......
- Julius
Not enough churches deal with sinning members...
John
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RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? - 8/4/2008 6:43:35 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 1019
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: HighPlainsDrifter
I can, and will make that judgment.
That's really none of your business. My vote is between me and God. In fact, as more and more Christians get back to seeing things that way, we'll get back to electing better leaders.
Actually, the way Obama, McCain, and every other elected official votes on each and every issue is most definitely my business... and that is how I will decide my vote.
How you vote is none of my business and how I vote is none of yours. But don't ever say that the way elected official vote is none of my business. That is the basis of our decision making process (or at least should be).
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RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? - 8/4/2008 7:00:06 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Obama interpretation of scripture must include God supporting murder and sexual perversion...
Verses that suggest that we should overpower non-Christians and force them to conform to our morality are located in...?
quote:
When one claims to be of Christ they fall under the jurisdiction of the body and are subject to judgment regarding their actions...
Politics generally don't have a material impact on the church, except for the fact that anti-Christian political leaders tend to strengthen the church. I don't necessarily believe that Obama is opposed to Christ in principle like many Conservatives claim.
quote:
How do you connect murder and homosexuality to legalism?
Please, by all means make your case for the above falling under the guides of Christian liberty...
The only thing being proved here is you believe the such things like murder and sexual perversion fall under Christian liberty...
Jesus suggests examining teachings by their fruit:
-Conservatives have controlled judicial appointments for 24 of the roughly 36 years since Roe vs. Wade, abortions have gone up, and Jesus has become associated with angry people with signs.
-A non-political Church wouldn't have done anything to stop abortion on a political level, but we could have directed our efforts to an individual level (as many churches have done very successfully) and could have stuck to our role of being the weirdos who help the homeless, elderly, and single moms.
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RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? - 8/4/2008 7:01:11 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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I belive if Obama said he supports pedophiles people would be ok with it... And why not, the man supports the murder of children, so how is rape any worse...
As well Obama support for homosexuality is support for the spiritual death of a person... Which in the bigger picture is even worse than his support for the murder of the unborn...
Sad... And it still won't even cause a stir in the church...
John
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RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? - 8/4/2008 7:07:51 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
Actually, the way Obama, McCain, and every other elected official votes on each and every issue is most definitely my business... and that is how I will decide my vote.
How you vote is none of my business and how I vote is none of yours. But don't ever say that the way elected official vote is none of my business. That is the basis of our decision making process (or at least should be).
I actually agree with you, here. We live in a Democracy, and these guys are accountable to you and me. It's totally cool to question how in heaven's name they could have voted for some of these foolish bills.
What I find fault with is people going around saying, "XYZ is a horrible person for voting for politician QRS." I'm just saying there's a reason we use a secret ballot. I would recommend that all Christians state that they wrote Jesus in on their ballot, but then Al Gore (and some Conservatives) would attack them for throwing their vote away. 
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RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? - 8/4/2008 7:14:00 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 1019
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Evangel70
quote:
So are we to sit by and simply allow the "new morality" to invade and control the church?
Are you actually saying that you would like the government to control the church?!?
No, of course not... that was the very point I was trying to make. I don't want the politically correct environment telling my church that they cannot choose not to hire homosexuals in any capacity. I also don't want the speech police arresting my pastor for preaching one of the passages against homesexuality and sexually deviant behavior.
I know that is not the cased in the U.S. today, but considering it has happened in Canada and some European countries I think it is certainly possible to happen here if we sit on our hands and do nothing.quote:
quote:
I think it is not only appropriate for Christians to make informed political decisions but it is their moral responsibility.
We agree here. Christians SHOULD vote. However, Christians should remember that they are voting for a secular role in a secular government and NOT voting for the head of the "church". A fellow believer's Christianity should not be questioned because they vote differently than another believer would.
I don't question any private citizen's vote. I do question votes made by legislators like Obama and any other elected official.
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RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? - 8/4/2008 7:14:24 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Verses that suggest that we should overpower non-Christians and force them to conform to our morality are located in...?
We are talking about a man who claims Christ and supports the murder of the unborn and sexual perversion... Other than yourself in order to deflect this truth away from the debate who is talking about and or suggesting anything about forcing anyone to do something... Only you...
