Is Traading in the Stock Market Gambling? (Full Version)

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needsmet -> Is Traading in the Stock Market Gambling? (7/17/2008 2:54:29 PM)

Hi Everyone,

My question is pretty simple, though I am not sure the answer is. Is trading in the stock market gambling? If so, do you think that its wrong for a Chrsitian to participate in this?

If you feel that it is or is not, please tell me why you think this and back up your conclusion.

Thank you



rcjames -> RE: Is Traading in the Stock Market Gambling? (7/17/2008 3:33:49 PM)

I presume that some forms of stock market intruments might reach the level of gambling, I am thinking of options on the indexes and such.

Buying a stock is investing in a company, you will draw any dividends that are paid, and if the intristic value of the stock goes up or down you will reap accordingly. I do not think this is gambling.

I sorta get the feeling that you think gambling is a sin; would you be so kind as to offer up some Scripture to support that position.

Thanks
RC



needsmet -> RE: Is Trading in the Stock Market Gambling? (7/17/2008 4:19:20 PM)

Ok, I will post my opinion on gambling.

The Bible does not condemn gambling per say. However, like most everything else in Christianity, its the way in which it is done and the motives behind the action that make it a sin or not a sin.

Yes, gambling is wrong and sinful. But we need to define gambling.

Gambling is risking money in an attempt to multiply the money on something that is against the odds. So if you run to Vegas, lay down money in a game of roulet, that is certainly gambling cause the odds are stacked way in favor of the house.

If someone that has no idea what they are doing plays the stock market, its gambling cause the odds of them winning are extremely low. The opposite of this would be someone that is educated in how to trade in the market. So this person would not seem to fit this definition of gambling cause the odds are more in their favor.

The next critera then is how they do this. For example; If someone plays the market or does something else like this with money that they need to survive, pay bills with and live on, its gambling. If they are using money that they can afford to loose, then it is not gambling.

But please post your opions. I know some post questions on these boards because they just like to hear themselves talk or want to answer themselves, but Im honestly looking for other opinions.



ConstantReader -> RE: Is Trading in the Stock Market Gambling? (7/17/2008 4:45:18 PM)

Goodness, no. Who keeps coming up with these wacky questions? [8|]



rcjames -> RE: Is Trading in the Stock Market Gambling? (7/17/2008 5:00:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: needsmet
Yes, gambling is wrong and sinful. But we need to define gambling.

Gambling is risking money in an attempt to multiply the money on something that is against the odds.


Wow, Bill gates and Michael Dell might disagree with you, or THomas Edison, or Mr. Ford, or Ray Croc who founded McDonalds.

Agaisnt odds they invested their dream, time, and monies and Walla.

So please tell me where I can invest my monies where there is no chance of losing some or all of it.

Thanks
RC



needsmet -> RE: Is Trading in the Stock Market Gambling? (7/17/2008 5:14:36 PM)

Constant Reader, Can yuo expouind on your comment? Why do you feel this is a wacky question?



ConstantReader -> RE: Is Trading in the Stock Market Gambling? (7/17/2008 5:26:19 PM)

Because some of us have stock without making our living at it, I guess. Without spending every spare moment living for the almighty buck, but knowing that our investments may be God's way (in part) of helping us prepare for our retirement some day.



needsmet -> RE: Is Trading in the Stock Market Gambling? (7/17/2008 5:30:29 PM)

RCjames,

You make a valid point. Indeed many of the things that people have done, are doing, and will do can be considered gambling because they did things that were against the odds. Indeed Mr Gates, Dell, and many others took a risk when they started their buisinesses.

First, do we know that the people that you mentioned were or are Christians? Of course the next question would be did these people that you mentioned have a word from God that they were to take on these business ventures. If they did have a word from God, then it is no longer a risk and therefore definetely not gambling. But I think we have strayed from the original question.

In my original question, it seems I forgot to say that I was asking as it pertains to a Christian. I just assumed that since this was a Christian board, that it was a given that I was asking from a Christian perspective.

