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RE: What are the qualifications to be a Preacher? - 8/8/2008 9:45:57 PM
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zheychua
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My husband realized just a few months ago that he might want to consider the pastoral ministry. This was after a series of so-called backsliding and rebelling against God. Our Pastor in church told him he is disqualified for the pastorate because of his past and pointed him to scriptures. Here is the article my husband wrote on this matter, which he supported with Scriptures. I hope it will help:
http://balutpress.com/zhey/2008/08/07/can-fallen-leaders-be-restored-disqualified-revisited/#more-318
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RE: What are the qualifications to be a Preacher? - 8/8/2008 10:35:50 PM
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JCMK
Posts: 119
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Focusing - No, I don't have any bitterness toward my Pastor. He had nothing to do with my divorce. I have known him 40+ years, been close friends, and he and his wife care about me.
I'd like to get back to the basic question of this OP.
What are the qualifications for a man to Preach? Are they same as the qualifications for a Bishop (Pastor) and Deacon? Or, should any man who says/feels that he is called to preach be allowed to get behind the Pulpit?
Think about this:
If anyone is allowed to preach, even if they do not meet the requirements as stated in I Timothy, chapter 3, then what should be done when that person decides they want to move up to the position of Pastor or Deacon?
Also, many people have a gift to give speeches and talk pretty. Many people have studied the Bible, can quote scriptures, and talk for 45 minutes about the Word of God. But are they called by God? Are they anointed? Will their words reach the hearts of people?
I understand that everything is not black or white. In general, life is grey. But when it comes to the Word of God, most of it is one way or the other. God doesn't allow us to do "our own thing".
The effect that this is having on me personally is pretty important because I have been holding onto my Church almost desperately since my divorce. I need my Church and my Church family. I need to go where I am known and with the people that I know. I don't want our Church to be split over any reason. I don't want to feel like I have to find a new Church at this point in my life. I want our Church to prosper for a lot of reasons - not just for me. The actions of this man is causing a split in our Church. The reason for my question is because I have prayed and studied the Bible and consulted with my Dad because I want to know what is right. And then stand for it. I'm not trying to take sides. I only want to stand for God's will and what He commands in His Word. I feel like I am holding on for dear life. It grieves my heart to see what is going on. I wanted answers to my one question in hopes that it would help me know if what I have been taught all my life is right or wrong.
Divisions in Churches are always caused by the devil working through people. I'm sure that you all know that. I want to be on the side of the right and not be deceived by the devil. The Word of God is our guide, but sometimes it isn't cut and dry. I thought this subject was, but apparently it isn't.
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RE: What are the qualifications to be a Preacher? - 8/8/2008 11:29:39 PM
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petalfin
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all of us Christians are called to preach
when we're evangelizing to others, we're basically preaching
the main qualifications of a preacher is this: he must be a Christian
we can remember the parable of the soils (Matthew 13)
where the sower sows the seed
and that seed is the Word of God
basically this sower is preaching the word of God
now if that seed didnt "successfully" germinate in a certain soil
we shouldnt conclude that theres a problem with the seed now should we?
because the seed will always be seed
so concerning the part that you mentioned about many people can give pretty talks
that doesnt guarantee the seed will germinate
because the problem is with the condition of the soil
not with the condition of the seed
because in saying so would conclude that theres a problem with God's words
so the soil is either hard, stony, weedy, or good
these are the 4 kinds of soil in Christ's parables
and only the good soil (or heart) can receive the seed
now thats comforting for us folks who are insecure in the way we speak in front many people
because you really dont have to add gimiks or strategies to spread the seed out
all you do is just throw the seed
thats it
and it wont be your problem if the seed didnt germinate
because only God makes things grow
"I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth." 1Co 3:6
so going back in the context of the parables
if the soil receives the seed
then what does it do next?
it produces more seeds ofcourse
same thing with the Christian
it should be natural for the Christian to produce the seed because he has the seed in him
so it is natural for the Christian to preach the gospel
i hope this makes sense
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RE: What are the qualifications to be a Preacher? - 8/8/2008 11:47:22 PM
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ironsharpensiron
Posts: 147
Joined: 4/21/2006
From: Los Angeles
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quote:
If anyone is allowed to preach, even if they do not meet the requirements as stated in I Timothy, chapter 3, then what should be done when that person decides they want to move up to the position of Pastor or Deacon?
