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RE: Americans, protect your finances by.... - 7/20/2008 8:52:26 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 5175
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From: Jesus Land
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Your argument doesn't make sense. You might as well as be saying that God prefers we drive donkeys, since they didn't drive cars in Bible times. 
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RE: Americans, protect your finances by.... - 7/20/2008 11:44:11 PM
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blessedinnyc
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If we're on the subject of biblical assets, there's one other major asset people seem to be overlooking- land.
If you buy arable land, you might not make a fortune, but you should always be able to afford to eat! 
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RE: Americans, protect your finances by.... - 7/22/2008 3:09:42 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2713
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
Amen! never wrong in land and....i am a composting operator.....using worms!
Shalom
Whether gold, land or a fiat currency, you can't avoid taking some form of risk. Gold is more price-volatile over short periods than cash (unless you lived in, say, Weimar Germany in the 20's), while a fiat currency is more prone to longer term inflation concerns/economic manipulation. Which form of currency you would prefer would depend a lot your your risk taking profile and how you personally weight long vs short term risks.
Land right now (in raw, undeveloped form) is down about 30-40% in value over the last 12 months (my company lends on commercially developable land - that's about what we're seeing for valuation declines). Check out Lennar's financial reports back in Sept/Oct to see how big a bath you can take in land.
In the end, there's no avoiding risk. We can often choose which risks we prefer to take, but we can't avoid it. Making the problem worse, most behavioral economists indicate that when we take action to address risks, we usually do so at the wrong times and in the wrong amounts & instruments. We thereby usually make our situation worse not better.
Not unlike the biblical principal of sin - we seem programmed to making counterproductive choices.
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“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Americans, protect your finances by.... - 7/22/2008 7:43:59 PM
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prophet
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Most behavourial economists are just that.....a behaviour too late! Knee jerkers at best.
i have been waiting for the prop crash since 4 yaers ago....the cycles of economics are still the same....nothings chnged...
you rightly say...
quote:
we usually do so at the wrong times and in the wrong amounts & instruments
In the present days of impatience and instant, fast everything, the way to play is consistent compounded growth to beat the rest- ala Buffet.
i have invested in gold since 2002, seeing the mess that US was getting itself into with deficit spending and a debt culture leading to the inevitable...its unwinding now....but the perfect storm is still gathering speed.
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RE: Americans, protect your finances by.... - 7/22/2008 11:48:01 PM
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prophet
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Wachovia has $8.9B loss, cuts 6,350 jobs, dividend
By IEVA M. AUGSTUMS
AP Business Writer
Chuck Burton / AP Photo
Wachovia Corp. headquarters is shown in Charlotte, N.C., Friday, July 18, 2008. Wachovia says it lost $8.86 billion in the second quarter Tuesday, July 22, 2008, hurt by a big goodwill charge and an increase in reserves for bad loans as mortgage defaults soar
» More Photos
CHARLOTTE, N.C. -- Wachovia Corp. lost $8.86 billion in the second quarter, and said Tuesday it was slashing its dividend and cutting 6,350 jobs after losses tied to mortgages soared.
Even excluding one-time items, the results substantially missed Wall Street estimates, and shares sank to mid-1991 levels in premarket trading.
"These bottom-line results are disappointing and unacceptable," Chairman Lanty Smith said in a statement. "While to some degree they reflect industry headwinds and weaker macroeconomic conditions, they also reflect performance for which we at Wachovia accept responsibility."
The nation's fourth-largest bank by assets says it lost the equivalent of $4.20 per share in the April-June period. In the same timeframe last year, the bank earned $2.34 billion, or $1.22 per share.
Excluding $6.1 billion in write-downs to the value of its intangible assets and merger-related and restructuring charges of $128 million, Wachovia lost $2.67 billion, or $1.27 per share. Second quarter results include the bank's October acquisition of A.G. Edwards Inc.
