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robert91 -> is america christian (7/22/2008 11:38:14 PM)

what do you guys think, is america a christian nation in terms of numbers, or legally or historically or in any other way you can think of? and if its not christian, should america be?



ChiefWannahakaloogie -> RE: is america christian (7/23/2008 12:06:56 AM)

well of course america should be christian. i dont know any numbers, but i'd say the christian population is probably well out numbered.



DreadPirateRandy -> RE: is america christian (7/23/2008 12:25:08 AM)

America was founded on Godly beliefs and principles. Most of our Founding Fathers were associated with religion, or at least deists.

Historically, America was a nation founded on moral beliefs that Christianity supports.

Numerically, the question is unanswerable. I could say, "Yes, I am a Christian", but if I don't put meaning to those words with my actions, they're merely words. Many people will tell you, "Yes, I am a Christian", and when you ask them why they say, "Because I'm good.". Salvation isn't an issue of doing good deeds, that's the most frequent confusion with accepting Christanity. Salvation is an issue with repentance, not because one is good. No one is good, no, not even one.

But mathematically, there is 6.5 Billion (give or take x amount) people in the entire world. Most sources will say that the world is 1/3 Christian, so thats 2.1 billion Christians worldview, supposedly. Ultimately, God only knows those which call Him Father.


America cannot be a Christian nation by law. That would being forcing people to believe in something they would never believe in anyways. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights states in Article 18 that:

  • Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.


America is no longer a Christian nation. It's not hard to see once you begin to look around. Homosexual marriages and abortions being instituted by law, the decreasing of our economy by lack of a foundable moral belief, such as the beliefs this nation was founded on. Such things were a prophecy foretold in the Bible.


    [3]As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"
    [4] Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you.
    [5] For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ' and will deceive many.
    [6] You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
    [7] Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
    [8] All these are the beginning of birth pains.
    [9] Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
    [10] At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
    [11] and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
    [12] Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
    [13] but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
    [14] And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.



I mentioned deists in the opening statement of my post. I looked at the definition and it says, "a person that believes God created the universe and then abandoned it."

I find it ironical. People believe God abandoned the universe, except in actuality, we abandoned Him. We forsake the morality of this nation that was founded upon Him and look of what has become of it, exactly what has been foretold.



_MavericK_ -> RE: is america christian (7/23/2008 11:11:16 AM)

no need for me to add to my bro's statement cuz he covered it.



PrincessButtercup -> RE: is america christian (7/23/2008 12:11:32 PM)

Yep, Randy's got it again. I totally agree.

quote:

I find it ironical. People believe God abandoned the universe, except in actuality, we abandoned Him. We forsake the morality of this nation that was founded upon Him and look of what has become of it, exactly what has been foretold.

Deepness. Never thought of it that way before.



robert91 -> RE: is america christian (7/23/2008 6:41:13 PM)

to grapeape:
hey
so can i ask you if you agree on the issue of whether to allow the display of ten commandments on public buildings



Konstantinos -> RE: is america christian (7/24/2008 12:00:26 AM)

since when could any country be "christian"?

heck ive even heard of christian diets on this site.



vcjesusfreak -> RE: is america christian (7/24/2008 11:03:40 PM)

America is not a christian nation, if it were the schools would at least teach creation along with evolution. Really we aren't even as tolerant as we try to believe since America is more of an Atheist nation where we shut out all beliefs that have to do with any God



Real_Solitude -> RE: is america christian (7/27/2008 7:25:59 AM)

[quote=GrapeApe]
I find it ironical. People believe God abandoned the universe, except in actuality, we abandoned Him. We forsake the morality of this nation that was founded upon Him and look of what has become of it, exactly what has been foretold.
quote:



I find your final sentence a bit ironic. The Columbus enslaved the indigenous populations that he found when he first landed in the new land. He also forcefully converted them. This isn't to mention the devastating disease that the 'easterners' brought to America.
Many of the founding fathers, and quite a number of early Americans in general, owned other human beings as chattel.
One of the leaders of our nation when it was divided by civil war, Nathan Bedford Forests, went on to found the KKK.
Women weren't allowed to vote until 1920. That's 140 years of pure American degradation of one half of our species. Not to mention the years before the Declaration.
I don't think I need to go on.

