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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 7:59:26 AM
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CoeurdeLeon_
Posts: 9469
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
I can tell you this, the building itself is not the problem for me. It's what the building represents. I would feel this way if church were being held in a gym, and they wanting to have a live it up kind of night there too. ANYWHERE, people would gather to pray, fellowship, worship, teach and preach, would I find the notion of a secular jam session (with alcohol) and call it a ministry , I would have this same reaction.
I see in these responses the desensitization of the holiness of God. The awesome Almighty has been brought to level of humanness that says come as you are. I don't not see the humility of sinners, crying out to their God. I don't see the fear of the Lord in many of these responses. This is scary to me. The enemy has done a wonderful job of twisting and distorting His holiness.
I don't think the presence of alcohol is going to lead anyone closer to Christ than allowing for a joint to be present would either. Based on your logic, this too would be acceptable. And it has nothing to do with legality. So what's next, homosexual gatherings, speed balls. It's ok, God doesn't really expect any kind of character from his people. He really wants us to blend in because that's how we really reach people. He doesn't expect accountability or responsibility from His people. We are free after all and forgiven, right? 
It was the people who held themselves apart and "protected" God's holiness and were 'holier than thou' that Jesus condemned.
I don't know what you're talking about when you say "have a live it up kind of night". There is no "we can do anything we want because God forgives us" in any of my posts. I've been talking about a specific outreach that you've been using emotions and emotionally charged words to tell me is of the devil. And I've been trying to get you to think it through and see that just because you don't like something your brother is doing, that doesn't make it sin.
What is that saying? "Christians.....the only army that shoots it's own"
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
10.13.08
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 8:09:11 AM
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KatMack
Posts: 1048
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Along the Canopy Roads
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Deliveredarling, is this taking place at the church that you stated earlier you've left? I'm really beginning to question your motives in starting this post. It seems to me that you have grudge. You came on here with incomplete information. You still seem to have incomplete information and are continuing to run with it. You've never addressed what this man's purpose and mission is in holding this session (in fact you went to so far as to infer it was all because he wasn't getting enough attention at the bar). You've continued to harp on the alcohol factor even though you've stated it's no longer part of the equation.
Now, if we've shifted to a purely hypothetical, ignore my first paragraph, but please let us know so we can stop referring to the specific situation in the OP.
--Kat
_____________________________
<-- My sweet blessings.
"God will do what God will do. What I'm responsible for is to believe he's all he says he is and obey what he tells me to do. " -magdaleine
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 8:10:49 AM
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CoeurdeLeon_
Posts: 9469
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
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For the record, I'm not arguing for booze in church.
I'm arguing against using crazy talk like this to tell me or anyone else that something is sin.
quote:
I don't think the presence of alcohol is going to lead anyone closer to Christ than allowing for a joint to be present would either. Based on your logic, this too would be acceptable. And it has nothing to do with legality. So what's next, homosexual gatherings, speed balls. It's ok, God doesn't really expect any kind of character from his people. He really wants us to blend in because that's how we really reach people. He doesn't expect accountability or responsibility from His people. We are free after all and forgiven, right?
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
10.13.08
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 8:33:57 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2001
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
Now, if we've shifted to a purely hypothetical, ignore my first paragraph, but please let us know so we can stop referring to the specific situation in the OP.
It's now hypothetical. The reason of this thread is the op. Why would I change that now, if that is the purpose.  You don't have to participate if you don't like it.
You can question my motives. I did leave this church. I know this man. You(anyone who has read any of my posts) have seen me refer to him in many of my posts. I make no secret of it. He is a leader of music in the church. His wife is the one who told me of the jam night. The info presented is exactly what she said.
He is a gambler that doesn't take care of his family, he refuses to get a job, won't allow his wife to be on the praise team because his pride was hurt, emotionally abusive and more, but I'm giving you a good picture. None of this info was presented at the beginning because it simply wasn't relevant to the op. Accuse me of having impure motives and I will enlighten you. This man is not using this as a way to reach the lost, he doesn't care. it is for his pride and his pride alone. the bar aspect was his idea because that's where he spends most evenings. Folks you can think what you want but this man is not the man of God he wants people to think he is, but he does put on a very good act. i left the church because the preacher allowed this to take place and encouraged the I', ok, you're ok , feel good religion. Sorry , but that just doesn't work for me.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 8:36:32 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2001
Joined: 8/30/2007
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Well Cl, all of the things mentioned , are mind altering substances that I have heard people say they use to get closer to God. Allowing them into worship sounds more cultish and gnostic then it does Christian. Crazy talk or not, it's still done in certain circles, the music man being one of them.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 8:45:18 AM
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bluestone
Posts: 2934
Joined: 2/25/2008
From: United States of America
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Honestly, it sounds like this music leader has serious problems that would preclude him being in church leadership. I understand your frustration with the situation. If his reputation is as bad as your have stated, the situation is not really about alcohol in a church setting, it is about incompetent leadership being allowed to continue, and make serious errors in judgement. Sadly, this could leave the church open to legal situations.