Also, many people have a gift to give speeches and talk pretty. Many people have studied the Bible, can quote scriptures, and talk for 45 minutes about the Word of God. But are they called by God? Are they anointed? Will their words reach the hearts of people?
I understand that everything is not black or white. In general, life is grey. But when it comes to the Word of God, most of it is one way or the other. God doesn't allow us to do "our own thing".
God's Word never returns void. It is planting a seed in someones heart, where it will stay until someone else come's along and waters it, and another to nurture it, until it grows into a beautiful creation of God. Anointed to preach or not, God's Word is very powerful.
Truthfully I cannot answer your original OP in the way you would like. I'm not sure anyone can. Let me leave you with this; how do you know this man is not anointed of God to preach..? Just because your skin doesn't tingle when he preaches the Word doesn't mean the Word he preaches is not anointed. How do you know he doesn't have a calling on his life..? Has God told you that during your prayertime..?
As I eluded to in a past post if the pastor has no problem with it, and allows it, I believe it is a calling of God to use his gifts that the Lord has blessed him with. As you have stated yourself, you are close with the pastor and have known him for a very long time. Would he lead you astray..? Would he lead the flock of the church astray for one man..? I don't believe so or else you wouldn't be under your pastor's tutilage.
Personally, I truly feel in my heart there are other issues involved, and not just within your heart, but in hearts of other members of your congregation. It isn't always the enemy to blame, although we sure like to blame him and give him credit for many things that go wrong~~especially in the church, such as divisions. There's a disturbance in the church, oh, it must be that ol' devil again...I don't think so. People are people and like to find fault if there is the slightest change in the way things are run.
I feel there is a spirit of pride that is overwhelming. As well as a spirit of unforgiveness.
Question...has anyone really actually sat down and spoke to the pastor about these concerns over this man..? With the man in question, has he been asked why he preaches the way he does..?
I think you'll find open communication in a Godly, loving fashion works wonders...
matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: What are the qualifications to be a Preacher? - 8/9/2008 5:59:34 PM
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JCMK
Posts: 119
Joined: 12/30/2007
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Okay....I know a lot more about this man than I feel comfortable telling here. I didn't want to get into the details of his life - just let it be known that he does NOT live like he should. That's not a judgment on my part - it's a fact.
What I was hoping to hear was the Biblical qualifications for any man to preach. I have read the Bible for 45 years and have studied this subject thoroughly the last few weeks, but I wanted to make sure that I hadn't missed anything.
If we in the church who agree that the man should not get behind the pulpit - and that is half of the congregation - we would be able to use the Biblical scriptures to point out to the Pastor why he shouldn't be allowed behind the pulpit. This would be so much better than using the other information that would hurt a whole lot more people and even cause a stir in the neighborhood.
I can't be more specific than that. I appreciate your comments. For my part, I feel that I don't have an answer. Maybe there isn't one.
It's not my place to take any steps toward removing this man, so I will just hope and pray that God can do the job. God can do anything, but it sometimes takes the cooperation of man to see that His will is done.
Thanks everybody!
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RE: What are the qualifications to be a Preacher? - 8/9/2008 8:54:13 PM
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Theophile2
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JCMK –
I think you have the right to ask the questions you are asking. You have the right to want your non-denominational community church to flourish. You have the right to want to be surrounded by loving Christian friends in your time of need following your own divorce.
So the first thing I would say, is that before you make any decisions while being emotionally distraught over your divorce, is to continue steadfast in prayer over your church, and stay connected with those you trust in your church.