People are judged by the morality of their time, not the morality of the current age. If we were to judge the founding fathers by today's standards, we would find them extremely lacking.
Our nation is more moral, by todays standards, than any given nation that existed two hundred or more years ago. Today, in America, more people have equality and freedom than ever before. How is that a bad thing?

quote:

ORIGINAL: vcjesusfreak
America is not a christian nation, if it were the schools would at least teach creation along with evolution.


[Tone = nonhositle]
Why? Belief in the god of the Bible does not preclude acceptance of evolutionary theory. If the evidence points towards evolutionary theory being true then evolution would continue to be the sole scientific theory taught. Creation might be taught in some sort of Bible study class, if we were a religious nation, but probably not in a science class.



PrincessButtercup -> RE: is america christian (7/27/2008 8:42:36 AM)

quote:

Our nation is more moral, by todays standards, than any given nation that existed two hundred or more years ago. Today, in America, more people have equality and freedom than ever before.

Equality and freedom isn't the same as morals.



DreadPirateRandy -> RE: is america christian (7/27/2008 10:33:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: robert91

hey
so can i ask you if you agree on the issue of whether to allow the display of ten commandments on public buildings


Issue? Like the same issues that resent public prayer and the name of God mentioned in the Pledge of Allegiance or just in generality?

These issues will continue to exist because the morality of our nation is depraved. Again, it doesn't take one with perfect vision to see it for yourself.



DreadPirateRandy -> RE: is america christian (7/27/2008 10:45:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Konstantinos

since when could any country be "christian"?


I could build a city and stamp "Christian" on the welcome sign. Anyone who entered could see by that label, the town was "Christian".

But a word is nothing without definition or meaning. Anything can be labelled "Christian", but without "following the teachings or manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus Christ" as the definition, it's merely a word.

It's not about the label, it's about the meaning. Likewise, it's not about the numerical statistics of "how many Christians are there?", but rather, "how many people know Jesus Christ and call Him Lord?"

quote:

heck ive even heard of christian diets on this site.


Instead of eating two cans of tuna a day, you eat fish all week. Bread and the occasional wine with every other meal.



DreadPirateRandy -> RE: is america christian (7/27/2008 10:59:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vcjesusfreak

America is not a christian nation, if it were the schools would at least teach creation along with evolution.


Under no circumstances will public schools consider creation as a legitimate thought. Even if this was nation was remotely Christian, the field of science will never view creation as a rational source or origin for life.

Not even in a million years. Oh wait! We've already been through that! My bad. [8|]

quote:

America is more of an Atheist nation where we shut out all beliefs that have to do with any God


They most certainly serve a god: themselves.



DreadPirateRandy -> RE: is america christian (7/27/2008 11:10:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real_Solitude

Today, in America, more people have equality and freedom than ever before. How is that a bad thing?


That freedom appears more as slavery than actual liberation. One isn't truly "free" unless they accept freedom. I don't see a nation that has accepted Jesus Christ, the only true definition of freedom.



whisper -> RE: is america christian (7/28/2008 4:42:06 AM)

It's an interesting question (as a disclaimer, I'm not an American - so don't count me as a "vote" here).

I don't know if I'd want the actions of my nation associated with my Christ. Democracy and theocracy don't really seem to go hand-in-hand, and no state could represent Christ adequately. Some might argue that the Church also doesn't do Christ justice, but somehow I feel more comfortable with my faith being more personal and less state-represented. Not all Muslims are violent and hateful, not all Christians are nationalists and patriots, not all Israelites are Jews and not all Jews are Israelites, etc. Plus - Christian Faith accepts Jesus as Messiah and Lord and God and rejects all others. This is my personal belief, yes, but I would not want my country asserting this, simply because I wouldn't want my country to start defining Christ in policies and procedures and justifying its collective actions in the name of God. I will not have the name of Jesus sullied. I also would hate to have the blanket label of "Christian" thrown on every citizen, giving some a bad picture of Christians, and others a false sense of security in claiming by name only the state religion.

