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RE: Grocery Bag Green Fees & Ban on Styrofoam - 8/4/2008 12:01:13 AM
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CCCdnt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapetos
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
What do you think of the idea?
I think it is an awful idea. We usually grocery shop twice a month and come away with a lot of groceries. We are already on a tight budget as it is. If a store in our area started doing this, all it would do is cause us to find a store that did not charge for their plastic bags (if there was one hopefully).
But there's nothing to stop you taking bags that you've already used back with you when you go shopping is there ~ a point that was also raised in the OP.
Supporting and providing for my family comes first...which means the environment comes second. I am all for keeping the earth clean and not wasting resources, as long as it does not cause people severe financial trouble. I would consider taking bags we already have or even paying for bags, if it would some how save us money. If, for example, the stores were able to cut back on their prices where, even after accounting for the price of the bags, it would mean savings, then that would be okay.
Edited for spelling.
< Message edited by CCCdnt -- 8/5/2008 9:51:56 AM >
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RE: Grocery Bag Green Fees & Ban on Styrofoam - 8/4/2008 12:22:11 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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I usually nest several of my bags inside another bag, so I just grab a full one. I have not yet gone in with fewer bags than I needed. Knowing one's grocery-buying habits is fairly easy. I also stashed some in my husband's van.
The main problem I have is remembering to get them from the trunk, but I'm getting better at it.
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RE: Grocery Bag Green Fees & Ban on Styrofoam - 8/4/2008 4:52:54 PM
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agapetos
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quote:
Then what do you suggest I pick up my dog's messes with? Either way some sort of plastic is going to end up in the garbage can. Now if the dog would keep her messes to my yard it wouldn't be so bad, but there are times when we are out walking OR to dog gets over to the neighbor's yard and well makes a mess. And if you think about it - the mark up on products pays for the grocer to buy the plastic and paper bags, so in a round about way I AM paying for them. It may help a bit to reduce the plastic problem IF the people bagging groceries would learn how to bag groceries. The problem is that the supermarket is putting the cost onto every product ~ which means that I pay for someone else to use bags so they don't have to buy them to pick up their dog's messes.
Added to which, do you seriously need to use a carrier bag each time you take your dog for a walk? I can get a couple of hundred sandwich bags for £1 (around $2) that would be the right size for picking up dog messes.
quote:
Even at $1 a bag - for folks like me with large families and always lots of groceries, and strict budgets - $20 or $30 is a big chunk of our grocery budgets. And it's a lot of money for people like me, who are single and on a budget. I have already said that I don't expect anyone to go out and buy lots of reuseable bags, but suggested buying one every now and again.
As to not knowing how many bags your going to use ~ well again, perhaps you buy more than you expected, well fine, use the free ones ~ just use reuseable ones (or used free ones again) too.
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RE: Grocery Bag Green Fees & Ban on Styrofoam - 8/4/2008 5:00:51 PM
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garsyt
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Maybe what the stores should do is to give a DISCOUNT to those that are using their own bags. Would that solve some of the problems? It might convince me to buy more reusables.
Garsy
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RE: Grocery Bag Green Fees & Ban on Styrofoam - 8/4/2008 5:06:01 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2104
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jazzact13
If a grocery store or chain wanted in institute such a fee, they should be free to do so (and free to watch their customers shop elsewhere).
For the goverment to institute such a thing is going too far. It is simply another example of government intrusion.
Big Brother isn't just knocking at the door, and he's got more then just his foot in it. He's got his shoulder against it and is pushing vigorously.
Actually, I think this would be one of those cases where governments SHOULD intervene.
Conceptually, economies work best when the people who get the benefit of something are also the same ones who bear the cost. In this case, due to the low weight and "aeronautic ability" of this kind of trash, there is a definite cost to the public that's associated with these conveniences. Currently, the person who gets the benefit is not the one that has to pay the cost - hence we use more of these items than we should. This is EXACTLY the type of problem that governments are supposed to get involved in. Only the government is in a position to ensure that the beneficiaries of something are also the cost-bearers. Assessing some user fee that is proportional to the social cost of the item in question is a prudent and economically sound means of addressing the problem.
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RE: Grocery Bag Green Fees & Ban on Styrofoam - 8/4/2008 5:11:54 PM
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agapetos
Posts: 5611
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quote:
ORIGINAL: garsyt
Maybe what the stores should do is to give a DISCOUNT to those that are using their own bags. Would that solve some of the problems? It might convince me to buy more reusables.
Garsy
Or keep the prices lower by not supplying bags. There are a few chain supermarkets in my area. One offers no incentive, one offers loyalty points (so giving a discount when you've collected enough) and I'm not sure about the other two ~ I don't shop there often enough to notice (when I do go to those stores, it's specifically to go to them and nowhere else so I always have bags.
