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RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... - 7/10/2008 11:00:06 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1782
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sonrise
Maybe Ezra is a devout Washerite and was offended?
Sonrise:
I have no idea as to what a "devout Washerite" is (unless it is an obsessively compulsive person who keeps washing his hands beyond reasonable expectations).
And I was not personally "offended" since I do not even know who Mart de Haan is. Had I not see the link to his web site in this thread, I would not even have known about his teaching.
But I will say one thing. Any man who claims to speak for God must present God's truth in God's way, and fully supported by Scripture. de Haan fails miserably. He not only misleads, but he sows seeds of confusion, and presents outright heresy as truth.
No Christian has the right to put Moses and Paul on the same level as Christ. They did not, and could not, enunciate any spiritual laws on their own. All they could do (and did) is present God's laws to men as God directed them.
Now, if a preacher or teacher does not have clarity on such a simple and fundamental truth, why should we believe anything that he has to say? He is self-deceived and also deceving others. Scripture says that "Many deceivers are gone out into the world". Therefore we must constantly be on our guard against false doctrine and outright heresy.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... - 7/10/2008 11:14:01 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1782
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tony.nz
I think the biggest issue here is the view of heresy. I have previously given my dictionary definition of the word, and it is basically an attack, or impious words, in regard to the nature and character of God. It is certainly not a charge we should lay against anyone over a disagreement on doctrine. Even if we think they are totally wrong.
tony:
Using your definition of heresy (which is perfectly acceptable, though rather narrower than how Scripture defines it), the fact that de Haan speaks of "following instructions" to get to Heaven (and you can't deny that that is exactly what he did in this article) is indeed an attack on the nature and character of God.
No amount of "instructions" can get a sinner to Heaven. It is only by God's grace (His character) and through the Person and finished work of Christ (in whom His nature is revealed as Love, Light, and Life) that any man can enter into, or see, the Kingdom of God.
To an unbeliever or an untaught believer, this whole business about following "instructions" is highly misleading and downright deceptive. No man can obey God perfectly and thus enter Heaven. Period. So why did de Haan even take this tack in the first place?
Why did he not simply preach the Gospel of Christ, the grace of God, and the Person and finished work of Christ? Why did he ramble on and on about listening and obedience, when neither listening nor obedience can bring a sinner to Heaven?
I believe I have made an accurate assessment of this man through his own words. The onus is on him to weigh every word carefully if he presumes to speak for God. And the onus is on us to "Prove all things, and to hold fast that which is good".
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... - 7/11/2008 2:53:55 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1200
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
No Christian has the right to put Moses and Paul on the same level as Christ.
So the commands of Moses and Paul, as directed by God, are somehow... Less inspired than Christ's?
The writer of that article was not suggesting that Moses and Paul were God, nor that Christ was merely man. He was using them as examples of the three main "rule givers" in Scripture - the three whose rules those who wish to earn their way to heaven (an impossibility that Mart de Haan is trying to fight against) most often strive to, and ultimately fail to, live by.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... - 7/11/2008 11:08:32 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2657
Joined: 11/16/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
Using your definition of heresy (which is perfectly acceptable, though rather narrower than how Scripture defines it), the fact that de Haan speaks of "following instructions" to get to Heaven (and you can't deny that that is exactly what he did in this article) is indeed an attack on the nature and character of God.
No amount of "instructions" can get a sinner to Heaven.
I think you're getting hung up words a bit. The "instructions" he appears to be talking about are nothing more than the "instruction" Paul and Christ provide us in his word - repent and believe. In fact, I think De Haan and you are completely on the same page on this. De Haan seems to be indicating that a simple following of a code of behavior without a heartfelt change in our attitude towards God is completely ineffectual to guide us safely home.
Is there anything wrong with that viewpoint?
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... - 7/11/2008 11:11:27 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2657
Joined: 11/16/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
Why did he not simply preach the Gospel of Christ, the grace of God, and the Person and finished work of Christ? Why did he ramble on and on about listening and obedience, when neither listening nor obedience can bring a sinner to Heaven?
Because there is a whole new generation coming up that no longer speaks evangelese. It's important to be able to communicate old truths with new words and phrases. Not everyone can be reached with the same imagery - I think it's smart to mix things up a bit and try out new phrasings to communicate the same truths to different people with different backgrounds. It's nothing different than Paul did in trying to be all things to all people that some might be saved.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... - 7/11/2008 11:21:58 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 766
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Exactly, MrFribbles.
