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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/26/2008 11:30:31 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 303
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Hi mushhead,
Thanks for sharing that. Some of it sounded like some of my own past trials! When you say "It felt right", and after reading your explanation of it, I think that we aren't that far from eye to eye there--that there is a certain resonance when we are persuaded by an idea, partly emotional, partly intellectual.
I see your point that it's too simple to say "All you have to do" regarding belief. It seems to me that it would need to "feel right" at least to some degree to kick start the whole process. What motivation would your wife have had to go through all of that if she wasn't persuaded of the truthfulness of her new faith, or of the falseness of Mormonism? It shows integrity on her part in sticking to what she believes to be true. (I'm confused though, who was threatening to divorce? It sounds like it was a nightmare and I hope the tensions have eased up.)
To be fair, that situation works in both directions. Mormons, Muslims, JWs, etc. have their own converts with similar stories. It's a shame people have to become pariahs in that way. Like your wife, I left Mormonism. I was a little bit of a pariah, but mostly I lucked out and with family and close friends things were surprisingly civil.
Some people seem so comfortable using a broad brush to judge the character of all those with differing beliefs. I saw it in Mormondom, and I see it here on this board. I don't buy it. I think there's a lot more to it than "People who love light will choose X, people who love darkness will choose not-X". In fact I find the idea absurdly naive.
One last thought (my posts can get long too...  ) -- I may not be persuaded by Christianity, or Mormonism, or Islam, but I know that many are, and I have to concede that their claim on "what is real" is as real for them as mine is for me. So even if it's hard for me to imagine believing it myself, I think I should respect them and assume their sincerity is the same as mine. And maybe they're the ones who got reality right!
Good night, have a good week.
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/26/2008 11:56:23 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 303
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Hi evry1needsgod,
Yeah, I read through that now-locked thread. He's kind of all over the place and a bit rude--I think you handled it gracefully.
Ironically, I do partially agree with him on one thing, and I'm loathe to admit it because I find Calvinism absolutely monstrous.
I can see ways in which our ability to make choices is related to what we believe, but ultimately I believe there are no guarantees and that there is a decidedly involuntary aspect to belief. I don't believe we choose to believe X; I believe we must choose to admit that belief to ourself, to embrace it, to act on it--not to mention we must choose to investigate, to test (thinking John 7:17 for example).
In fact, the closest thing I can see to a guarantee doesn't seem to support the idea that the "correct" theology will come out on top--that is, the high probability that a person will remain within, or very close to, the type of theology they were raised in. I know there are exceptions, and I'm one, but consider the predominance of Islam in Indonesia vs. the predominance of Christians in the US. To me it indicates the existence of forces beyond one's control. I don't know how else to explain it.
The choice to place faith in Christ is not available to someone who doesn't believe in Christ. This goes right back to what I've been saying. Why in the world would someone place faith in something that, to use mushhead's term, doesn't "feel right"? I know I'm not the only person who tried to believe something, would have liked to, but in the end... well my brain had other plans! I tell you what I will do though. I will choose life, in every way that I'm able.
g'night!
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/26/2008 4:59:00 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
Hi evry1needsgod,
Yeah, I read through that now-locked thread. He's kind of all over the place and a bit rude--I think you handled it gracefully.
Ironically, I do partially agree with him on one thing, and I'm loathe to admit it because I find Calvinism absolutely monstrous.
I can see ways in which our ability to make choices is related to what we believe, but ultimately I believe there are no guarantees and that there is a decidedly involuntary aspect to belief. I don't believe we choose to believe X; I believe we must choose to admit that belief to ourself, to embrace it, to act on it--not to mention we must choose to investigate, to test (thinking John 7:17 for example).
In fact, the closest thing I can see to a guarantee doesn't seem to support the idea that the "correct" theology will come out on top--that is, the high probability that a person will remain within, or very close to, the type of theology they were raised in. I know there are exceptions, and I'm one, but consider the predominance of Islam in Indonesia vs. the predominance of Christians in the US. To me it indicates the existence of forces beyond one's control. I don't know how else to explain it.
The choice to place faith in Christ is not available to someone who doesn't believe in Christ. This goes right back to what I've been saying. Why in the world would someone place faith in something that, to use mushhead's term, doesn't "feel right"? I know I'm not the only person who tried to believe something, would have liked to, but in the end... well my brain had other plans! I tell you what I will do though. I will choose life, in every way that I'm able.
g'night!
