algebra and non-sequential thinker (Full Version)

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dramagal -> algebra and non-sequential thinker (7/21/2008 2:13:02 AM)

My oldest did great in algebra. Now my middle child is about to start pre-algebra and she is a global thinker (non-sequential) who doesn't like doing the steps in math and who does not understand how 'x' can equal 5 in one problem and 25 in another.

I did great in math, so I find it very difficult to comprehend her difficulties. It's as if we speak a different language in this subject.

So, does anyone here have any resources you can point me to, or advice?

Thanks!



Jenny-Fair -> RE: algebra and non-sequential thinker (7/21/2008 9:48:21 AM)

How old is she?



creationtalk -> RE: algebra and non-sequential thinker (7/21/2008 6:52:20 PM)

I don't know if this will help, but I usually would explain that x is not really a number...it is a place holder and can represent anything...in each problem we have to explain what that thing is.

And then the simple approach...

x is a variable. That means it varies with the problem.



Jenny-Fair -> RE: algebra and non-sequential thinker (7/21/2008 7:25:08 PM)

I would write 'x' but when I said it out loud, I would replace it with 'what number'.

So, 5x + 17 = 67 would come out sounding like, 'five times what number equals 67?'



dramagal -> RE: algebra and non-sequential thinker (7/21/2008 7:54:27 PM)

She's 13. She's not dumb. She just gets thrown for a loop with the variable idea.

Anyone ever use algebra manipulatives?



1mlasp -> RE: algebra and non-sequential thinker (7/21/2008 8:09:51 PM)

If x being a different number for each problem is stumping her, then why not assign a different letter than x for the next problem? Eventually, she will learn that the exercises are not related to each other and that the value of x can change for each problem. The important thing is that she learn and understand the logic behind solving for the unknown variable - - she can learn that x doesn't remain constant later as she transitions from concrete to more abstract thinking.



Jenny-Fair -> RE: algebra and non-sequential thinker (7/21/2008 8:38:37 PM)

quote:

She's 13. She's not dumb.

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that she was! Just sometimes it takes a little longer for the spatial abilities to kick in. 13 is really on the edge of that. She might just not be ready.



cindybode -> RE: algebra and non-sequential thinker (7/21/2008 10:04:56 PM)

Take her back to elementary math. I'm sure at some point she had a problem where there was a little box, and it was (little box) + 2 = 7 or something like that. Replace the x with the little box for awhile. Then tell her that as we get farther along in algebra, there will sometimes be more than 1 little box in a problem, so we give them letters so we know which one we're talking about.



MrsDC -> RE: algebra and non-sequential thinker (7/25/2008 3:06:40 PM)

Cindy, I like your "little box" idea.



dramagal -> RE: algebra and non-sequential thinker (7/27/2008 8:53:17 PM)

Thanks, all. I bought some algebra manipulatives and an algebra DVD from Netflix and I'll just keep trying from every angle mentioned above - even hanging from the ceiling if I have to! - to help her global mind wrap its pretty head around the concepts. [sm=icon_smile_idea.gif]



Zhi -> RE: algebra and non-sequential thinker (7/28/2008 2:24:53 PM)

I like the box idea. While tutoring algebra for at-risk kids, I would often put something entirely absurd in the place of "x", so they would realize that "x" isn't special, it's just a number holder. So, instead of "x" (which often leads to confusion since it looks disturbingly like a multiplication sign), I would say "apple", or "octopus", or something silly like that. Also, when x is next to a number, make it clear that it's a multiplication. So, 8x + 7 = 25 comes out as "8 times apple plus 7 equals 25" and then ask them what number "apple" was substituting for.

It also can help a lot to explain algebra as a balancing act... you have to keep balancing everything around the equal-sign fulcrum. So, if you subtract from the left side, you have to subtract from the right side too, to keep everything "even". I think it's easier for more visual thinkers to imagine balancing a scale or a teeter-totter as they're doing the steps.



goodnsimple -> RE: algebra and non-sequential thinker (7/28/2008 3:48:10 PM)

Dramagal,
You might want to rethink how forcefully you push Algebra... as was stated by someone else, 13 is the lower edge of the abstract thinking even developing. If your DD gets frustrated, she might be turned off from Algebra and there for Math, for ever.
I took Algebra in 9th grade(14yo) and failed!! (well not actually, cuz I cheated... but if I hadn't cheated a big fat F)
So I took it again in 10th, and struggled. (and hadn't struggled with anything in school ever before that) Decided I was an idiot and quit trying (squeaked by with a solid 2.5)
In college (starting at age 24) I tested into basic math, but talked them in to letting me try College Algebra (because who could afford the time or money to take all those remedial classes) and I did fine! It made sense! I couldn't believe how easy it was.
It isn't a smart thing. It is developmental, if it isn't there, it ain't gonna work, but when it is...wow, it works well.

for what its worth.



allisonbrett -> RE: algebra and non-sequential thinker (7/29/2008 6:08:19 PM)

What curriculum are you using? It may be that another program will work better for global thinkers. You also might want to start with Pre-algebra if she's not already taken it and wait another year for algebra. I agree, at 13 she may just not be ready. Just relax and allow her develop her skills another year.

I'm not a math person either. It took me a while to get through it.