_____________________________
I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 8:47:26 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2001
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
You misled us from the very beginning and then accuse us of lacking in accountability and responsibility. Of wanting to drag God down into seediness, encouraging alcoholism and a variety of other things.
I did none of the above. Only when I saw that it was necessary to disclose the other irrelevant info. did I do so. The only reason I did it was to clarify my position. My position remains the same whether this guy was a part of it or not. Point being, situations like this happen frequently. Is our discernment turned on or have we truly been desensitized to the holiness of God?
If you still feel the same way about a jam session with alcohol in a church setting then the extra information about the leader should not matter to you or anyone else. Stand firm in your position, not wavering as if on sinking sand.
< Message edited by deliveredarling -- 7/24/2008 9:01:41 AM >
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 8:51:32 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2001
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
Honestly, it sounds like this music leader has serious problems that would preclude him being in church leadership. I understand your frustration with the situation. If his reputation is as bad as your have stated, the situation is not really about alcohol in a church setting, it is about incompetent leadership being allowed to continue, and make serious errors in judgement. Sadly, this could leave the church open to legal situations.
Agreed, but the leadership is an issue for another thread. Sadly, we are seeing more and more of this kind of thing in our churches under the guise of ministry and its very disheartening. Which is why I felt the need to discuss it in the forums. These forums reach a lot of people and if it affect even just one person and caused them to stop and think about the state of the body, then it was worth it. The institution itself touches everyone of our friends, family and loved ones lives. it's the eternal security that causes great concern.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 8:52:16 AM
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CoeurdeLeon_
Posts: 9469
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
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That's okay, deliveredarling. Thanks for the lesson. I'll know better than to trust what you say the next time.
Blessings ~
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
10.13.08
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 8:54:16 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2001
Joined: 8/30/2007
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Sorry you feel that way Cl. You are still missing the point.
ETA: The op was not to focus on him or his character flaws. it was to focus on our perceptions of what should or should not take place in a church setting and why or why not. Sorry you didn't pick up on that.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 9:02:20 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6613
Joined: 4/11/2005
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I shared this in another thread yesterday and it seemed to settle the matter and kill the thread:
I have an AKA registered chocolate Labrador Retriever. She's the smartest dog I've ever owned, but she cannot sing.
I hope that helps.
BTW, her registered name is Charlotte Louise (after Lottie Moon & Louis Armstrong, 2 of my heroes), but we simply call her Lottie.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 9:04:45 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2001
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
I shared this in another thread yesterday and it seemed to settle the matter and kill the thread:
I have an AKA registered chocolate Labrador Retriever. She's the smartest dog I've ever owned, but she cannot sing.
I hope that helps.
BTW, her registered name is Charlotte Louise (after Lottie Moon & Louis Armstrong, 2 of my heroes), but we simply call her Lottie.
Thanks for sharing Jimbo. You feeling ok this morning? Have enough coffee? Take your meds?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 9:09:08 AM
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bluestone
Posts: 2934
Joined: 2/25/2008
From: United States of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I shared this in another thread yesterday and it seemed to settle the matter and kill the thread:
I have an AKA registered chocolate Labrador Retriever. She's the smartest dog I've ever owned, but she cannot sing.
BTW, her registered name is Charlotte Louise (after Lottie Moon & Louis Armstrong, 2 of my heroes), but we simply call her Lottie.
I hope that helps.
Do you take up a Christmas offering for her? Did you get her in China?
_____________________________
I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 9:42:51 AM
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armydude
Posts: 16922
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
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Alrighty.... With the combined efforts of the help of a dear friend and reading up in the thread (which was interesting to say the least) I see that this guy is wanting to bring unsaved people into a church. Apparently coffee and snacks will be served (unless I missed something).
To the OP; would you kindly explain to me your objections to this? I'm not disagreeing. I'm confused.
_____________________________
No act of kindness is too small when measured by nail-pierced hands.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 10:02:54 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2001
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
I see that this guy is wanting to bring unsaved people into a church.
Nothing specifically was mentioned about him trying to reach the lost. It was labeled as a jam session-not praise and worship night or any specific religious outreach. As it was originally presented to me, alcohol was to be brought in by the individuals who wanted to imbibe while jamming. (BYOB) and I don't mean bring your own bible.
The jam session was for secular music. The whole scenario was set up to be just like an open mike night at a bar only this would take place in a church. There was no mention, and still hasn't been mentioned as any sort of outreach plan. The target audience is at musicians to "come and show their stuff". Not that the general public would be excluded but it is mainly for musicians to jam.