But, there are a few things that still need addressed in your OP and subsequent postings.
quote:
Actually, I don't think it matters what the particulars are - he has two living wives, and in my opinion that disqualifies him from preaching. I wanted to know how other Ministers and Pastors felt and if they would allow a man with two living wives to "preach" in their church.
gmc4Jesus answer to this item is a good start for this. Point of fact, not in terms of divorce/remarriage but in terms of qualifications pertaining to this post, is that the particulars do matter. Both Jesus and the Apostle Paul give guidance on when it is acceptable to divorce (Mt 19:9; Ro 7:2-3; 1Cor 7:10-13; 1Cor 7:39). You provided the conditions under which the person in question divorced and remarried. He violated Christ’s rules. Period. BUT now that he is re-married, what do you want him to do? Sin again by divorcing his new wife to go back to the old? This also would be wrong.
What he should be doing, is consecrating his new marriage under the authority of Christ and the full Word of God. As was said previously, divorce and adultery are not the unforgivable sin. You seem to indicate he still isn’t living a very sanctified life as it pertains to the qualifications of leadership provided in 1 Tim 3.
I would offer that one of the prayers you may consider offering up to God is that his current marriage would be sanctified in the power of the Holy Spirit.
2Ti 2:21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.
You also mentioned how you view this man’s message, as one that is lacking in love and inspiration. The Apostle Paul had the same problems:
Php 1:15-16 ESV Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. (16) The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel.
But as I mention below, the question is whether or not your senior Pastor is discerning enough to know if this person is capable of preaching the Word of God accurately or not. More on this later.
quote:
I believe that a Pastor is also called an Elder, Overseer, Servant, Steward, Bishop and other titles. Therefore, if a Pastor is all of those things, shouldn't anyone who gets behind the pulpit also be required to meet these standards in I Timothy, chapter 3?
DaveW answer to this post is also a good thought piece. I think sometimes we get a little too legalistic in the terms we use. Is it possible that what you may be trying to get at, is the difference between the qualifications for a position of leadership, and the poor judgment of an unaccountable senior pastor.
quote:
No, I don't believe that we are all called to Preach - as in behind the pulpit. I am a woman and therefore not allowed to preach by the very same Bible. I couldn't be jealous. That isn't possible since I am a woman and have never felt the call the preach. My spirit is troubled when someone gets behind our pulpit that I believe the Bible says is not qualified.
Sort of goes with the previous comment. How about if we take a look at 1 Pe 2 for a minute:
1Pe 2:4-9 ESV As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, (5) you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. (6) For it stands in Scripture: "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame." (7) So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, "The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone," (8) and "A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense." They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. (9) But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
Compare Re 1:6, Re 5:10, Re 20:6
So, what Peter is saying, is that we are ALL “priests” so to speak, and we are ALL called to be “holy”:
1Pe 1:14-16 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, (15) but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, (16) since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." (2Ti 1:9; 2Ti 2:21)
Rom 2:21-24 you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? (22) You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? (23) You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law. (24) For, as it is written, "The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."
So, if we are all members of a royal and holy priesthood, do you not believe, that with your 45 years of studying the Bible, you have any responsibility to teach what you have learned?
Tit 2:3-5 Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, (4) and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, (5) to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.
One way or another, as members of the royal AND holy priesthood, we all have the responsibility to proclaim Christ. Each of us, as individual building blocks of the spiritual church and members of the body of Christ, have a different calling in the way we express the great commission. St. Francis of Assisi said, “Preach the Gospel always and if necessary use words.” How does the great commission, Titus 2, and this concept from St Francis affect your view of “preaching” the Word of God? Are we still talking about preaching, or is your question about qualifications for leadership, and whether or not there is accountability to preach good doctrine when given the pulpit in a church?
If this is the case, I would offer that another prayer you could submit to Christ is that your Senior Pastor would be given a discerning spirit, and that your Elders (Deacons, or whatever you call them in your church) are also given a discerning spirit in good church order and the qualifications of a man given a position of leadership – explicit or implied.