That said, I believe that the principles of Christianity are very compatible (if not perfect) for guiding matters of state, and I'm glad that many many countries have been founded on such principles.



Real_Solitude -> RE: is america christian (7/28/2008 9:39:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mandicute
Equality and freedom isn't the same as morals.


How are equality and freedom not morally good?
It may be presumptuous, but I believe that we can all agree that slavery is immoral, and that discrimination based on race/gender is immoral.
If this is true, then everyone agreeing that slavery is wrong and that equality is good is on higher moral ground than people thinking slavery is okay and that some people should be raised above others based on circumstance of birth.


quote:

ORIGINAL: GrapeApe
Issue? Like the same issues that resent public prayer and the name of God mentioned in the Pledge of Allegiance or just in generality?

These issues will continue to exist because the morality of our nation is depraved. Again, it doesn't take one with perfect vision to see it for yourself.


Or is it because we, as a nation, recognize that different people follow different religions?
While the first amendment is relevant here, I feel a quote from the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom would be more suited of the attitude of our founding fathers, and of the nation.
"...no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever..."

Putting the words "under God" in the pledge violates this ideal by having The State raise one religion above others. Public displays of a single religion in government buildings violates the same spirit. (Not that Christians have a lot to complain about in this respect. The Ten commandments and other religions iconography is everywhere in D.C.)
How would you feel if they replaced "under God," with "under Vishnu?" Or if they engraved the eightfold path onto the doors of the Supreme Court?

The State does not exist to sanction or tear down religions. The State is not a religious institution, and nor should it be. The founding fathers were very clear on this, and were quite clear as to why this should be.
If our government ever officially sanctioned one religion over all others, I would leave. I would leave because it would mean that American have become corrupt and distorted from her origins and purpose. This nation was not founded to be a Christian nation. It was founded to be a nation where all men (and now all people) have equal opportunity.



PrincessButtercup -> RE: is america christian (7/28/2008 1:16:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real_Solitude

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mandicute
Equality and freedom isn't the same as morals.


How are equality and freedom not morally good?

Equality and freedom is a great thing and I am thankful for it. But I would never call America as a whole a moral nation because those things aren't the only things that matter. Equality and freedom don't make up for the fact that we allow the sacrifice of our children to the god of convenience.

Can you honestly look around you at all the increasing crime and hatred and say that we're more moral than ever before?



Real_Solitude -> RE: is america christian (7/29/2008 9:27:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mandicute
Can you honestly look around you at all the increasing crime and hatred and say that we're more moral than ever before?


Violent crimes in the U.S. are lower than ever. (Link)

I'm too lazy to look up rates for non-violent crimes, but I'd say they follow the same basic downward trend.
One reason for this is probably that our deterrent systems have become better. There are more cameras and IR detectors than ever before, making it harder to commit crimes without being caught. This doesn't comment that people are better, but simply that less crime is going on.
This is why I used values based on social issues as my focal point.
To me, a nation that allows equality is more moral than one that does not. One than has abandoned capital punishment is more moral than one that has not. One that donates to charity is more moral than one that does not. These things (in a democracy) are based on the will of the people. Things only change as the will of the people changes. If the laws regarding human rights have changed, this indicates that the majority has had a moral shift. If the shift is positive, then the morality of that nation can be said to have increased.

There seems to be a prevalent negative attitude about the state of the world in all generations. Each believes that the world is falling apart around their ears, no matter how good things are compared to previous generations. This can be seen in the constant predictions of the end times that have been proclaimed by each and every generation that has come before us. For whatever reason, people tend to look at things in a negative light.
However, this does not usually match reality. There would have been justification for such attitudes back in the dark ages, but we've had a general increase in standards of living since those times ended. Things are better, in general, than they have ever been. More people have longer, healthier lives than ever before. It would be nice to see people recognize this ever once in awhile.



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