Ezra: I think you need to read the article again:
http://www.rbc.org/bible-study/been-thinking-about/2008/08/01/column.aspx
First, I think you are misunderstanding this part:
quote:
"What if we see heaven as the mission control whose instructions will get us safely home if we follow directions? Here’s my reaction: If getting “home” safely depends on our ability to do what we are told to do, then “Houston, we really do have a problem."
Translation: if you are relying on your ability to follow directions, if your salvation depends on that ability, then that is a big problem because it is wrong. I don't understand your criticism of this part of the article.
Second:
quote:
I can’t think of one law of Moses, Christ, or Paul that I have not, in principle, broken or left undone. There’s no way I can respond, “Patience? Done. Don’t worry? Done. Love enemy? Done.” If the checklist is important, mine is a mess.
You accuse De Haan of teaching false doctrine because this passage places Moses and Paul "on the same level as Christ". This conclusion confuses me. Every pastor, teacher, preacher, minister, priest, rabbi, and reverend I have ever known categorizes the Bible into various segments: the Torah is called "the Law" or "the Law of Moses", Jesus presented the gospel, and the letters penned by Paul are called the "Pauline Epistles". Why are you so hung up on this? I don't understand how you conclude that De Haan is somehow defaming the Famous One.
Jesus Himself "gives props" to Moses:
And Jesus said to him, See that you say nothing to anyone, but go, show yourself to the priest and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a proof to them. - Mt 8:4, Mr 1:44, Lu 5:14
He said to them, Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. - Mt 19:8
For Moses said, Honor your father and your mother; and, Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die. - Mr 7:10
And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? - Mr 12:26
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself. - Lu 24:27
Then he said to them, These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled. - Lu 24:44
Has not Moses given you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill me? - Joh 7:19
Moses gave you circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath. - Joh 7:22
If on the Sabbath a man receives circumcision, so that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because on the Sabbath I made a man's whole body well? - Joh 7:23
Other NT writers make the same distinction:
And when the time came for their purification according to the Law of Moses, they brought him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord - Lu 2:22
But Abraham said, They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them. - Lu 16:29
He said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead. - Lu 16:31
Philip found Nathanael and said to him, We have found him of whom Moses in the Law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. - Joh 1:45
Moses said, The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. - Acts 3:22
I could go on, but I think I have thoroughly presented my case. Are you sure you don't want to retract your accusations?
I could go on, but I am late for work! I hope you reconsider your objections after reading the article a little more carefully.
In Christ,
Matt
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: Mart De Haan is no heretic!!!! - 7/11/2008 11:23:09 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6386
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
Why did he not simply preach the Gospel of Christ, the grace of God, and the Person and finished work of Christ? Why did he ramble on and on about listening and obedience, when neither listening nor obedience can bring a sinner to Heaven?
Because there is a whole new generation coming up that no longer speaks evangelese. It's important to be able to communicate old truths with new words and phrases. Not everyone can be reached with the same imagery - I think it's smart to mix things up a bit and try out new phrasings to communicate the same truths to different people with different backgrounds. It's nothing different than Paul did in trying to be all things to all people that some might be saved.
I wasn't at all surprised that this escaped notmycity, but was shocked that Ezra agreed with him.
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RE: Mart De Haan is no heretic!!!! - 7/11/2008 11:30:52 AM
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GroupW
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Joined: 11/16/2007
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Yes, but I guess I can understand in a way - if you're flipping through something quickly and someone uses some words you're not familiar with it can make you uncomfortable.
Maybe that's not so bad - maybe that initial discomfort level is a good thing. It's good to be on your toes. There's just that second step of trying to understand what someone meant by using unfamiliar words. You have to put your initial biases away for a moment to be able to do that, and it's not always easy.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... - 7/12/2008 6:57:10 AM
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tony.nz
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Joined: 7/6/2005
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quote:
Using your definition of heresy (which is perfectly acceptable, though rather narrower than how Scripture defines it), the fact that de Haan speaks of "following instructions" to get to Heaven (and you can't deny that that is exactly what he did in this article) is indeed an attack on the nature and character of God.
Actually, yes I do deny that this is what he did. I think that you have totally misconstrued his whole message. Most of us have read it and understood that he was using the "Houston" system of "following instructions" as a counterpoint, to illustrate how not to attempt to reach heaven. His whole point was that if we attempt to approach our salvation in this way, we are soon in serious trouble.