Analysts on average expected a loss of 78 cents per share on revenue of almost $8.4 billion.
http://www.miamiherald.com/business/AP/story/613353.html
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RE: Americans, protect your finances by.... - 7/22/2008 11:49:14 PM
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prophet
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The rush for Gold: Sales of bars double
Investors opt for bullion rather than shares or property. By Rachel Shields
Sunday, 20 July 2008
Britons who still have any wealth to invest are turning their backs on the property portfolios, stocks and shares, and sports cars that have long constituted conventional investments, and pumping their savings into old-fashioned gold bullion and coins.
Leading gold bullion suppliers BullionVault, ATS Bullion and Baird & Co have all revealed record levels of investment in gold bars, and the World Gold Council (WGC) has reported a big increase in the number of gold coins being bought.
Last year saw an 81 per cent increase in UK investment in gold coins, taking the amount bought to 4.5 tons. Traditionally, in Indian and Asian markets, gold jewellery and coins have often been traded, while in France and Italy the trade in ingots – small pieces of gold – has previously been much stronger than in the UK.
But this is changing. "We have seen a rising level of interest in gold as an investment in the UK," said Matthew Graydon of the WGC. "Retail investors have realised that gold offers an effective hedge against currency movements, is an effective inflation hedge, and is a proven safe haven in times of financial turbulence."
New figures from BullionVault reveal the amount of gold bars purchased through them has doubled in the past year to 7.5 tons, more than half of which is owned by British clients. ATS Bullion claims its turnover has doubled in the past year, while Baird & Co reports customers queueing around the block to buy its gold.
With minimum outlays of around £1,000 at most bullion companies, tangible investments are looking increasingly attractive for middle-income savers. It seems that factors which once deterred people from investing in gold – such as bullion not paying interest – are no longer putting savers off.
"I put a significant percentage of my investments in gold bullion about two years ago," said David Walker, an account manager for a media company.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/the-rush-for-gold-sales-of-bars-double-872392.html
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RE: Americans, protect your finances by.... - 7/23/2008 12:05:38 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2713
Joined: 11/16/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
Most behavourial economists are just that.....a behaviour too late! Knee jerkers at best.
i have been waiting for the prop crash since 4 yaers ago....the cycles of economics are still the same....nothings chnged...
you rightly say...
quote:
we usually do so at the wrong times and in the wrong amounts & instruments
In the present days of impatience and instant, fast everything, the way to play is consistent compounded growth to beat the rest- ala Buffet.
i have invested in gold since 2002, seeing the mess that US was getting itself into with deficit spending and a debt culture leading to the inevitable...its unwinding now....but the perfect storm is still gathering speed.
As far as behavioral economists - actually they're trying to explain "knee jerk" behavior and why financial markets are not efficient and doing a fairly decent job. For years, we've had the myth of the "rational investor". What behavioral economists have found is that people are not rational at all. Key findings of behavioral economists recently:
1) While markets are more or less efficient in the long run, in the short run we take some very extended vacations away from rational pricing.
2) We tend not to like to admit mistakes, and as a result, we tend to hang on to our losing investments way to long and take our profits way too early.
3) We all tend to think we're above average and are overconfident in our judgements. As a result, we tend to underresearch and tend to hang on to our investment opinions even when confronted with clear facts to the contrary.
There are a few more - but these are the major ones I remember.
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"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Americans, protect your finances by.... - 7/23/2008 12:08:43 AM
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meg4
Posts: 211
Joined: 4/21/2005
From: North Georgia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
ORIGINAL: NoShow
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
Its not just a simple matter of inflation. Its a matter of the demise of the USD. Gold is inverse to USD. USD has been on the down trend from since 5 years back....while gold has been trending upwards from $250 to $960 today.
And how am I to buy food, gas, shelter, medical, etc. if I tie up most or all of my USD into gold? I have no monthly bills that can be paid in gold.