Again...
Obama's interpretation of scripture must include God supporting murder and sexual perversion...
By all means refute the above... Prove that he doesn't support them and you will convince me you are correct and I am wrong...
quote:
Politics generally don't have a material impact on the church,
I doubt those in live in places where the government says it's against the law to believe agree...
quote:
and anti-Christian leaders tend to strengthen the church.
God using evil for good isn't a valid reason to support evil....
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Apparently, legalism also refers to ad-hominems. Jesus suggests examining teachings by their fruit:
Apparently you cannot deal with not olny the fact but your own words...
Were is the fruit of murder and homosexuality?
We have been here before and you never deal with this... It always gets turned into something else, yet at the end of the day a man who claims Christ is supporting the death of the unborn and sexual perversion and no matter how many times one says those things fall under Christian liberty they don't, never have and never will...
quote:
-Conservatives have controlled judicial appointments for 24 of the roughly 36 years since Roe vs. Wade, abortions have gone up, and Jesus has become associated with angry people with signs.
What does that have to do with Obama's support for evil agendas?
quote:
-A non-political Church wouldn't have done anything to stop abortion on a political level, but we could have directed our efforts to an individual level (as many churches have done very successfully) and could have stuck to our role of being the weirdos who help the homeless, elderly, and single moms.
While voting for those who believe the murder of the unborn is ok and that sexual perversion is as well...
Sorry but I don't a believe sending such a double message will do the job... That doesn't make any sense on any level...
Voting for support for the murder of 3500 children daily isn't wiped away because one bought a homeless person a Happy Meal...
John
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RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? - 8/4/2008 7:17:48 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
What I find fault with is people going around saying, "XYZ is a horrible person for voting for politician QRS."
People who support evil things are horrible... People that plan to murder, rape, steal, lie, whatever are not nice, they are horrible...
quote:
I'm just saying there's a reason we use a secret ballot.
Lot's of things are done in secret and most are not good things...
John
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RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? - 8/4/2008 7:43:31 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Obama's interpretation of scripture must include God supporting murder and sexual perversion...
By all means refute the above... Prove that he doesn't support them and you will convince me you are correct and I am wrong...
Does McCain's interpretation of scripture, therefore, have God supporting the deaths of thousands of civilians in Iraq and Iran?
quote:
I doubt those in live in places where the government says it's against the law to believe agree...
There's a difference between oppression and politics.
quote:
God using evil for good isn't a valid reason to support evil....
That's only if I believe I'm supporting evil. And I don't think anyone who votes for a politician (except for maybe some random Satanist) really does believe that. I guess we will have to wait and see so we can judge them by their fruit.
While abortion increased under Reagan, it decreased under Clinton, for the record.
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Apparently you cannot deal with not olny the fact but your own words...
Were is the fruit of murder and homosexuality?
I think I see it ripening on the tree of conservatism.
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While voting for those who believe the murder of the unborn is ok and that sexual perversion is as well...
This would be an example of something that wouldn't be compatible with a non-political church.
quote:
Sorry but I don't a believe sending such a double message will do the job... That doesn't make any sense on any level...
Voting for support for the murder of 3500 children daily isn't wiped away because one bought a homeless person a Happy Meal...
Then I guess each Christian will have to work out his/her own vote on his/her own.
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RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? - 8/4/2008 7:46:00 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
People who support evil things are horrible... People that plan to murder, rape, steal, lie, whatever are not nice, they are horrible...
In other words, they are sinners like us. Jesus offers grace to everyone.
quote:
Lot's of things are done in secret and most are not good things...
Like voting conservative?
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RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? - 8/4/2008 10:33:41 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
]ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Does McCain's interpretation of scripture, therefore, have God supporting the deaths of thousands of civilians in Iraq and Iran?
What does McCain have to do with what Obama believes? Other than you wishing to mask what Obama is about...
Btw... I don't support McCain...
quote:
There's a difference between oppression and politics.
On what planet when it's the government doing the oppression? You can pretend that everything resides in little bubbles but the world isn't that way...
quote:
That's only if I believe I'm supporting evil.
