Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreements before marriage? (Full Version)

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free-to-worship -> Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreements before marriage? (7/17/2008 5:13:57 PM)

I'm not trying to start a debate here, I would just like to know your thoughts on the subject.
The reason I'm asking this question, is in light of all the divorces that are happening in the Christian community. I know that God is against divorce, but He allows it in certain cases. I'm seeing a lot of Christians getting a divorce and some are having a hard time paying off the debts that their former spouse have made. I don't think wanting a pre-nuptial agreement constitutes a person being rich or very well-off, I think sometimes it is just to protect themselves from any debts that the person they're marrying might have had before they married them, such as school loans.
Again, I don't want a debate, just your thoughts.



Kat_D -> RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreements before marriage? (7/17/2008 5:20:32 PM)

Do you see a model for it in the Bible?



slushie -> RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreements before marriage? (7/17/2008 5:23:17 PM)

I think, sure, I'd want him to be capable of earning money and saving it. I'd definitely want him to responsible. If he didn't know how to save money, or didn't want to earn it, then to me that implies some serious irresponsibility.

If there were debts from before, then we'd definitely work out something to pay them off.

But at the same time, if I got married, I wouldn't expect to be divorced sometime later. [sm=moocow.gif]



preserved -> RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreements before marriage? (7/17/2008 5:51:47 PM)

This is an interesting question...I see nothing wrong with prenuptials...However I think it should only be for a certain time...Particulary if there are property of value involved. As for the bills...both should be working together to get them paid off. Also both parties need to be honest with what bills are coming into the marriage.

Marriage today are not like they use to be...Now if a problem arises within the marriage everybody want to jump ship instead of sitting down and trying to work things out as God intends to be done except if one is committing fornication and/or adultery...

The young people today are all about money...sad

I know of a couple who had been married...they had a joint account...and when the husband decided to leave before divorce was filed...cleaned the account out and left the wife with nothing and there was a child involved. Although the wife was cheating...prenuptials is basically protecting family property or investments made by the one partner...marriage is a contract and broken so many times...



evryknee -> RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreements before marriage? (7/17/2008 6:40:37 PM)

Personally, I can't think of any situation off hand that it would be OK. My thought is that if there is a pre-nuptial, you are already thinking that you will not be together "for richer & poorer and in sickness & in health til death do you part." Divorce would be seen as more casual and marriage as more of an arrangement or contract (limited time).

Since our marriage is a greater picture of Christ & the church, I could not imagine Christ approaching His marriage with the church as something that will dissolve, but in all things, He would reconcile.



Kat_D -> RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreements before marriage? (7/17/2008 6:45:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: YZGUY

Personally, I can't think of any situation off hand that it would be OK. My thought is that if there is a pre-nuptial, you are already thinking that you will not be together "for richer & poorer and in sickness & in health til death do you part." Divorce would be seen as more casual and marriage as more of an arrangement or contract (limited time).

Since our marriage is a greater picture of Christ & the church, I could not imagine Christ approaching His marriage with the church as something that will dissolve, but in all things, He would reconcile.


Amen! It is more of the world seeping into the church....I hate it![:'(][:'(][:'(]



HisCovenant -> RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreements before marriage? (7/17/2008 8:35:52 PM)

If you need a prenup than you shouldn't be marrying to begin with because that means you have doubts that the marriage can last or that the spouse-to-be can be trusted... and that's a recipe for divorce because problems you see before marriage generally just get worse.



song -> RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreements before marriage? (7/18/2008 12:12:39 AM)

quote:

Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreements before marriage?


No.



gaylel1 -> RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreements before marriage? (7/18/2008 1:47:33 AM)

I think Christians should have bibical counseling from a pastor instead of adopting ideas from the world.



free-to-worship -> RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreements before marriage? (7/18/2008 1:54:44 AM)

I agree, marriage is a contract, a covenant, not just between a man and a woman, but it also includes God. And you are so right about people wanting to jump ship when things get rough. Some (not all) people don't want to put in the work or the prayer, trust, and faith time, that it takes to keep a marriage together.

I personally would not get a prenuptial, but I sure would be smart enough to check out the person who I am going to marry. I would check his financial background and other things too, he would be welcomed to do the same by me. At least this way we can both make informed decisions, and hopefully work some things out before the marriage, or at least come up with a plan of some sort.

Back in the days of Jesus, after a man betrothed a woman, he left her with her parents in a safe and stable enviorment, to go home to his father's house, to make a stable home for her, and to make his way in the world so that he would be able to take care of her. He waited for his father to tell him when he believed he was ready to go back for his betrothed, because his father was a trustworthy source of wisdom. His father would not let him go back for his bride a minute sooner than he was ready. Had the decision for the timing to go back for the betrothed had been left up to the man, he may have gone back in haste, before he was ready, because of his excitement over her, and because he loved and missed her. Therefore, the man was established when he went back for his betrothed. Men today do not always think like that. Sometimes they offer marriage sooner than they should, and after the nuptials have taken place, they find that they were not as secure as they thought they were. I'm not saying that people have to go into marriage rich, but I do believe in being responsible. Try to clean up any credit debts and/or any bills that you may have had prior to the marriage so that it won't become a hardship to you and the person you're going to be married to. This is true for the woman as well.