Now, if you're planning to convert all money into gold and move to the hills until civilization has destroyed itself, then that might be another matter... equally unacceptable and reminiscent of the Y2K panic. We aren't going there, are we?
Besides, in that scenario, you're better off buying lead, than gold.
Come again? Ever since anyone trade for goods/services with lead?
I think NoShow means lead as in lead bullets. Like when John Wayne was trying to get his stolen livestock back and the thief asked him if he brought gold or silver to buy the livestock and he said "No, just lead."
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RE: Americans, protect your finances by.... - 7/23/2008 2:36:53 AM
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prophet
Posts: 448
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: meg4
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
ORIGINAL: NoShow
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
Its not just a simple matter of inflation. Its a matter of the demise of the USD. Gold is inverse to USD. USD has been on the down trend from since 5 years back....while gold has been trending upwards from $250 to $960 today.
And how am I to buy food, gas, shelter, medical, etc. if I tie up most or all of my USD into gold? I have no monthly bills that can be paid in gold.
Now, if you're planning to convert all money into gold and move to the hills until civilization has destroyed itself, then that might be another matter... equally unacceptable and reminiscent of the Y2K panic. We aren't going there, are we?
Besides, in that scenario, you're better off buying lead, than gold.
Come again? Ever since anyone trade for goods/services with lead?
I think NoShow means lead as in lead bullets. Like when John Wayne was trying to get his stolen livestock back and the thief asked him if he brought gold or silver to buy the livestock and he said "No, just lead."
Thanks meg!
i aint no american, so dont know Joh wayne too well... 
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RE: Americans, protect your finances by.... - 7/23/2008 10:59:35 AM
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NoShow
Posts: 427
Joined: 5/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: meg4
I think NoShow means lead as in lead bullets. Like when John Wayne was trying to get his stolen livestock back and the thief asked him if he brought gold or silver to buy the livestock and he said "No, just lead."
Imagine if things got so bad in the US, that dollars were no longer any good and you had to use gold.
First, off, what businesses would still be operating, where one could get goods or services in exchange for the gold?
What would all of the people without gold be doing to get things? I think the past has shown us what, looting.
Where would one keep this gold and when they needed it, would they actually have access to it?
I think if they had possession of it, they'd only have it until the person with the lead came along and took it from them.
It's like that old Twilight Zone episode with the bomb shelter. And as a society, we've gotten worse.
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RE: Americans, protect your finances by.... - 7/28/2008 8:09:57 PM
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prophet
Posts: 448
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U.S. regulators close two more banks
Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:45pm EDT
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. regulators took over two banks on Friday and sold them to Mutual of Omaha Bank, the sixth and seventh bank failures this year as the economy struggles under the weight of falling home prices.
Two weeks after the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp seized IndyMac Bancorp Inc, the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency said it closed First National Bank of Nevada and First Heritage Bank NA of California.
First National had total assets of $3.4 billion and $3 billion in deposits while First Heritage had assets of $254 million and $233 million in deposits, regulators said.
(Reporting by John Poirier; Editing by Tim Dobbyn)
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsO...28445020080726
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RE: Americans, protect your finances by.... - 7/28/2008 8:14:11 PM
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prophet
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Merrill Lynch bids to raise $8.5bn as it faces further writedowns
By James Quinn, in Los Angeles
Last Updated: 12:15am BST 29/07/2008
Merrill Lynch is to raise an extra $8.5bn (£4.25bn) in fresh capital on top of $23.5bn already raised in the past 12 months as the beleaguered investment bank took some drastic steps to right its capital position.
Merrill, which just two weeks ago announced plans to raise almost $8bn from asset sales including its 20pc stake in financial news provider Bloomberg, revealed that it needs to raise the money after disclosing that it will take a financial "hit" of $10.6bn in the third quarter.
The news will come as a surprise to the financial community, which had hoped that the worse was over for Merrill, which has already been one of the largest victims to date of the continuing credit crisis.