I posted an update of new information many pages back, that they were now serving refreshments and gourmet coffee.
I still am not fond of the idea of a church being used as a secular gathering place for jam sessions. There are other locations that are appropriate for that sort of thing.
It's kind of like having a jam session at a funeral home. You wouldn't do that either, simply as a matter of respect. Period.
The thread raged on under the premise of the alcohol still being in the scene. Alcohol in the church has been the major debate. the question kept being asked in an implied manner why I object so vehemently to this (alcohol being in church) and I stated some things about the instigator of the leader. Now, I'm accused of being misleading and accusing others of all sorts of things, when in reality, the man's defects have no bearing on my position. It still remains the same whether he was apart of it or not.
This thought bears repeating:
The purpose of this thread is to focus on our perceptions of what should or should not take place in a church setting, why or why not.
Hope that catches you up to speed.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 10:21:59 AM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 706
Joined: 6/12/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
It's kind of like having a jam session at a funeral home. You wouldn't do that either, simply as a matter of respect. Period.
You bring up a very interesting point. We wouldn't have a "jam session" (et al) in a funeral home, a library, many offices, a doctor's office, the rotunda of a capital, etc. Why? Because we know that would be inappropriate and, as you said, it shows a lack of respect.
Why is the church (building) different?
Why do some get so upset at the idea of keeping the building set apart? Yeah, it's just a building. But what does it represent? Is there a sign at this "building" that has the word church on it somewhere? Or the word Christian, maybe?
Why do "Christians" want so badly to look like the world??? No one ever wants to discuss that fact!
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 10:22:19 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1443
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
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Honestly it kind of sounds like you have more problems with the person who came up with the idea than with the actual idea (sans the alcohol part). It's understandable that a guy who has serious issues with moral character yet styles himself a church leader doing something like this might be construed as potentially problematic. For those of us who have only ever had upright worship leaders, I think our bafflement over your disapproval of the situation (sans alcohol, especially) is based in the fact that the worship leaders we have had would generally have proper motivations in arranging a jam session. Whether or not this person has proper motivations in his plan is not something we can discern, as we don't know him and can't ask him.
Regardless, as this is not your church, the overwhelming indignation seems misplaced. One of the churches in my town holds secular concerts at their church all the time, and I've never really thought much of it... not my church, not my business. I don't know if they're leveraging the attendance as a ministry or not. After all, what can you do, really? Not go there with greater vehemence?
If you've already wiped the dust from your feet, perhaps you should just let this, and your grudge against this guy, go.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 10:22:58 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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I still see a very serious difference between the Jewish Temple (maximum of one in existence at any specific time) and one of the hundreds of thousands of church buildings. To insinuate that they are the same is to put down the importance of the Jewish Temple both to the people and to our Savior. The fact that now WE are the temples should be addressed as well. A building is a building. There is nothing in the New Testament about church buildings being sacred (or even existing).
To compare alcohol (a legal substance used by Jesus Christ Himself which only alters ones behavior if used in large quantities) to marijuana (an illegal substance which alters one's behavior even after a small dose) is a bit silly too.
I don't care if you decide not to associate with groups of people who haven't accepted Christ. I choose to do so in hopes that my example might inspire them to seek God. Regardless of the original intent of the meeting, people gathering at a building primarily used for modern day church services and decorated accordingly will make at least one of those people who meet there think. Is the possibility of bringing one lost soul one step closer to salvation not worth having music some people don't like played in a church building?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 10:29:34 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1443
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
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quote:
You bring up a very interesting point. We wouldn't have a "jam session" (et al) in a funeral home, a library, many offices, a doctor's office, the rotunda of a capital, etc. Why? Because we know that would be inappropriate and, as you said, it shows a lack of respect.
Really?
There are concerts at libraries all the time. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A00E7D7153FF930A35752C0A96F958260
There are concerts at funeral homes too. http://www.journal-news.net/page/content.detail/id/501432.html?nav=5065
Offices and doctor's offices just don't have room, mostly.
There are concerts at capitol rotundas all the time, here's one. http://www.austin360.com/event/events2/etc/userEventDisplay.jspd?eventStatus=Approved&eventid=180356
So, apparently it's neither inappropriate nor shows a lack of respect.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 10:29:34 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6613
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
Why do "Christians" want so badly to look like the world??? No one ever wants to discuss that fact!
Peter, since each believer is the Temple of the Holy Spirit, is not one of the great messages of the Christ and the NT that we go with God, regardless of the building or location we are in, that we are Christians in full-time Christian servivc 24/7, that we don't take off and put on God or holiness depending on location or the company we are in?
IOW, in the OT, only certain places and people and certain times were holy and in God's presence. No so since we've been redeemed.
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