Well, let me just say one last thing, and I will be done. It is an absolute fact that there are absolutes. There is no relativity to truth. Truth is truth. You sound almost exactly the way I did just a couple years ago. Yes, people influence people. It is more likely for one to believe in Christ here in the US than it is in Asian countries, but what you must understand is that this does not change truth. Truth still abides, even through the sins of mankind. God has given you the opportunity to find truth. He has laid it out clearly in Scripture, and you personally have access to that. Don't worry about what other people think, or the tendencies of others. We all have a tendency to sin, but never does that negate our choice to trust in Jesus. Do not let post-modernism brainwash you into believing life is completely relative, and what is true for me is not true for you. Truth is truth, absolutes exists. It is your responsibility, given to you by God, to find and accept or reject that truth. We both are accountable, because we have both been given the truth. Please put your brain aside, and allow the Lord to speak to you. Until you realize the monstrous deficiency of your knowledge, and the awesome power of God, your life will never change. You will constantly battle wanting to believe something, but seemingly impossible to do so, unless you change. It is your choice, your eternal destination is something you choose. Make sure you know what the truth is, and not gamble your life on the outside change that you were an accident, and that life is completely relative and random.
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/27/2008 1:42:07 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 303
Joined: 4/8/2008
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I never said I believed truth is relative. In fact I think it's an odd concept. The human mind is not exactly the best "truth assesser"--what it is good at doing is believing. People believe all sorts of things, and no, that doesn't make all those things true, no matter how certain they are.
That goes for you, for me, for everyone. Of course you think what you believe is "the Truth", that's how belief works. For me, what follows from my position that there is a force influencing our beliefs that is outside our control, is that actually identifying the TRUTH -- "getting one's theology right" so to speak -- is much less relevant than you seem to believe. If a person born in Texas has a much better chance than a person born in Indonesia of believing "what actually IS", then wouldn't that make God a respecter of persons? Why send one soul into such greater odds than another? If you believe that God will not try a person beyond their ability to be tried, and if you saw the formation of belief the way I do, then you would understand why I say that. I just think the criteria would be something else.
I know we won't see eye to eye on this, but that's fine. I appreciate the discussion.
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/27/2008 1:53:45 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
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quote:
I never said I believed truth is relative.
Then I apologize. I asserted that after reading through your post. That's how it sounded to me, but I apparently was wrong, and for that I apologize. Thanks for the discussion, and I pray you will find truth, regardless to what circumstance you find yourself in. You personally have access to truth, and therefore YOU have no excuse. Don't worry about other people right now. Worry about yourself. Choose life my friend!
In Christ,
ZG
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/28/2008 11:04:22 AM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
Posts: 1671
Joined: 1/23/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
Ironically, I do partially agree with him on one thing, and I'm loathe to admit it because I find Calvinism absolutely monstrous.
good morning Abraxas.. i do want to comment.. im a calvinist christian and my salvation and the God i serve is not monstrous. maybe some peopel gave you that impression,, but the only thing i can say is, you have to really be a calvinist to be able to say its not monstrous. its really a beautiful thing. when i was learning this last year, i had some things that were hard to grasp, but finally God made sense to me. you have to walk a mile in my shoes to find out calvinism is not what you think in that negative way.
i'm saying that until you understand the concepts, it will APPEAR to be that way, but once you cross over and understand it, God is the most loving, merciful, gracious God that there is, and i have no right to judge Him whether he is "fair' in my human finite mind"
_____________________________
I'm just one of those Calvinistic robots for the Lord :)
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/29/2008 6:50:17 AM
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Thessa
Posts: 811
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
God sends no one to hell, the individual chooses that path;
(Joh 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(Joh 3:17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(Joh 3:18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(Joh 3:19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Thanks
RC
I totally agree.
They do send themselves there.
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/29/2008 7:01:35 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 303
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It's interesting that you say that, IMA_CHRISTIAN, because just the other day I was wondering what it would be like to be able to see the world through another person's eyes--to experience the world exactly as they do. I was wondering what it would be like to actually experience a Muslim's belief, or a Christian's, in all their sincerity. To actually have it make perfect sense. I think it would be a mind-blowing experience.
So I think you're on to something, that if I could "walk a mile in your shoes", your belief would make sense to me. If you could walk a mile in mine, my views would make sense to you too. Of course it's not a possibility because that mile walk actually spans our lifetime.
That's really what I was getting at here--that all that goes into a person's make-up is so unique and so personal, that while it may be hard for us to imagine it, something that doesn't make any sense at all to one person can make perfect sense to someone else. And the beliefs that we have--our "theory of reality" are born out of that make-up.
I'm guessing you wouldn't want to swap your beliefs for mine--and you know what, I wouldn't want to swap for yours!! But if they were swapped, and suddenly (or even gradually) mine made sense to you and yours made sense to me, something tells me we would feel as though we "saw the light" and wouldn't want to switch back.
It's all interesting stuff to me. Safe weekend all.
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/29/2008 7:03:31 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 303
Joined: 4/8/2008
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quote:
They do send themselves there.
Well then I for one plan on not going there.