Marriage should be one of the most beautiful things we will ever experience, a picture of Christ and the Church, sadly not everyone regards this holy union as sacred. Sadly, people commit adultery and whatever else to cause divorce to take place, and sometimes they just leave. We know that reconciliation should always be first on our agenda after such tragedies, but it doesn't always work out. I don't recommend a pre-nup, but I pray that people will love and trust God to take care of them before, during, and sadly for some, after their marriage.

I'm glad that I brought up this subject, if nothing else, it caused people to think, and reconsider the value of the covenant of marriage. It caused people to take an even greater stand in faith, and it made us take a practical step and/or look at where we are financially and what changes are necessary, if any.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

quote:

ORIGINAL: preserved

This is an interesting question...I see nothing wrong with prenuptials...However I think it should only be for a certain time...Particulary if there are property of value involved. As for the bills...both should be working together to get them paid off. Also both parties need to be honest with what bills are coming into the marriage.

Marriage today are not like they use to be...Now if a problem arises within the marriage everybody want to jump ship instead of sitting down and trying to work things out as God intends to be done except if one is committing fornication and/or adultery...

The young people today are all about money...sad

I know of a couple who had been married...they had a joint account...and when the husband decided to leave before divorce was filed...cleaned the account out and left the wife with nothing and there was a child involved. Although the wife was cheating...prenuptials is basically protecting family property or investments made by the one partner...marriage is a contract and broken so many times...



free-to-worship -> RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreements before marriage? (7/18/2008 1:57:05 AM)

Very true, I agree 100%.
quote:

ORIGINAL: gaylel1

I think Christians should have bibical counseling from a pastor instead of adopting ideas from the world.



free-to-worship -> RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreements before marriage? (7/18/2008 2:01:29 AM)

You're exactly right. I wanted to bring up this subject to provoke thought on this issue. I've had ver close Christian friends who have gone through divorces and have said that they should have jokinly(?) said they should have gotten a pre-nup. That bothered me. I wanted to get an idea how other Christians were thinking about this.
Thanks for your insightful reply.
quote:

ORIGINAL: YZGUY

Personally, I can't think of any situation off hand that it would be OK. My thought is that if there is a pre-nuptial, you are already thinking that you will not be together "for richer & poorer and in sickness & in health til death do you part." Divorce would be seen as more casual and marriage as more of an arrangement or contract (limited time).

Since our marriage is a greater picture of Christ & the church, I could not imagine Christ approaching His marriage with the church as something that will dissolve, but in all things, He would reconcile.



deermousie -> RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreements before marriage? (7/18/2008 11:08:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: free-to-worship

I personally would not get a prenuptial, but I sure would be smart enough to check out the person who I am going to marry. I would check his financial background and other things too, he would be welcomed to do the same by me. At least this way we can both make informed decisions, and hopefully work some things out before the marriage, or at least come up with a plan of some sort.


Excellent comment. Since getting married is basically putting a yoke on two people for a lifetime, it's a smart move to thoroughly check a potential mate out in the areas of finances, spiritual maturity (what do mature Christians who've known that person for years think of them? What do the pastor/elders think of them? What evidence of spiritual maturity do they show, especially in the areas of ministry, loving the brethren and dealing with their own sin?), emotional maturity, social skills, physical suitability for marriage (general good health is a real plus but not a must; however, with any problems the other person needs to know about it and think through if they are willing to deal with it), mental health, and skills needed for married life. Am I leaving something important out? This seems over-kill to some people, but these are the things that will shape the marriage.

I am personally not in favor of pre-nups, as it could be a declaration that the person doesn't intend to stay married. Most wedding vows include the man promising to give all his earthly possessions to his wife. As several people have pointed out, people don't expect to get divorced when they marry, so the initial checking the person out can be an important step making it less likely of finding oneself in that position. A person who fears God (that's in, reverential awe) is less likely to easily throw off God's commands.

When I used to hear schoolgirls want to get married because "he's so cute and he has a nice car" I just cringed. But some Christians get married for reasons just as silly. If it takes a close walk with God to make a marriage work, then it follows that a person wants to have a close walk with God before choosing the person they'll spend the rest of their life with.



jaimestarcross -> RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreements before marriage? (7/18/2008 1:25:25 PM)

There may not be an exact model of a prenuptial agreement in the Bible but there sure are somethings worth considering... like being a good steward of your money/assets(how much to save, invest, debt management, agreeing to a mediator), providing for children (step-children) spouse and sometimes poor aged parents; debt protection, proper distribution of family property/assets for examples. To various degrees we can find models of that in scripture - Jesus giving over care of his mother to his disciple, David providing for the temple - instructions written; mediators selected to help Moses settle disputes amongst the mass of people he lead, written rules(The Law/Commandments/ordinances/New Covenant.)