Im sure that many things can be considred gambling if we stick to the strictest since of the definition. But we are talking about gambling with regard to playing the stock market.



needsmet -> RE: Is Trading in the Stock Market Gambling? (7/17/2008 5:31:49 PM)

Constant Reader,

A very good responce. Thank you!



mvic -> RE: Is Traading in the Stock Market Gambling? (7/17/2008 5:38:37 PM)

Most investments in a capitalist system end up with shares in the stock market.

Whether you have a personal or company pension scheme, whether you have life, home or car insurance, whether you have savings with banks or other financial institutions: eventually, the money you have put in (or some of it) will end up being invested in the stock market.

Nothing wrong with that.

Gambling however is different - card games, lottery, betting on horse racing etc ... that's gambling.

Plenty wrong with that if it becomes an addiction.



CCCdnt -> RE: Is Traading in the Stock Market Gambling? (7/17/2008 5:53:14 PM)

needsmet,
Will you post Scripture that you believe shows that gambling is a sin?



mvic -> RE: Is Traading in the Stock Market Gambling? (7/17/2008 5:55:31 PM)

I am reminded of the parable of the Gold Coins. (Luke 19:11).

A man of high rank gave his servants one gold coin each and said: see what you can earn with this. Then went travelling.

On his return, the first servant had earned 10 more coins, the second servant earned 5 more coins; whilst the third servant tied the coin in a handkerchief, took no risks, and returned it back.

The first two servants were rewarded whilst the third was punished.

What is Jesus trying to say here?

Put in a modern context - is there anything wrong with investing in the stock market?

I think not.



needsmet -> RE: Is Traading in the Stock Market Gambling? (7/17/2008 7:10:12 PM)

Hi again,

There are no scriptures that I know of that mention gambling by name. However, like so many other things that are sin, one has to look at the fruits of the action and the motivation of it to determine if it is sinful or not.

For example, gambling is not a wise use of ones money because gambling involves significant risk.
Luke 19:11-27. This is the story about the nobleman that entrusted his wealth to his servants.

The motivation for most folks to gamble is in the hope that they will get rich quickly.
Luke 9:25
"For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and is himself destroyed or lost?"

The motivation for getting rich quick is laziness and not wanting to work for a living.
"Wealth gained by dishonesty will be diminished, but he who gathers by labor will increase."
Proverbs 13:11

Two of my favorite scriptures and ways of telling if something is sin or not is this:
Matthew 7:20
Therefore by their fruits you shall know them. And
"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows."

Most folks that gamble tend to love their money and just want more of it.

Oh, before I forget, someone also mentioned the casting of lots in the Bible as a possible example from the scriptures of gambling.

Proverbs 16:33 says,
“The lot is cast in the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.” Nowhere in the Bible is gambling or "chance" used for entertainment or presented as an acceptable practice for followers of God.

Again, Im just stating my views here. I want to here otherr views. The only way we can learn the truth is to reason together.
Isiaah 1:18



rcjames -> RE: Is Trading in the Stock Market Gambling? (7/17/2008 7:30:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: needsmet

RCjames,

You make a valid point. Indeed many of the things that people have done, are doing, and will do can be considered gambling because they did things that were against the odds. Indeed Mr Gates, Dell, and many others took a risk when they started their buisinesses.

First, do we know that the people that you mentioned were or are Christians? Of course the next question would be did these people that you mentioned have a word from God that they were to take on these business ventures. If they did have a word from God, then it is no longer a risk and therefore definetely not gambling. But I think we have strayed from the original question.

In my original question, it seems I forgot to say that I was asking as it pertains to a Christian. I just assumed that since this was a Christian board, that it was a given that I was asking from a Christian perspective.

Im sure that many things can be considred gambling if we stick to the strictest since of the definition. But we are talking about gambling with regard to playing the stock market.


So you are saying that a Christian cannot own a company or a portion thereof. That is really strange.

When one purchaces stock they are purchasing a portion of that company; they become the owner of that company to what ever percentage of stock that they purchased.

My Goodness what do you have against owning a company????