Is that how Obama says he's a Christian and supports the murder of the unborn and sexual perversion?
quote:
And I don't think anyone who votes for a politician (except for maybe some random Satanist) really does believe that. I guess we will have to wait and see so we can judge them by their fruit.
Obama has a voting record and it says he supports murder and sexual perversion... His fruit...
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While abortion increased under Reagan, it decreased under Clinton, for the record.
No thanks to Clinton... It's safe bet to assume he's probably personally responsible for a few of them given his "fruit"...
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I think I see it ripening on the tree of conservatism.
I see nothing but pure obfuscation... The last thing you'll ever talk about is the truth regarding Obama and his ungodly beliefs...
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This would be an example of something that wouldn't be compatible with a non-political church.
When we are beamed to the planet where there is such a thing maybe that will matter...
John
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RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? - 8/4/2008 10:37:28 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
In other words, they are sinners like us. Jesus offers grace to everyone.
No, they are in rebellion against God and the grace that Jesus offers is foolishness to them and they laugh it off while they murder, rape, steal and lie...
quote:
Like voting conservative?
Actually like murder and sexual perversion that Obama supports... Those things you can seem to deal with... Sad that you think it is funny...
John
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RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? - 8/4/2008 10:44:32 PM
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Leon_Figg3
Posts: 476
Joined: 4/24/2005
Status: offline
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Maybe this thread needs to be transferred to a theology section, it seems to have gone way off topic.
_____________________________
To whom much is given, much is expected. Luke 12:48
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RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? - 8/4/2008 10:57:16 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
No, they are in rebellion against God and the grace that Jesus offers is foolishness to them and they laugh it off while they murder, rape, steal and lie...
Again, sounds like most sinners. Welcome to the post-Eden world.
quote:
Actually like murder and sexual perversion that Obama supports... Those things you can seem to deal with...
I think there are some conservative Senators and congressmen you need to be voting against.
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RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? - 8/4/2008 11:07:38 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Again, sounds like most sinners. Welcome to the post-Eden world.
Actually that's not what you first said...
In other words, they are sinners like us. Jesus offers grace to everyone.
God's people are not like most sinners...
quote:
Actually like murder and sexual perversion that Obama supports... Those things you can seem to deal with...
I think there are some conservative Senators and congressmen you need to be voting against.
I am from California... Don't make me laugh... Though of course you once again ignored Obama's issues...
John
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RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? - 8/4/2008 11:09:47 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
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quote:
A victory for Barack Obama represents a defeat for legalism, not Christianity.
But Barry spent a good deal of time in a church emeshed in Black Liberation theology which is based entirely on legalism. One is saved by freeing individuals from their poverty. The blood of Christ is od no avail.
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RE: Will Obama wake a sleepy church? - 8/4/2008 11:12:57 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
What does McCain have to do with what Obama believes? Other than you wishing to mask what Obama is about...
Btw... I don't support McCain...
Then you support Obama. After all, if you're not with the Republican presidential nominee, you're against him. 
quote:
On what planet when it's the government doing the oppression? You can pretend that everything resides in little bubbles but the world isn't that way...
If the US loses its rights-based democracy, the government wouldn't be involved in politics anymore.
quote:
Is that how Obama says he's a Christian and supports the murder of the unborn and sexual perversion?
I really don't know. I just know that the odds of this election resolving the abortion issue are about 1 in 1,000,000, so for me, the issue is pretty moot. I'll admit I can't defend abortion, although I think it's silly to call a politician a murderer for not wanting to prevent a woman from taking a life that she isn't necessarily sure really exists, yet.
quote:
Obama has a voting record and it says he supports murder and sexual perversion... His fruit...
A voting record isn't really the kind of tangible fruit Jesus was talking about, IMHO.
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I see nothing but pure obfuscation... The last thing you'll ever talk about is the truth regarding Obama and his ungodly beliefs...
Well, wait a sec. We've been talking about Obama and his ungodly beliefs since Rush Limbaugh realized he had a chance to become the next president. When are we gonna talk about his alternatives?
quote:
When we are beamed to the planet where there is such a thing maybe that will matter...
Would you settle for a time machine with the dial set to anything before the mid-70s?
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