Or is the issue something else ….
quote:
The effect that this is having on me personally is pretty important because I have been holding onto my Church almost desperately since my divorce. I need my Church and my Church family. I need to go where I am known and with the people that I know. I don't want our Church to be split over any reason. I don't want to feel like I have to find a new Church at this point in my life. I want our Church to prosper for a lot of reasons - not just for me. The actions of this man is causing a split in our Church.
My dear sister-in-Christ … I cannot pretend to know what you are going through, either with the effects of your divorce, or with how your church is helping you cope with the situation. But being the wise woman that you are, you recognize your need for the body of Christ to minister to you. May I offer that perhaps it is best for you to focus on your healing process. Surround yourself with people in your Church that you trust. If you can, present to Christ some of the prayers that I have suggested, or something similar to them. Bring together a group of women who are prayer warriors to do both with you. And perhaps, in your healing, you might even find an opportunity to exert your right to “preach” the Gospel to your younger sisters in the church.
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you always.
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RE: What are the qualifications to be a Preacher? - 8/9/2008 11:53:57 PM
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JCMK
Posts: 119
Joined: 12/30/2007
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Thank you, Theophile2, for you thoughtful answer. I can tell that you put a lot of study into it and I appreciate it.
I do not feel like my divorce has any effect on my feelings or beliefs concerning this matter as I have always believed this way. This is how my 85-year-old Dad taught me. And since I have studied the Bible thoroughly on this matter, I believe he is right.
The Pastor allows the man to speak behind the pulpit as I believe that he doesn't know what he needs to know about the man. I'm not going to tell him. One reason is because I am a woman. Another reason is because it would hurt other innocent people and reveal things that shouldn't be revealed - not by me anyway.
So unless God moves on our Pastor's heart, this man will be allowed to talk in our services. He does this mostly on Wednesdays, so I will just not attend then. It is rude, and reflects badly on me, if I get up and leave, so it is better if I just don't go.
I am not qualified to teach the younger woman since I am divorced now. How could I tell them how to keep their husbands happy when I obviously didn't do a good job at it myself? I am not a good example to anyone. I couldn't even give advice on how to survive a devistating divorce, as I am not doing so well at that myself. I can't tell others how to trust God and cast your cares upon the Lord because I haven't managed to figure out how to do that either. I feel that I am hanging on by a thread. That is not a good example to anyone. I have failed totally and am now disqualified from teaching or leading in our church even if I wanted to.
All that has nothing to do with this OP. I am just a concerned Christian and member of my church. And I was just seeking answers to this complicated and sensitive issue.
Thank you for your time and care.
Blessings!
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RE: What are the qualifications to be a Preacher? - 8/10/2008 12:25:16 AM
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ironsharpensiron
Posts: 147
Joined: 4/21/2006
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
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quote:
The Pastor allows the man to speak behind the pulpit as I believe that he doesn't know what he needs to know about the man. I'm not going to tell him. One reason is because I am a woman. Another reason is because it would hurt other innocent people and reveal things that shouldn't be revealed - not by me anyway.
So unless God moves on our Pastor's heart, this man will be allowed to talk in our services. He does this mostly on Wednesdays, so I will just not attend then. It is rude, and reflects badly on me, if I get up and leave, so it is better if I just don't go.
I am not qualified to teach the younger woman since I am divorced now. How could I tell them how to keep their husbands happy when I obviously didn't do a good job at it myself? I am not a good example to anyone. I couldn't even give advice on how to survive a devistating divorce, as I am not doing so well at that myself. I can't tell others how to trust God and cast your cares upon the Lord because I haven't managed to figure out how to do that either. I feel that I am hanging on by a thread. That is not a good example to anyone. I have failed totally and am now disqualified from teaching or leading in our church even if I wanted to.
I wasn't planning on posting again, although I have to say, in love, that you really sound as if you are still in deep hurt. You sound so dejected and negative about yourself, and about how the Lord looks at you. I really feel you need some good encouraging and positive people in your life.