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Prior to this latest series of writedowns and exceptional losses, Merrill has already written down $40bn in assets and other instruments.
But chairman and chief executive John Thain said that the news was positive, because of the fact it has been able to off-load the "substantial majority" of its positions in a certain type of complex debt vehicle.
Mr Thain, who took over from Stan O'Neal last December, said the news marked a "significant milestone in our risk reduction efforts".
Merrill has agreed to sell a package of complex debt vehicles - known as collateralised debt obligations (CDOs) - to private equity house Lone Star. Lone Star is paying $6.7bn for the CDOs, which have a notional value of $30.6bn, but were on Merrill's books at $11.1bn.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/07/29/cnmerr129.xml
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RE: Americans, protect your finances by.... - 8/19/2008 8:01:48 PM
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prophet
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Exclusive Interview: Jim Rogers Predicts Bigger Financial Shocks Loom, Fueling a Malaise That May Last for Years
[The First of Two Parts.]
Keith Fitz-Gerald
Investment Director
Money Morning/The Money Map Report
VANCOUVER, B.C. – The U.S. financial crisis has cut so deep – and the government has taken on so much debt in misguided attempts to bail out such companies as Fannie Mae (FNM) and Freddie Mac (FRE) – that even larger financial shocks are still to come, global investing guru Jim Rogers said in an exclusive interview with Money Morning.
Indeed, the U.S. financial debacle is now so ingrained – and a so-called “Super Crash” so likely – that most Americans alive today won’t be around by the time the last of this credit-market mess is finally cleared away – if it ever is, Rogers said.
The end of this crisis “is a long way away,” Rogers said. “In fact, it may not be in our lifetimes.”
During a 40-minute interview during a wealth-management conference in this West Coast Canadian city last month, Rogers also said that:
U.S. Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke should “resign” for the bailout deals he’s handed out as he’s tried to battle this credit crisis.
That the U.S. national debt – the roughly $5 trillion held by the public– essentially doubled in the course of a single weekend because of the Fed-led credit crisis bailout deals.
That U.S. consumers and investors can expect much-higher interest rates – noting that if the Fed doesn’t raise borrowing costs, market forces will make that happen.
And that the average American has no idea just how bad this financial crisis is going to get.
“The next shock is going to be bigger and bigger, still,” Rogers said. “The shocks keep getting bigger because we keep propping things up … [and] bailing everyone out.”
http://www.moneymorning.com/2008/08/19/jim-rogers/
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RE: Americans, protect your finances by.... - 8/19/2008 8:05:25 PM
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prophet
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quote:
Q): Earlier this year, when we talked in Singapore, you made the observation that the average American still doesn’t know anything’s wrong – that anything’s happening. Is that still the case?
Rogers:Yes.
(Q): What would you tell the “Average Joe” in no-nonsense terms?
Rogers: I would say that for the last 200 years, America’s elected politicians and scoundrels have built up $5 trillion in debt. In the last few weekends, some un-elected officials added another $5 trillion to America’s national debt.
Suddenly we’re on the hook for another $5 trillion. There have been attempts to explain this to the public, about what’s happening with the debt, and with the fact that America’s situation is deteriorating in the world.
I don’t know why it doesn’t sink in. People have other things on their minds, or don’t want to be bothered. Too complicated, or whatever.
I’m sure when the [British Empire] declined there were many people who rang the bell and said: “Guys, we’re making too many mistakes here in the U.K.” And nobody listened until it was too late.
When Spain was in decline, when Rome was in decline, I’m sure there were people who noticed that things were going wrong.
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RE: Americans, protect your finances by.... - 8/20/2008 8:43:00 AM
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P31W
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I own actual gold. Now I need to "eat" what am I going to do with this gold? How do I cash it in? I also need to pay my power bill and my water bill and put some gas in my car.