[:)]



dramagal -> RE: algebra and non-sequential thinker (8/1/2008 12:20:25 AM)

For goodnsimple and Allison, it is pre-algebra, and not regular algebra. I use BJUP books, which have great visuals and explain things pretty well. I haven't managed to find a math program that is specifically geared towards global thinkers. It is such a left-brained subject, after all.

Zhi, I love your idea of not just using a box, but something silly like an octopus! My daughter totally loves anything silly. And yes, she hates the idea that x can mean both times and a variable. I told her that's why I prefer using the dot for 'times' and she just stared at me. Well, school's another month away. [8D]



goodnsimple -> RE: algebra and non-sequential thinker (8/1/2008 12:50:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dramagal

I told her that's why I prefer using the dot for 'times' and she just stared at me. Well, school's another month away. [8D]


I think I gave my son that same look today when he was explaining a logic problem to me.

How about making the variable a mystery.... who is the evil Mr. x? (or octopus or whatever???)
Does she prefer word problems? I always did. (didn't make me many friends in ps, I can tell ya that!)



creationtalk -> RE: algebra and non-sequential thinker (8/1/2008 10:06:36 AM)

quote:

13 is the lower edge of the abstract thinking even developing


Huh? My 7 yo. can solve algebra questions using x. I think that everyone is different. Math simply comes easier to some than to others.

I think that the ideas for taking "x" out of the problem are very good. I've done the same thing when teaching when the definition for something uses a generic x, then the problem uses the x as part of the problem...and if the generic x in the definition is applied in place of the x in the problem, the answer will be wrong. So we rename the generic x in the definition to something that will not cause the same type of confusion.



goodnsimple -> RE: algebra and non-sequential thinker (8/1/2008 5:30:01 PM)

I don't think that just solving simple equations for x is what we are talking about. Obviously, whether it is a blank or an x...(or an octopus...[:D] I just love that) The concept that an equation can be made its opposite by changing the function and moving the numbers... that is not the abstract development I am talking about.
More... the fact that x is not a particular number, and that there can be many variables in a single equation; and most frustrating for me is that you may not even have a number at the end of a problem, but you may have an equation still, with variables that do not reduce. That drove me nuts!!

Ratios are also very abstract... so you start out simple and move on to more complex.

My point is that some concepts are developmental not intelligence based. So if the developmental framework is not there no amount of "going over and over" it is going to put it there.



mrsrevbob -> RE: algebra and non-sequential thinker (8/2/2008 9:32:40 AM)

quote:

She's 13. She's not dumb. She just gets thrown for a loop with the variable idea.

Anyone ever use algebra manipulatives?

I know we purchased a book and CD called the Learning equation as an educational resource for the really bright high school kids to offer as a resource, actually one of my grandsons was using it at age twelve, and by that time we were tearing our hair out because he would ask quantum physics questions and he is just so very bright. There are some Math Homework help sites on the internet that are excellent. Just type in math homework help in the search bar. For Chemistry, I would consult my second alma mater, Purdue and MIT had a side by side comaprison panel web site for complex compounds, and Several of my friends helped with chemistry.



mrsrevbob -> RE: algebra and non-sequential thinker (8/2/2008 9:35:17 AM)

I would also add that variable idea requires that a learner master and effectively use the thought skill of moving from the concrete way to solve problems, concrete thinking, to abstract thinking. What I would suggest is that you make sure she has a good founation solving known equations with the theories, and when she has a good understanding of the problem and its mechanics, then move to variables. Math is a series of steps.



gail_k -> RE: algebra and non-sequential thinker (8/3/2008 7:29:08 PM)

Gotta love those global thinkers! God made them that way for a reason. Can't wait to get to heaven to find out what the reason is.

For my first global/random, and each following, we talked a lot about food. Say I have a bag of fish sticks. Or cookies. Or a pizza or candy bar for fractions. We have 5 people in our family. So when there are 20 fish sticks, we have 20/5=x. Or 5 times x = 20. But if we have them for lunch, then it becomes 20/4=x. The x is how many I get to eat. I say there's a candy bar and you and your 2 siblings are going to split it. How much do you get? Wait, one is away from the house. How much do you get? They get that the answer is always x, but that it changes as the purpose of the problem changes. I'm not kidding. Whenever we have trouble with concepts and I can come up with the idea, we go back to food. (When my kids were young I looked for food that could be divided into fractional parts. Don't ask how much I weigh.) Mary Pride gave me the idea - she said every kid does math in preschool when they figure out that they got a smaller piece of the pie or fewer cookies.

In any case, it works for us.



dramagal -> RE: algebra and non-sequential thinker (8/6/2008 2:19:51 AM)

quote:

Math is a series of steps.

Ah, yes, but she is a global thinker who does not grasp things in a linear way, like I do.

I've also had it suggested that I try Transitional Math. Anyone hear of that program?



christsstar -> RE: algebra and non-sequential thinker (8/6/2008 10:16:52 AM)

I tutored my neice in algebra this last year and encountered some very similar issues. She had a hard time remembering each step and a hard time comprehending what she was doing.

Substituting something for "x" is a good idea. And using the empty box [ ] is what I was going to suggest.

Global thinkers also like to see how it applies to real life. So maybe get some real life examples. Why do you care was x is when 5x=25? Well....if you get paid $5/hour and you need to make $25, you need to know how many hours to work. Something like that so it applies to her.



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