Thanks
RC



needsmet -> RE: Is Trading in the Stock Market Gambling? (7/17/2008 7:52:30 PM)

Hi again rcjames,

As I stated before, I prefer to stay on topic. Owning a company has nothing to do with gambling. Though I do see what you are saying. Purchasing stock is indeed buying a piece of that company. However, we are not trying to access the morality of being a Christian and owning a company.

When you invest in the stock market, and therfore purchase stock in a company, you are gambling that the companies stock will go up in value. If the stock goes up in value, you have profited. If it goes down in value, you have lost.

This is the concept of gambling.



Dubya -> RE: Is Trading in the Stock Market Gambling? (7/17/2008 9:54:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: needsmet

When you invest in the stock market, and therfore purchase stock in a company, you are gambling that the companies stock will go up in value. If the stock goes up in value, you have profited. If it goes down in value, you have lost.

This is the concept of gambling.

This is NOT the concept of gambling.

When a person purchases stock in a company they purchase something with real value. The question of whether the value of the stock will go up or down is no different than when a retailer purchases inventory to sell in his store. He has a reasonable expectation for a profit – but if he makes poor selections in his choice of inventory he may not make a profit.

In other words the presence of risk does not constitute “gambling”. The insurance industry exists on the premise of risk. You pay an insurance company to assume some or all of your risk – whether it is on your life, house, car, business, etc. It would be a real stretch to call the insurance business gambling. That is because there is always something of real value involved.

Compare this with a casino. When you place a few chips on a number in a roulette game you are risking your money on the chance that the ball will land on your number. There is nothing of real value involved in this enterprise. That is what makes it gambling.



needsmet -> RE: Is Trading in the Stock Market Gambling? (7/17/2008 10:16:49 PM)

Dubya,

Exactly, which is why I said it was the concept of gambling and I did not call it gambling. This is the question that we are trying to decide on. Just what constitutues gamlbing.



Dubya -> RE: Is Trading in the Stock Market Gambling? (7/17/2008 10:29:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: needsmet

Dubya,

Exactly, which is why I said it was the concept of gambling and I did not call it gambling. This is the question that we are trying to decide on. Just what constitutues gamlbing.


Seems to me you are equating the concept of gambling with the concept of risk. As I said, they are not equivalent.

Gambling involves risk, to be sure, but risk invloves so much more than gambling, as I described in my previous post that they cannot possibly be equivalent.

Gambling is the risk of something of value (like money) on a chance event (like the roll of dice or the spin of a roulette wheel, or even the outcome of a sporting event). Chance events are nothing of real value.

Risking money on trading stocks involves the purchase of something of real value. That is the difference!



martyfran -> RE: Is Trading in the Stock Market Gambling? (7/21/2008 7:40:55 AM)

My brother is a used car dealer. He buys cars hoping that he can re-sell them at a higher price. Of course, he sometimes loses money. Is he gambling?



fiat_lux -> RE: Is Trading in the Stock Market Gambling? (7/21/2008 7:57:27 AM)

quote:

There are no scriptures that I know of that mention gambling by name. However, like so many other things that are sin, one has to look at the fruits of the action and the motivation of it to determine if it is sinful or not.

For example, gambling is not a wise use of ones money because gambling involves significant risk.

I'd be careful drawing moral lessons from actions in parables. Parables have lessons, but the people in them don't necessarily act in ways we are supposed to. (In one other parable in Luke 16, for example, Jesus basically praises an accountant who defrauds his employer after getting a pink slip; but obviously the lesson here is not that we're supposed to do that).

Furthermore, I think we have to reconsider this idea that risk = gambling = sin. In a sense any business-related move is a risk. Most new businesses fail within a few years. From this logic therefore it would be sinful of me to invest in starting a new business. Yet all businesses had to start off somewhere. People take risks and earn rewards; this is how our economy functions. We could say that the entire economic system is based on sin (and to a certain extent maybe it is, since capitalism relies on at least self-interest if not greed), I guess, but it would be a little hypocritical to do that for those of us who already have jobs.