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RE: Americans, protect your finances by.... - 8/20/2008 9:55:42 AM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1818
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
I own actual gold. Now I need to "eat" what am I going to do with this gold? How do I cash it in? I also need to pay my power bill and my water bill and put some gas in my car.
*Cough, dividend stocks, Cough*
Seriously! I get about $25/month from various oil trusts, oil companies, and utilities. The best part is that a lot of these stocks are cheap. All of the scaredy-cats in the market are selling the utilities, pipelines, and energy stockst they normally invest in and putting them in treasuries. This means a great buying opportunity for everyone else.
If you have a lot of money to invest and don't want to risk losing 15% of it inflation-adjusted, your best move is to give it away. For those of us willing to take on some risk, I think the best investments right now are boring stocks that nobody is interested in investing in. The really risky investors have taken their 25% licks and are ready for more. The scaredy cats are all in treasuries. Nobody's really interested in utilities, which is ironic because the US is a few years away from an electricity shortage a-la the oil shortage of the past few years.
Finally, of course, there is land. Right now, you can buy a house in detroit for $2K. I would recommend buying up about 50 adjacent houses, knocking them down, and selling it as a farm for $200K. You may even be able to recycle the building materials for a tidy profit.
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RE: Americans, protect your finances by.... - 8/20/2008 10:09:50 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2441
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You didn't answer my question. What do I do with this stuff? How do I make it pay my power bill? It's not paper it's the real stuff.
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RE: Americans, protect your finances by.... - 8/20/2008 12:09:43 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1818
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
You didn't answer my question. What do I do with this stuff? How do I make it pay my power bill? It's not paper it's the real stuff.
Well, a dividend from a utility is the real stuff, too. Ultimately, you *own* this company. (I am not allowed to mention specific securities, so please bear with me.) If you own 0.1% of the power company that serves a community of 1000 and you pay the power company $500 for electricity while everyone else does the same, you haven't lost that $500. Instead, you've lost the electric company's costs of making that $500 (the price of coal, uranium, natural gas, materials, and labor.) Look for a company that respects shareholders by paying a decent dividend, and you will have your cash flow issues taken care of, as well.
If the USD ever becomes not "real stuff", the utility might choose to pay the dividend in gold, electricity, or some other form. Same with the oil company.
Let me put it another way. If you get together with three neighbors to set up a cooperative to build a wind turbine, is your share of the cooperative "real stuff"? What's the difference between that and owning 100 of 10,000,000 shares issued by your utility?
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RE: Americans, protect your finances by.... - 8/20/2008 9:31:52 PM
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prophet
Posts: 448
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
You didn't answer my question. What do I do with this stuff? How do I make it pay my power bill? It's not paper it's the real stuff.
You HAVE mentioned it yousrelf.....cash in some of your gold for those paper for exchange
Gold preserves value, paper loses it.... 
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RE: Americans, protect your finances by.... - 8/21/2008 8:34:58 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2441
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OK so i remove it from the safe and do what with it? I need $400.00 to pay my bills.
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RE: Americans, protect your finances by.... - 8/21/2008 8:47:49 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6501
Joined: 4/11/2005
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To quote the true Prophet, "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."
And again:
And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully: And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits? And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods. And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
The rest of the story, if you're uncertain, is found in Luke 12. It's a very wortwhile story.
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RE: Americans, protect your finances by.... - 8/21/2008 10:24:07 AM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1818
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
To quote the true Prophet, "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."
Sweet! My heart's in an oil well! It's buried safely underground until the master gets back!
quote:
And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully: And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits? And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods. And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
Yes, my life could end this very night, but at least my brother will be able to pay for MIT if he gets in.
In all seriousness, though, the Protestant Christian tradition for the past 500 years is generally summed up by John Wesley:
"Work all you can, save all you can, so you can give all you can." It's better for Christians to save up money than for them to go out and spend it on a down payment for a new BMW like many people do.
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