Furthermore, even if he had been advocating this legalistic approach (which he most certainly was not), I would still have difficulty seeing it as an attack on the nature and character of God. Rather,I would see it as a misunderstanding of the nature and character of God, one that is very common, even perhaps universal, amongst non-Christians of all hues. I do not personally believe that a person can inadvertantly blaspheme God through a lack of correct understanding.
Neither do I accept that by referring to "the laws of Moses, Christ, and Paul", that he was putting them on the same level. "The law of Moses" is a common term for referring to the Old Testament laws. The reference to Christ and Paul in this context, clearly refers to supposed laws that people may alternatively distil from the Gospels and the books of the Apostles, respectively. And, in fact the words of Moses and Paul, to the extent they were Holy Spirit inspired and incorporated in scripture, are the Word of God. The words of Christ were incapsulated by the Gospel writers in exactly the same way, were they not? This obviously says nothing of the fact that Moses and Paul were men as we are, whereas Christ is by nature Lord and God. The most criticism I could level at the author, was that his words could have been chosen a bit more carefully. But was he advocating the worship of Moses or Paul? Certainly not!
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RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... - 7/18/2008 12:14:25 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 766
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: online
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So.... a thread accusing a long time teacher and pretty solid brother in Christ of being a heretic, but when those accusations are shown to be false the thread just fades away. No apologies, no retractions, nothing. Interesting.
Rush Limbaugh refers to tactics like this used by the "drive-by media": drive in, shoot things up, then off into the sunset and never look back. I understand this coming from the liberal mainstream mass media, but it is rather discouraging when it happens in the Church.
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... - 7/20/2008 8:19:37 PM
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BelovedHandMaiden
Posts: 4134
Joined: 3/17/2007
From: Tennessee
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
Wow... this is heretical? That is just a completely incorrect assessment.
Ezra: I have enjoyed many of your posts over the years and have joined my voice with yours in many threads, but I have to part ways with you on this one: you are just flatly wrong and I don't understand where you are coming from.
The point of this article is to illuminate the error of legalism and to exhort those Christians who think their salvation is earned by their adherence to a list of do's and do not's.
Accusing someone as false doctrine because they distinguished laws as coming through Paul and Moses and dared mention their names in the same sentence of Jesus? This is supremely petty and superbly short-sighted.
Maybe some people that have incorrectly reached this conclusion have some legalism issues to deal with themselves, I don't know. Tony is right about the gnats, because this is a wise article that makes an excellent point.
Amen! I think Dr. DeHaan is a wonderful teacher and certainly deserving of, at the very least, our respect.
_____________________________
How beautiful are the feet of those who bring the good news of Jesus!
<--Death Star pumpkin!
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RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... - 7/21/2008 12:38:22 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5643
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are getting their sweaters ready....
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
So.... a thread accusing a long time teacher and pretty solid brother in Christ of being a heretic, but when those accusations are shown to be false the thread just fades away. No apologies, no retractions, nothing. Interesting.
Rush Limbaugh refers to tactics like this used by the "drive-by media": drive in, shoot things up, then off into the sunset and never look back. I understand this coming from the liberal mainstream mass media, but it is rather discouraging when it happens in the Church.
Great analogy. Shame on those that were proven wrong and their now found silence.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... - 7/21/2008 2:34:28 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1200
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
So.... a thread accusing a long time teacher and pretty solid brother in Christ of being a heretic, but when those accusations are shown to be false the thread just fades away. No apologies, no retractions, nothing. Interesting.
Rush Limbaugh refers to tactics like this used by the "drive-by media": drive in, shoot things up, then off into the sunset and never look back. I understand this coming from the liberal mainstream mass media, but it is rather discouraging when it happens in the Church.
Great analogy. Shame on those that were proven wrong and their now found silence.
Or perhaps the points were already shared and we not to further debate?
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... - 7/21/2008 2:46:19 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5643
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are getting their sweaters ready....
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
So.... a thread accusing a long time teacher and pretty solid brother in Christ of being a heretic, but when those accusations are shown to be false the thread just fades away. No apologies, no retractions, nothing. Interesting.
Rush Limbaugh refers to tactics like this used by the "drive-by media": drive in, shoot things up, then off into the sunset and never look back. I understand this coming from the liberal mainstream mass media, but it is rather discouraging when it happens in the Church.
Great analogy. Shame on those that were proven wrong and their now found silence.
Or perhaps the points were already shared and we not to further debate?
If the allegations were proven to be wrong, then yes there nothing further to debate. But perhaps an apology would be in order?
