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Do You Know What Courting Is...Versus Dating? - 7/6/2008 9:04:02 PM
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DansHopeandLove
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For those who do know the difference, pls elaborate so that others can be spared much of the pain some of us have suffered as a result of not knowing!
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RE: Do You Know What Courting Is...Versus Dating? - 7/6/2008 9:45:57 PM
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ChoirDJ
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My guess would be that "dating" is going out with a person (or select few persons) in order to determine if one of them is marriage material. With "courtint", you have narrowed your focus to the one person you are pursuing for marriage. I suppose you could say the same of person who is only interested in dating one person but courtship is the next level as in more official (i.e., I'm no longer just dating this person, this person is my boyfriend/girlfriend and I would like to marry this person).
There's been some pretty interesting threads here in regards to the term "date" and how people understand it to mean different things.
Hope This Helps
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"Sin will take you further than you intended to go, keep you there longer than you intended to stay, and cost you more than you intended to spend." Got it?
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RE: Do You Know What Courting Is...Versus Dating? - 7/6/2008 11:58:42 PM
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1love1God1way
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I think "courting" is just a term Christians use to make themselves feel less guilty about. . .
. . . something?
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RE: Do You Know What Courting Is...Versus Dating? - 7/7/2008 12:52:59 AM
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blueshadow
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The general idea behind courting is that you are interacting with another person to see if the two of you want to marry each other, and there is some sort of accountability with either parents or trusted adult parental figures of some type. Also, courting tends to involve more time around other people and less time alone, going on dates or whatnot.
Dating generally starts without marriage in mind and is much more focused on the couple themselves when it comes to social interactions. There will be more time with the couple by themselves, less with family/friends in groups.
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RE: Do You Know What Courting Is...Versus Dating? - 7/7/2008 12:37:50 PM
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jaimestarcross
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Dating is going out with someone you're interested in.... courting is the point where you've set your sights on being each others "one and only" and the relationship is going toward a deeper commitment or engagement period to see if you both are indeed suitable for marriage.
I recall someone saying the engagement time is when you engage in getting
to know each others habits, likes/dislikes, strengths/weakness; learn how to problem solve, set realistic goals, interact with family more, and check to see if you both are on the same level of maturity (spiritually and emotionally)
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RE: Do You Know What Courting Is...Versus Dating? - 7/8/2008 7:37:20 AM
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DaveW
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There are many different styles of both courting and dating.
In the courting model I went thru, everything was in the hands of the congregational leaders. If you were caught dating, you were kicked out of the church. They defined dating as any one on one contact with someone of the other gender (unless a family member) without their approval. (yeah - they had control issues)
You had to ask the leadership before even talking to someone you wanted to go out with. Your home group leader and hers and someone from the elder board all had to be in agreement that the match was OK and God's will before she could be made aware that you were interested. She may not even know your name at this point. You had a few months to decide if God wanted you to get married. If so, you had about 6 months to plan a wedding and get married. If God said no to either of you or any of the leaders, it was broken off and you were to have no further contact.
That is my experience with courtship. If you notice, there was absolutely no mention of parents. That was intentional. They were intentionally excluded from this process.
Did I mention this group had control issues?
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RE: Do You Know What Courting Is...Versus Dating? - 7/8/2008 2:13:18 PM
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OneOfHisJewels
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Dave, sounds like you went through a bad courtship experience. I did too, although it was not the fault of a church in my case. Here is the story, copied and pasted from extreme teens:
I don't usually post in X-treme teens, because I'm far from being a teen (36 to be exact), but when I saw this title, I had to pop in. This is addressed to the original poster. When I was very very young, (16/17) I was a big fan of the courtship movement. Until..........I went through it. From ages 17-21, there was this one guy that off and on I was in a courtship with, but it never worked out, you know why? Because he wasn't so crazy about me? Far from it, he was head over heels for me. But I was completely turned off by him. You know why? Because he carried courtship to such an extreme that it was like he enjoyed my dad's company more than mine, and I felt at times that he was just using my dad to manipulate me.