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 9/26/2008 1:06:54 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
Posts: 1671
Joined: 1/23/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
It's interesting that you say that, IMA_CHRISTIAN, because just the other day I was wondering what it would be like to be able to see the world through another person's eyes--to experience the world exactly as they do. I was wondering what it would be like to actually experience a Muslim's belief, or a Christian's, in all their sincerity. To actually have it make perfect sense. I think it would be a mind-blowing experience.
So I think you're on to something, that if I could "walk a mile in your shoes", your belief would make sense to me. If you could walk a mile in mine, my views would make sense to you too. Of course it's not a possibility because that mile walk actually spans our lifetime.
That's really what I was getting at here--that all that goes into a person's make-up is so unique and so personal, that while it may be hard for us to imagine it, something that doesn't make any sense at all to one person can make perfect sense to someone else. And the beliefs that we have--our "theory of reality" are born out of that make-up.
I'm guessing you wouldn't want to swap your beliefs for mine--and you know what, I wouldn't want to swap for yours!! But if they were swapped, and suddenly (or even gradually) mine made sense to you and yours made sense to me, something tells me we would feel as though we "saw the light" and wouldn't want to switch back.
It's all interesting stuff to me. Safe weekend all.
Hi - yes you have the understanding of what i was trying to say. Anything we can believe about God has to be revealed to us by God Himself. When it happens, its like a light bulb gets turned on all of a sudden, that means i could spend 4 hours talking with you and you might not 'get it" but one second the Lord God reveals it, thats a powerful thing indeed.
God is going to reveal truth, and not lie. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life". that means Muhammed, Buddha and the Pope is not the way,, only Jesus is. He must reveal that truth to you. He will not reveal that Buddha is the way. He will not reveal that any other god is the way, but he will point to Jesus. always.
_____________________________
I'm just one of those Calvinistic robots for the Lord :)
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 9/26/2008 1:21:08 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1974
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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I tell you what abraxas...if you were 20 years old, the most beautiful person in the world, rich and the most talented...I wouldn't switch places with you.
The reason is...I know my place with God and I know my future in His kingdom. This life and all it offers is only a heart beat in eternity. It means nothing other than our responsibility to accept Christ and follow Him.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 9/29/2008 1:34:16 AM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 557
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
Hi evry1needsgod,
Yeah, I read through that now-locked thread. He's kind of all over the place and a bit rude--I think you handled it gracefully.
Ironically, I do partially agree with him on one thing, and I'm loathe to admit it because I find Calvinism absolutely monstrous.
I can see ways in which our ability to make choices is related to what we believe, but ultimately I believe there are no guarantees and that there is a decidedly involuntary aspect to belief. I don't believe we choose to believe X; I believe we must choose to admit that belief to ourself, to embrace it, to act on it--not to mention we must choose to investigate, to test (thinking John 7:17 for example).
In fact, the closest thing I can see to a guarantee doesn't seem to support the idea that the "correct" theology will come out on top--that is, the high probability that a person will remain within, or very close to, the type of theology they were raised in. I know there are exceptions, and I'm one, but consider the predominance of Islam in Indonesia vs. the predominance of Christians in the US. To me it indicates the existence of forces beyond one's control. I don't know how else to explain it.
The choice to place faith in Christ is not available to someone who doesn't believe in Christ. This goes right back to what I've been saying. Why in the world would someone place faith in something that, to use mushhead's term, doesn't "feel right"? I know I'm not the only person who tried to believe something, would have liked to, but in the end... well my brain had other plans! I tell you what I will do though. I will choose life, in every way that I'm able.
g'night!
Well the Gospel is known to be offensive,It's funny how people claim to love Martin Luther,Edwards,Spurgeon and even sso forth but they deny their(and the bible's) teachings..
_____________________________
Christ saved you from the wrath of an almighty God. Hell is just a revelation of that. I always tell people this. God saved you from Himself, God saved you for Himself and God saved you by Himself."
Paul Washer
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 9/29/2008 1:44:33 PM
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abraxas
Posts: 303
Joined: 4/8/2008
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Hi Bob,
Boy were you wrong on all counts!  heh! Hey good for you and your convictions. I wouldn't want to trade lives with him either! Or with you, for that matter!
IMA_CHRISTIAN, I suppose we can all play the "you just don't get it" card, but what I've been trying to express here is that there's much more to it than that. Thinking more on an earlier idea, I think it would be very unpleasant to get the experience of another's views, if they were different enough from your own--those views would come with a whole set of assumptions that would clash with your own. It would be ... I don't know, schizophrenic maybe, to force the brain to believe two conflicting things simultaneously. Imagine if you, with your convictions, were also suddenly "believing" a Buddhist's beliefs as though they were your own. It's too risky, so I advise against it. 
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