Do you not realize how mightily you can be used for the Lord!? You have gone through, and still are going through, a traumatic journey, and one that, when you are finally past and healed from, will enable you to minister to many women that are in the position you are in now. You believe you are a failure, and that God cast's failures aside...well let me enlighten you, my sister, some of the best instruments God uses for His glory are broken people who have gone through hell, but picked themselves up, grabbed onto the Lord, and rose above to be used mightily!
Do not allow anyone to tell you that you are not qualified. Do not allow any legalism to take the blessings God has in store for you away.
You are a child of the Lord God Most High! So put your head up, stand up straight and tall, and proclaim it from the mountaintops.
I will be praying for you, and for your full healing, and future ministry to women.
On topic...I do not believe the pastor is out of the loop. Pastor's know things, know their congregation. He may even be counseling this man for all we know, and helping him to become the man of God he needs to be.
matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: What are the qualifications to be a Preacher? - 8/10/2008 12:39:01 AM
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ironsharpensiron
Posts: 147
Joined: 4/21/2006
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
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As I was studying the Word, and some of the scriptures sveral have posted~~specifically the Timothy one where it reads 'one woman man.'~ it came to me that it really isn't specifically speaking about divorce. Of course one could read between the lines on that depending on what message you want it to say, but it really isn't specific. You can look at it by what it means at face value; having one wife...at a time. Polygamy comes to mind. Could that be the meaning to the scripture..? Were people in that part of the world marrying several women at the time..? Was it a cultural thing at the time..? Or can it be refering to the man's conduct toward his wife during the time of his being called into deaconship as Paul explains in Ephesians 5..?
Having one wife and working in ministry is difficult enough...maybe Paul was forewarning men that by having more than one wife would take him more and more away from God's ministry..? 
matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: What are the qualifications to be a Preacher? - 8/10/2008 1:58:22 AM
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Focusing
Posts: 6019
Status: offline
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quote:
Do you not realize how mightily you can be used for the Lord!? You have gone through, and still are going through, a traumatic journey, and one that, when you are finally past and healed from, will enable you to minister to many women that are in the position you are in now. You believe you are a failure, and that God cast's failures aside...well let me enlighten you, my sister, some of the best instruments God uses for His glory are broken people who have gone through hell, but picked themselves up, grabbed onto the Lord, and rose above to be used mightily!
JCMK, I have been thinking over this thread and your situation. I was happy to come in here and see what ironsharpensiron posted, and I agree with him. While we oftentimes are hit with situations in life that we would not have chosen for ourselves, the Lord uses those situations for His glory ... if we allow Him to.
This is one of my favorite verses Yet those who wait for the Lord will gain new strength; they will mount up with wings like eagles, they will run and not get tired, they will walk and not become weary. Isaiah 40:31
I picture you in this verse ... gaining new strength through the Lord ... and being there to help other women once you have reached the other side of healing. It's a beautiful picture! 
But, back to the discussion at hand. Why can you not speak with the pastor about this man? If it's bothering you so much, and about half the congregation, who will speak with the pastor to let him know the turmoil going on? Then again, he may very well be aware of the situation. There could very well be discussions going on behind the scenes that nobody is privy to. However, if you are friends with the pastor and his wife, as you stated, for 40+ years, why in the world would you feel uncomfortable talking to him about it? Is it better to allow murmuring to go on and not address it because you are a woman and don't feel it's your place to say anything?
Speaking with the pastor in confidence about this is a far cry from preaching on the pulpit ...
The pastor is the shepherd of his flock, and he cares about you. I'm sure you are well aware that he cares not only about you and your spiritual well being, but the spiritual well being of the remainder of the congregation.
If you feel this man is doing wrong through his sin, have you considered this scripture:
If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17
Is this man aware that there are so many in the congregation who have taken issue with his speaking and teaching from the pulpit? If he is not aware, and the pastor is not aware, the situation will not be rectified. I am not aware of any Bible versus stating that you, as a woman, cannot speak up in private about an issue.
_____________________________
There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven
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