So, I see where you are coming from, and some courtship principles I totally agree with (no physical touching), but I really think instead of courtship OR worldly dating, it is better to do something like christian dating which honors parents' wishes, and involves the parents, but don't ever make the girl feel like she is merely a piece of cattle that you and her dad are bargaining for. If I had not felt like I had been treated that way, I would not be a single woman today, as I did in some ways care for the guy, but being made to feel like I was on object in a store to be discussed and debated over and bargained for completely turned me OFF.
He ended up marrying someone else, but he treated her and her dad with equal value. He asked her dad's permission to date the daughter, but he also made sure he could ask the daughter herself, rather than having the dad ask on her behalf. He said he learned how to do things right with the girl he did marry from all his mistakes with me  .
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RE: Do You Know What Courting Is...Versus Dating? - 7/8/2008 2:19:10 PM
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ChoirDJ
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That's scary DaveW...sounds very similar to how things were done in the previous church I attended.
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"Sin will take you further than you intended to go, keep you there longer than you intended to stay, and cost you more than you intended to spend." Got it?
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RE: Do You Know What Courting Is...Versus Dating? - 7/9/2008 2:28:08 AM
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WaitingforBoaz
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deermousie
There seem to be as many ideas about what courting is as there are people discussing it. Dating is not mentioned in the Bible, and courting doesn't get much print, so God hasn't said much specifically about it. So we have to rely on principles in Scripture rather than specific verses. People of the opposite sex in the Bible were either family members or mates or about to be mates.
My "credentials" are: I dated off and on from age 18 to 38, with some of those years not dating at all. My future-husband and I dated because neither of us had heard of courting, but would have (and did close to it - I'll explain further down).
Dating: people getting together for having fun or looking for a mate. They spend time together, often of a recreational type, and emotional and physical involvement (at least as the world sees it) is expected and can include casual sex.
Courting: two people getting together who see no impediments to marriage but want to find out if they are compatible socially and if God is leading that way. The relationship is under the eye and advice (and sometimes control) of the parents.
My future husband and I spent time together recreationally but always in public or on the front porch in full view of my widowed mother (she lived next door to me). He asked her for permission to marry me before he asked me (I think she would have paid him to marry this 38 yo never-married daughter!  )
We have encouraged our adult daughter to court rather than date, but we have told her it's her choice and we won't force her. She has told us she likes the courtship model but has no problem with talking to a guy over coffee. We have already seen that she can guard her heart and desires to do life God's way. She says if there's a guy she thinks could be "the one" she'll send him to talk to her father, and in the meanwhile she assumes that God will use us to help guide her.
These definitions leave out a whole lot of singles who are followers of Christ and desire to be married or married again.
According to your definition of dating, physical involvement or casual sex would be expected. So as a 42 year old widow, Dating = sin
And according to your definition of courting, my parents whom I have not lived with for over 20 years and live nearly 1000 miles away would need to be directly involved. so courting= impossible or in my opinion borderline rediculous.
There would truly need to be a much broader definition of dating.
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RE: Do You Know What Courting Is...Versus Dating? - 7/9/2008 7:23:34 AM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deermousie
Dating is not mentioned in the Bible, and courting doesn't get much print, so God hasn't said much specifically about it.
Actually, the Bible does not model courtship, it models the Betrothal system, which is much more hardcore. The girl's opinions often did not come into account at all, and the guy's opinion only sometimes.
I think whatever you call it, a person can get to know their future spouse in a God-fearing way, and let Josh Harris write however many books he cares to write.
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RE: Do You Know What Courting Is...Versus Dating? - 7/9/2008 8:04:27 AM
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deermousie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WaitingforBoaz
These definitions leave out a whole lot of singles who are followers of Christ and desire to be married or married again.
Right. I was giving a broad brushstroke picture, not a fully inclusive one that covers every extenuating circumstance.
quote:
According to your definition of dating, physical involvement or casual sex would be expected. So as a 42 year old widow, Dating = sin
"...at least as the world sees it" qualified what I said.
quote:
And according to your definition of courting, my parents whom I have not lived with for over 20 years and live nearly 1000 miles away would need to be directly involved. so courting= impossible or in my opinion borderline rediculous.
Again, I was giving a broad brushstroke definition, not an inclusive one. I also said there were as many ideas about courtship as there were people discussing it, and the Bible doesn't give us specific guidelines. So there are no hard and fast "rules."
quote:
There would truly need to be a much broader definition of dating.