A couple may have agreed to do the right thing but too many of us have found out the hard way - memories become "cloudy" when people are in disagreements/not getting along/separated.
I found this out when my first husband divorced me --- I got stuck with all the bills and I was caring for my mother who has several health problems --- my ex got a job working "under the table" for his friend that owns a car dealership(and he lived with his gf whom he later married.) For me this was a wake up call to be more informed about such matters of debt protection - prenuptial agreements - making out a will or estate planning... don't put off doing these things because you are young/or newly married.

Married & single people should sit down and count the cost of what it would mean to either of them(and anyone who's dependent upon them for their upkeep/support/protection) if there's nothing in place to protect assets/property/money should anything happen.

*Speak with an attorney about all legal matters - don't go by "hearsay".



free-to-worship -> RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreements before marriage? (7/18/2008 1:46:34 PM)

All excellent points you made! I'm glad that this subject is up for discussion. It may help someone to not make any hasty decisions that will lead to a big mistake, and if nothing else, it should make us all look before we leap.

quote:

ORIGINAL: free-to-worship

I personally would not get a prenuptial, but I sure would be smart enough to check out the person who I am going to marry. I would check his financial background and other things too, he would be welcomed to do the same by me. At least this way we can both make informed decisions, and hopefully work some things out before the marriage, or at least come up with a plan of some sort.


Excellent comment. Since getting married is basically putting a yoke on two people for a lifetime, it's a smart move to thoroughly check a potential mate out in the areas of finances, spiritual maturity (what do mature Christians who've known that person for years think of them? What do the pastor/elders think of them? What evidence of spiritual maturity do they show, especially in the areas of ministry, loving the brethren and dealing with their own sin?), emotional maturity, social skills, physical suitability for marriage (general good health is a real plus but not a must; however, with any problems the other person needs to know about it and think through if they are willing to deal with it), mental health, and skills needed for married life. Am I leaving something important out? This seems over-kill to some people, but these are the things that will shape the marriage.

I am personally not in favor of pre-nups, as it could be a declaration that the person doesn't intend to stay married. Most wedding vows include the man promising to give all his earthly possessions to his wife. As several people have pointed out, people don't expect to get divorced when they marry, so the initial checking the person out can be an important step making it less likely of finding oneself in that position. A person who fears God (that's in, reverential awe) is less likely to easily throw off God's commands.

When I used to hear schoolgirls want to get married because "he's so cute and he has a nice car" I just cringed. But some Christians get married for reasons just as silly. If it takes a close walk with God to make a marriage work, then it follows that a person wants to have a close walk with God before choosing the person they'll spend the rest of their life with.



HisCovenant -> RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreements before marriage? (7/18/2008 1:52:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deermousie
When I used to hear schoolgirls want to get married because "he's so cute and he has a nice car" I just cringed. But some Christians get married for reasons just as silly. If it takes a close walk with God to make a marriage work, then it follows that a person wants to have a close walk with God before choosing the person they'll spend the rest of their life with.

I am of the same opinion... I can't tell you how many divorced situations I have seen where the "innocent" spouse says there were no signs of problems before the marriage and then list out 5 signs that there were problems that should have been deal breakers. It's amazing the things we will skip over to get married.



free-to-worship -> RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreements before marriage? (7/18/2008 1:55:22 PM)

How right you are jaimestarcross. Thank you for reminding us of such biblically sound and doctrinal Word. Not only do you speak from experience, but you have also came into this discussion with the Word of God to help us in our understanding. God bless you.
quote:

ORIGINAL: jaimestarcross

There may not be an exact model of a prenuptial agreement in the Bible but there sure are somethings worth considering... like being a good steward of your money/assets(how much to save, invest, debt management, agreeing to a mediator), providing for children (step-children) spouse and sometimes poor aged parents; debt protection, proper distribution of family property/assets for examples. To various degrees we can find models of that in scripture - Jesus giving over care of his mother to his disciple, David providing for the temple - instructions written; mediators selected to help Moses settle disputes amongst the mass of people he lead, written rules(The Law/Commandments/ordinances/New Covenant.)

A couple may have agreed to do the right thing but too many of us have found out the hard way - memories become "cloudy" when people are in disagreements/not getting along/separated.
I found this out when my first husband divorced me --- I got stuck with all the bills and I was caring for my mother who has several health problems --- my ex got a job working "under the table" for his friend that owns a car dealership(and he lived with his gf whom he later married.) For me this was a wake up call to be more informed about such matters of debt protection - prenuptial agreements - making out a will or estate planning... don't put off doing these things because you are young/or newly married.