The distinction I would make is that if you're taking significant amounts of money and basically squandering it by spending it in very high-risk games of chance (which could be some forms of high-risk investing, but certainly not all investing always), purely because you enjoy throwing the money around and not because you rely on that investing for your income, than that would be worrying. That I think would be disrespectful in the sense that God has blessed us with prosperity and we have, I think, an obligation to use that prosperity wisely and compassionately in His name, and not to squander it.



moon_mouse -> RE: Is Trading in the Stock Market Gambling? (7/21/2008 3:26:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: needsmet

When you invest in the stock market, and therfore purchase stock in a company, you are gambling that the companies stock will go up in value. If the stock goes up in value, you have profited. If it goes down in value, you have lost.



A person who invests in a company through the purchase of stock is not necessarily hoping to gain by a rise in value. Some stock is purchased as an income investment, in other words with an eye to using dividends paid as income. Also, one doesn't always profit when a stock goes up in value. Broker fees and inflation can eat away any real profits even if a stock goes up in value.

I have to agree with Dubya, a stock purchase involves risk, but I am unconvinced that risk alone defines gambling. Risk has to be paired with a significant element of chance and a lack of real value to be gambling. Now, by that definition, some investment in derivatives, especially speculative investment in derivatives, might fit the term "gambling", but investment in straight stocks does not.



martyfran -> RE: Is Trading in the Stock Market Gambling? (7/21/2008 5:46:42 PM)

quote:

I have to agree with Dubya, a stock purchase involves risk, but I am unconvinced that risk alone defines gambling.


Of course even if risk defines gambling (which I wouldn't concede) we would still have to figure out why gambling is a bad thing. After all, we can't avoid risk, even if you put your money in an FDIC insured savings account, you are just passing off the risk on someone else. If it is not moral for me to bear risk, why would it be moral to expect the FDIC to bear it?



GroupW -> RE: Is Trading in the Stock Market Gambling? (7/21/2008 5:51:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: martyfran

quote:

I have to agree with Dubya, a stock purchase involves risk, but I am unconvinced that risk alone defines gambling.


Of course even if risk defines gambling (which I wouldn't concede) we would still have to figure out why gambling is a bad thing. After all, we can't avoid risk, even if you put your money in an FDIC insured savings account, you are just passing off the risk on someone else. If it is not moral for me to bear risk, why would it be moral to expect the FDIC to bear it?


Good point on risk transfer. I agree though I look at it slightly differently.

With a passbook account or the equivalent, I view it as just exchanging one kind of risk for another. For most of us that aren't all that wealthy, having a very safe but low-interest passbook savings account means we're taking inflation risk. Since those accounts typically have returns at or below inflation, one would lose purchasing power as prices climb.

Life is risk. You can choose (to some degree) which risks you take and which you don't, but you can't avoid it altogether.



needsmet -> RE: Is Traading in the Stock Market Gambling? (7/22/2008 6:54:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

I am reminded of the parable of the Gold Coins. (Luke 19:11).



I just wanted to get back to you real quick on this. You asked what God was trying to say here in this parable. Its a simple parable about being a good stewart of what you are given. The one that just put his 1 talon in the ground was a bad stewart of what God have him. The one that used it to make more was a good stewart.

This parable then tells us that we need to use wisely what God has given us. Be that money, abilities etc...

So does Trading fit the critera of using ones money wisely?



needsmet -> RE: Is Trading in the Stock Market Gambling? (7/22/2008 7:06:59 PM)

I think you both have this. I dont think risk alone defines gambling or not gambling. In the old testement, we had laws like the 10 commandements. Its was a clear cut set of rules and there was just no 2 ways about it. Either you kept them and was a Christian, or you didnt and you werent.

Now its all different. In the new testement, its all about why you did something, why you want to do something, why you even think a certain way. So its all about yuor motivation.

To one, trading might be gambling because of the motivation behind the action. Yet to another, it might not be gambling cause of how he is doing it.

So I think it all comes down to how and why you do something or dont do something that determines if it is gambling. Me, I just want to make a living in the stock market, pay the bills and all that.



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