Out of interest ~ what would you use to pick dog messes up with if your supermarket stopped supplying free bags or gave you a discount for reusing bags.
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RE: Grocery Bag Green Fees & Ban on Styrofoam - 8/4/2008 6:23:39 PM
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garsyt
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I don't know. Thankfully, I haven't had to think about that yet. Of course you could also look at the mark up on the foods you buy going to pay for things like electricity, or advertising, or refrigeration or to pay the clerk or stock boy or whatever. We all like those things at the grocery store too.
I'm thinking that if the stores gave a certain percentage off for each reusable bag used, I'd likely use LESS in the way of plastic. I'm not opposed to the use of reusable bags, but I also understand those that love the convenience of of being able to reuse the plastic bags for other needs. We are all trying save money these days and whenever I can repurpose ANY item that comes into my home I do! I would love to see the baggers at the grocery store learn to put more then just a couple things in each bag too.
What I'd like to see more of is the promotion of recycling made available to more and more people. To have the recycling truck visit MY town from the neighboring big city would cost me an extra $100 a year! If they come here for just one persons recycling or 80 peoples recycling it is $100 per household. IF recycling in my little town were made more affordable and practical and accessible - that alone would eliminate A LOT of garbage from entering landfills here.
I guess I'm also frustrated that the government thinks this is an issue that needs immediate attention but can't seem to get their act together on so many other issues.
Blessings,
Garsy
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RE: Grocery Bag Green Fees & Ban on Styrofoam - 8/4/2008 6:42:09 PM
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agapetos
Posts: 5611
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: This side of the lil duck pond!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
quote:
ORIGINAL: agapetos
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
What do you think of the idea?
I think it is an awful idea. We usually grocery shop twice a month and come away with a lot of groceries. We are already on a tight budget as it is. If a store in our area started doing this, all it would do is cause us to find a store that did not charge for their plastic bags (if there was one hopefully).
But there's nothing to stop you taking bags that you've already used back with you when you go shopping is there ~ a point that was also raised in the OP.
Supporting and providing for my family comes first...which means the environment comes second. I am all for keeping the earth clean and not wasting resources, as long as it does not cause people severe financial trouble. I would consider taking bags we already have or even paying for bags, if it would some how save us money. If, for example, the stores were able to cut back on their prices where, ever after accounting for the price of the bags, it would mean savings, then that would be okay.
I'm a little confused by your post. You say that supporting and providing for your family comes first. I accept and agree with that. Whether we shop for 1 person or 20, we need to support and provide first. I have no arguement with that. You say that you're keen to not waste resources etc ~ but then you seem to turn it around and say you're not going to consider reusing bags or buying them because supermarkets won't cut back on their prices.
_____________________________
Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit.
Wisdom is not using them in fruit salads!
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RE: Grocery Bag Green Fees & Ban on Styrofoam - 8/4/2008 11:14:39 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2469
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From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
Only the government is in a position to ensure that the beneficiaries of something are also the cost-bearers
the government can only ensure they will muck up the works
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RE: Grocery Bag Green Fees & Ban on Styrofoam - 8/5/2008 8:33:00 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 640
Joined: 1/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapetos
quote:
And if you think about it - the mark up on products pays for the grocer to buy the plastic and paper bags, so in a round about way I AM paying for them. It may help a bit to reduce the plastic problem IF the people bagging groceries would learn how to bag groceries. The problem is that the supermarket is putting the cost onto every product ~ which means that I pay for someone else to use bags so they don't have to buy them to pick up their dog's messes.
Yeah but do you think the grocery store is going to lower their prices when or if everyone stops buying plastic bags? I doubt they would, so the cost is going to be being paid twice by most people, regardless of if they are avid recyclers or not I guess. It's about the money not the environment IMO.
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RE: Grocery Bag Green Fees & Ban on Styrofoam - 8/5/2008 10:00:39 AM
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CCCdnt
Posts: 354
Joined: 3/10/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapetos
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
quote:
ORIGINAL: agapetos
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
What do you think of the idea?
I think it is an awful idea. We usually grocery shop twice a month and come away with a lot of groceries. We are already on a tight budget as it is. If a store in our area started doing this, all it would do is cause us to find a store that did not charge for their plastic bags (if there was one hopefully).
But there's nothing to stop you taking bags that you've already used back with you when you go shopping is there ~ a point that was also raised in the OP.