Married & single people should sit down and count the cost of what it would mean to either of them(and anyone who's dependent upon them for their upkeep/support/protection) if there's nothing in place to protect assets/property/money should anything happen.

*Speak with an attorney about all legal matters - don't go by "hearsay".



ChoirDJ -> RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreements before marriage? (7/18/2008 2:13:07 PM)

I'm not so sure that asking for a prenuptial agreement indicates a doubt the marriage will last although this could certainly be one of the reasons for wanting one. Jaimestarcross mentioned one situation but what about cases where a person was previously in a longterm marriage that produced children? Would it be unfair to want to ensure the previous spouse and the children are fairly taken care of if things should go south? Without a written agreement (that's all a prenup is), the children of that first marriage could be left out in the cold if something happens to the spouse that remarries (be it an timely death, illness, or divorce).

We enter contracts all the time so that there's a clear understanding of what each side is obligated to do because it's all too convenient to "forget." We have no problem signing a contract to purchase a car or home, to get a credit card, to rent an apartment or something, to commence employment so why should we have a hard time with someone who wants to have a written agreement about the marital assets and such? Would it be unfair for a Person A to want to protect what the previous spouse may be entitled to or the inheritance of the children from the previous marriage in case something happens to that person? What do I mean what the previous spouse is entitle to? That was handled through the divorce right? Not necessarily. Let's say Person A and his previous spouse owned a business or property together and the market was not favorable at the time of the divorce to sell (like right now). Person A and his previous spouse agree to be friendly about the manner and work together for everyone's good. Person A remarries without a prenup agreement and dies unexpectedly after a few years. What are the chances of Person A's new wife and previous wife resolving this amicably without that Prenup agreement? In this instance, a prenup agreement could helpful in preventing an unnecessarily long, drawn out (not to mention expensive) court battle.

Personally, I'm not for or against them because it really does depend on the circumstances involved and those vary from situation to situation. Perhaps my views are influenced by the fact I work for the superior court system and deal with all types of situations you wouldn't even imagine on a daily basis.



free-to-worship -> RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreements before marriage? (7/18/2008 3:10:21 PM)

Thanks ChoirDJ! You brought up some really good an interesting points.



deermousie -> RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreements before marriage? (7/18/2008 3:19:59 PM)

Here's an idea for a pre-nup:

If one of the couple wants out of the marriage or commits adultery, they have to give all their possessions and half of their future income to the ones being left. Written by an attorney in a way that can't be broken.

OK, OK, I'm settling down now. [:D]



Sadey -> RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreements before marriage? (7/18/2008 4:47:33 PM)

I have a friend that remarried after the death of her husband and she married a man with grown children. Instead of a pre-nup, they went to a lawyer and had their wills drawn up. I think that is a good idea.



ChoirDJ -> RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreements before marriage? (7/18/2008 7:53:45 PM)

quote:

If one of the couple wants out of the marriage or commits adultery, they have to give all their possessions and half of their future income to the ones being left. Written by an attorney in a way that can't be broken.


Funny you mention this...I've actually heard of this one (lol).



edlove50 -> RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreements before marriage? (7/23/2008 4:59:11 PM)

Prenuptials I believe are wrong. My mother left my dad and when they got remarried, they and their new spouses signed prenupitials. A prenuptial tells me one spouse does not trust the other spouse. It also puts a wall between the newlyweds. When two people get married there is to be 100% trust and we are to give 100% of ourselves to our spouses even as Christ gave of Himself to the church. Sure there should be protection against former spouses financial dealings that existed before the divorce, but a good lawyer can fix that. I have alwasys believed that what is mine is hers and what is hers is mine. This would be true if I got remarried. Before getting remarried, each should talk with the other about financial obligations each have at present and during previous marriage so there are no surprises. Also they should discuss financial plans so they prepare for the present and future.



ChoirDJ -> RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreements before marriage? (7/23/2008 5:09:04 PM)

quote:

Sure there should be protection against former spouses financial dealings that existed before the divorce, but a good lawyer can fix that.


edlove50...Isn't this essentially the same as a lawyer helping to persons come together via some sort of written (I.e., prenup)? Keep in mind that some situations can't be resolved before one or both spouses remarry. I would agree a prenup may be a sign of doubts about whether the marriage will last in some cases but not all cases.



CheshireMuse -> RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreements before marriage? (7/23/2008 5:20:46 PM)

I see no problem with it. It's not exactly unheard of either. Take the Old Testament Hebrews for example. When a couple were married, there was a "contract" written and signed which outlined exactly what the husband expected from the wife and what the wife expected from the husband.



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