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... - 7/21/2008 2:55:50 PM
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BerianAardvark
Posts: 371
Joined: 5/10/2008
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quote:
NMC: Or perhaps the points were already shared and we not to further debate?
quote:
earthless: If the allegations were proven to be wrong, then yes there nothing further to debate. But perhaps an apology would be in order?
Considering the tendency of NMC and his ilk to "state his points" then, ignoring any and all scripture or reasoned argument to the contrary, consider the matter settled.
I suspect that NMC expects US to do any apologizing, notice he said his points were STATED, not PROVEN. Proof matters little to him, about as much as context when dealing in scripture.
Tim
_____________________________
The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... - 7/21/2008 3:35:29 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1200
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BerianAardvark
I suspect that NMC expects US to do any apologizing...
Thanks, but I have no such expectations. Again, Ezra listed concerns that we both shared over DeHaan’s article. No need to repeat them.
Thank you...
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... - 7/21/2008 3:46:16 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5643
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are getting their sweaters ready....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: BerianAardvark
I suspect that NMC expects US to do any apologizing...
Thanks, but I have no such expectations. Again, Ezra listed concerns that we both shared over DeHaan’s article. No need to repeat them.
Thank you...
So nothing you alleged was proven false?
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... - 7/22/2008 12:15:08 PM
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kmangel
Posts: 480
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
No amount of "instructions" can get a sinner to Heaven. It is only by God's grace (His character) and through the Person and finished work of Christ (in whom His nature is revealed as Love, Light, and Life) that any man can enter into, or see, the Kingdom of God.
What I got out of DeHaan's article was God's grace. Funny how people can read the same thing and conclude differently what is being said. Kind of like all the cults in the world professing to have the "correct" interpretation of the Bible.
It did disturb me at first when I read the title of this thread--the heresy via Mart DeHaan. I'm SO glad to not find any heresy after all. It would be like suddenly discovering my church's pastor preaching heresy. I would be very disappointed and dismayed, to say the least.
_____________________________
Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.
--Mark Twain
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RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... - 7/22/2008 12:44:59 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1200
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kmangel
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
No amount of "instructions" can get a sinner to Heaven. It is only by God's grace (His character) and through the Person and finished work of Christ (in whom His nature is revealed as Love, Light, and Life) that any man can enter into, or see, the Kingdom of God.
What I got out of DeHaan's article was God's grace. Funny how people can read the same thing and conclude differently what is being said. Kind of like all the cults in the world professing to have the "correct" interpretation of the Bible.
It did disturb me at first when I read the title of this thread--the heresy via Mart DeHaan. I'm SO glad to not find any heresy after all. It would be like suddenly discovering my church's pastor preaching heresy. I would be very disappointed and dismayed, to say the least.
We used to support RBC (for about ten years), but we noticed false doctrines and practices creeping in several years ago and stopped our support. It was very sad for us to have to withdraw.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... - 7/22/2008 1:19:45 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 827
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VJD Tropical,
quote:
Disregards God's judgement and law ... only grace and love ... it's somewhat like if God loves us then we can do whatever we want to ( or sort of ) or that love is the ony thing that leads us to the Cross or repentance ... too much love and we will get an emergent church type of gospel and too much law then we get wesboro baptist church ... we need both
You maybe could answer why Paul wrote about love in his first letter to the Corinthians? Why he stated certian things like even faith was above love.
Ezra,
quote:
Once again, more false doctrine and more seeds of confusion. Is this man talking about the saved or the lost? Is he talking about those filled with the Spirit or those devoid of the Spirit? Does he even know the difference? A child of God is neither unwilling nor unable to faithfully obey God, since God gives him/her a new heart and a new spirit, and God also gives that saint the gift of the Holy Spirit, who enables the saint to be obedient.
Certainly, the child of God will be overwhelmed by God's grace, patience, and forgiveness, but this talk about "our unwillingness and inability" applies to sinners devoid of the Holy Spirit, not saints within whom Christ dwells.
So you are perfect now. Remember what John wrote in his letter. If you say you have no sin then you have lied to yourself and Jesus is not around you. (paraphase) And to top it off you are even better that Paul who wrote that he wreastled with his sin nature.
Not mycity,
quote:
Isa 30:8-10
8 Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:
9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits..
What laws were they breaking in Isaiah which had the Prophetsaying this to them? Could it have been they failed in the love department. Like unconcerned about the oppress, widows, orphans, and the poor.