Supporting and providing for my family comes first...which means the environment comes second. I am all for keeping the earth clean and not wasting resources, as long as it does not cause people severe financial trouble. I would consider taking bags we already have or even paying for bags, if it would some how save us money. If, for example, the stores were able to cut back on their prices where, ever after accounting for the price of the bags, it would mean savings, then that would be okay.
I'm a little confused by your post. You say that supporting and providing for your family comes first. I accept and agree with that. Whether we shop for 1 person or 20, we need to support and provide first. I have no arguement with that. You say that you're keen to not waste resources etc ~ but then you seem to turn it around and say you're not going to consider reusing bags or buying them because supermarkets won't cut back on their prices.
I just did not go into detail. We do reuse the plastic bags we take home - waste basket bags, bags to carry items in on long or short trips (such as snacks for the kids), take lunch to work...
My wife actually made a plastic bag holder we have hung in our kitchen closet. When the bags become dirty or get holes in them, then we dispose of them.
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RE: Grocery Bag Green Fees & Ban on Styrofoam - 8/6/2008 12:45:07 PM
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agapetos
Posts: 5611
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: This side of the lil duck pond!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: agapetos
quote:
And if you think about it - the mark up on products pays for the grocer to buy the plastic and paper bags, so in a round about way I AM paying for them. It may help a bit to reduce the plastic problem IF the people bagging groceries would learn how to bag groceries. The problem is that the supermarket is putting the cost onto every product ~ which means that I pay for someone else to use bags so they don't have to buy them to pick up their dog's messes.
Yeah but do you think the grocery store is going to lower their prices when or if everyone stops buying plastic bags? I doubt they would, so the cost is going to be being paid twice by most people, regardless of if they are avid recyclers or not I guess. It's about the money not the environment IMO.
Again, I know of a supermarket here that keeps costs down by various methods ~ one of which is not supplying free bags.
_____________________________
Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit.
Wisdom is not using them in fruit salads!
My blog
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RE: Grocery Bag Green Fees & Ban on Styrofoam - 8/6/2008 7:07:42 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 640
Joined: 1/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapetos
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: agapetos
quote:
And if you think about it - the mark up on products pays for the grocer to buy the plastic and paper bags, so in a round about way I AM paying for them. It may help a bit to reduce the plastic problem IF the people bagging groceries would learn how to bag groceries. The problem is that the supermarket is putting the cost onto every product ~ which means that I pay for someone else to use bags so they don't have to buy them to pick up their dog's messes.
Yeah but do you think the grocery store is going to lower their prices when or if everyone stops buying plastic bags? I doubt they would, so the cost is going to be being paid twice by most people, regardless of if they are avid recyclers or not I guess. It's about the money not the environment IMO.
Again, I know of a supermarket here that keeps costs down by various methods ~ one of which is not supplying free bags.
I also have those in my area. The "no free bags" is only a part of the lower costs. They also don't let you use a buggy for free or have anyone on hand to help you while you are shopping and also the quality of almost all food in the store is less than even a generic brand at other groceries.
But what I was talking about was the stores that already have bags and do not charge, except for the added cost on their products to account for it. I sincerely doubt you would see them lowering their current prices if they ever made it mandatory to now pay for your bags. The prices would remain the same.
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RE: Grocery Bag Green Fees & Ban on Styrofoam - 8/6/2008 10:44:52 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2104
Joined: 11/16/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
the government can only ensure they will muck up the works
True, but there are times when the market mucks itself up all on it's own. Like I mentioned above, this happens very often with issues like pollution where the polluter creates the burden but isn't the one that pays the cleanup. Polluters in this case will treat the environment like it's a free good with an unlimited supply, which it is not.
It also happens in game theory cases like the classic "prisoner's dilemma" problem. I know the environment will be better off if everyone doesn't drive a big gas guzzling SUV and smogging up my beloved mountain views. I however like my big red ugly Jeep-like thing, and the incremental environmental impact if I get rid of it will be negligible. It will only help the environment if EVERYONE gets rid of their big red ugly Jeep-like things. I know however that this will not happen.
Collectively, we'd all be better off if we quit driving them so much. Individually, though, any action I take to do so on my own is a drop in the bucket and worthless unless I know that most everyone else will do so as well. I know this will not happen, so as a result I will continue to drive Big Red.
In cases like this, the decision that is logical at the collective level is illogical at the individual level. For issues like this as well, it does make sense for a governmental body to incent individuals to make the collectively correct decision.
Sometimes have a government mucking things up in a slightly different way is actually an improvement.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Grocery Bag Green Fees & Ban on Styrofoam - 8/7/2008 4:26:11 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2469
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
Polluters in this case will treat the environment like it's a free good with an unlimited supply, which it is not.
take a trip to any former socialist state in the eastern block and you will see the loving care they gave their countryside.
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The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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