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RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... - 7/22/2008 1:28:22 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 827
Joined: 4/4/2006
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Ezra,
quote:
Now, if a preacher or teacher does not have clarity on such a simple and fundamental truth, why should we believe anything that he has to say? He is self-deceived and also deceving others. Scripture says that "Many deceivers are gone out into the world". Therefore we must constantly be on our guard against false doctrine and outright heresy.
Watch what you say or write. For you could have fallen into the same category that you have put Mr. Dehaan.
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RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... - 7/22/2008 1:51:28 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1200
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Not mycity,
quote:
Isa 30:8-10
8 Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:
9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits..
What laws were they breaking in Isaiah which had the Prophetsaying this to them? Could it have been they failed in the love department. Like unconcerned about the oppress, widows, orphans, and the poor.
Sounds like another topic, and regarding love, it is written:
Phil 1:8-9
8 For God is my witness, how greatly I long for you all with the affection of Jesus Christ.
9 AND THIS I PRAY, THAT YOUR LOVE MAY ABOUND STILL MORE AND MORE IN KNOWLEDGE AND ALL DISCERNMENT...
(NKJ)
If you want to know what this means, please PM me.
BTW, if “Christian” organizations/churches were truly concerned about “ widows, orphans, and the poor”, perhaps they wouldn’t allocate 90% of received offerings to the funding of buildings, hirelings, etc. Just some food for thought.
Thank you.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... - 7/22/2008 2:01:36 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2363
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
So what then is our part in the mission? It’s important to understand the spirit behind the commandments of the Bible. When the Old and New Testaments urge us to “obey” God, the first meaning of the original Hebrew and Greek words is often “to listen” or “to give attention to.” For instance, the Hebrew word that frequently shows up as “obey” in English Bibles is translated “hear” in the famous, “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!” (Deuteronomy 6:4).
More nonsense and more misleading teaching. "Hear , O Israel" is literally "Hear, O Israel", and what Israel must hear is a proclamation about the unity within the triune Godhead, and then obey the greatest commandment. But to dismiss obedience as simply "listening" is to totally misrepresent God's truths. Scripture says "But be ye DOERS of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves" (Jas. 1:22). It appears that de Haan is not only self-deceived, but deceiving others.
Every point you made to accused this man of heretical teachings was taken completely out of context or was just plain WRONG! One example from above. The Hebrew word 'shema' translated 'hear' in Duet. 6:4 is quite often translated 'obey' in other verses. This author was absolutely correct in his assertion. Additionally, this author didn't dismiss obedience as simply "listening", that is a jump you made and not one that this author made. He was simply trying to demonstrate why we are to obey.
Du. 6:4 "Hear (shema), O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord"
Du. 21:18 "If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son (shema), which will not obey the voice of his father"
Du. 21:20 "and they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey (shema) our voice;"
Is. 50:10 "Who is among you that feareth the Lord, That obeyeth (Shama) the voice of his servant"
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RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... - 7/22/2008 2:11:21 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2363
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
No Christian has the right to put Moses and Paul on the same level as Christ. They did not, and could not, enunciate any spiritual laws on their own. All they could do (and did) is present God's laws to men as God directed them.
Now, if a preacher or teacher does not have clarity on such a simple and fundamental truth, why should we believe anything that he has to say? He is self-deceived and also deceiving others. Scripture says that "Many deceivers are gone out into the world". Therefore we must constantly be on our guard against false doctrine and outright heresy.
To take what this author said, and imply that he was saying that Moses, Christ, and Paul were on the same level is simply ludicrous. All orthodox Christians recognize the supremacy of Christ i.e. HE IS GOD, and yet the term 'Mosaic Law' is a very common theological term used my orthodox Christians. The term is used because this is the Law that God gave through Moses, not because it was Moses' Law! In the same way this author recognizes that there was Law that God gave us through Moses', Law that came to us through the incarnate Christ, and Law that God gave us through Paul. Recognizing that fact is not the same as implying that all three are the "same level".
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RE: Here’s a good dose of heresy via Mart De Haan... - 7/22/2008 2:43:28 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 10567
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
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I must confess until I started reading this thread I had no idea who Mart De Haan was. I did carefully read the article linked to in the OP and I can find no problem with what is said. The author never said Moses, Paul, and Jesus were on the same level. He is talking about the Law's of God, not the messenger used to deliver them. In this light, the laws would be equal. They were all from God. I am going to research some other articles written by this author but as of right now I have to agree with Benelchi. There is nothing Heretical about the article and we had better be careful labeling people as a heretic.
_____________________________
Don't take life here to seriously. No one gets out alive.
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