Sure. I'll be interested to see what you come up with. This is an enjoyable discussion.
BTW, I love your name.
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RE: Do You Know What Courting Is...Versus Dating? - 7/9/2008 1:27:37 PM
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edlove50
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I just read a article posted on the home page of Crosswalk.com about dating versus courting. Personally I think courting is preferrable over dating. But be real - in today's world, what single is going to want to court? If I asked a girl out and she says "court me" I'd tell her forget it. Courting has many merits but it is not for today. Witness the interest in courting in the 90's but also that it fizzled out. Singles today would rather hang out in groups which I have witnessed personally. This is good. It gives a girl and guy a chance to get to know one another while surrounded by friends, a protective environment. When dating, each learns how to get along with the other, learns about each others likes and dislikes, learns about who they want to marry(they go out with those with different personalities and you may find you don't like that kind of person), learn how to compromise on what to do for a date (I had a date to take this girl out bowling and she called me to ask if we could stay at her house and watch White Christmas in color. Her parents had a brand new color TV and she wanted to watch it in color, so that's what we did and we had a great time). One can't have it their way all the time. When two people date and break up, it's not sowing the seeds of divorce. The guy who wrote this stated this. There are break ups going on all the time - a person loses their job, two friends end a friendship, etc that don't sow seeds of divorce. I think he is wrong for telling people this. For him to have never dated, to meet his wife and marry her is not the way I would counsel people to go. For him to feel it was God's will to marry this girl he must be so in touch with God that he knows all things God wants him to do according to His will and I don't know anyone like that - they would have to be perfect and no one except Jesus Christ was perfect. But if their marriage is working, the God bless them. Do I know what courting is? Yes and I would advise against unless both parties who want to date agree to it.
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RE: Do You Know What Courting Is...Versus Dating? - 7/9/2008 1:57:00 PM
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3cappuccinosmom
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quote:
But be real - in today's world, what single is going to want to court? If I asked a girl out and she says "court me" I'd tell her forget it.
And she'd probably realize later she should be glad.  Why wouldn't a guy want to treat a woman with respect, restrain himself physically, be accountable to both sets of parents, and get to know her as a potential wife and in the context of family and church relationships rather than a fun time or a warm body? Because that is what a girl who wants to be courted would expect. Anything wrong with that expectation?
If a girl wants to be courted, and a guy refuses, then she is definately lucky to "miss out" on his charms. 
quote:
Courting has many merits but it is not for today. Witness the interest in courting in the 90's but also that it fizzled out.
Says who? There are plenty of young folks still rejecting the dating game and looking for something else. If courting has inherent merits, than the era really doesn't matter.
I married in 2002 (well past "the 90's"), to the only man I ever "went out" with, having never gone farther than one single kiss, and being completely and utterly sure that God intended us to marry.
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RE: Do You Know What Courting Is...Versus Dating? - 7/9/2008 6:41:41 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
Why wouldn't a guy want to treat a woman with respect, restrain himself physically, be accountable to both sets of parents, and get to know her as a potential wife and in the context of family and church relationships rather than a fun time or a warm body? Because that is what a girl who wants to be courted would expect. Anything wrong with that expectation?
If a girl wants to be courted, and a guy refuses, then she is definately lucky to "miss out" on his charms.
There are a lot of dating couples who match your description, and a lot of courting horror stories.
I've heard stories of parents repeatedly agreeing to then breaking off the courtship over minor doctrinal issues. I've heard of parents who "punished" their daughter for "developing feelings without their permission". Now, she hadn't actually done anything with the boy, and he was the kind of boy they would approve of, but simply because she got a little sweet on him without their permission, their punishment was that they had to break off all contact for an entire year, to "test" them. That's just nuts.
There's plenty of reasons to be very wary of parental super-control, especially if you're dealing with a lady who is over 18.
So, if a lad has heard many of these horror stories he may refuse. The "rules" of courting range from insane to much like Christian dating, so the guy may simply decide that never being allowed to be alone with his girlfriend is simply to strict for him. Just because a guy wants to spend time with a girl away from her entire extended family, does not mean that he's going to shag her the first chance he gets.
Not all dating is fun and a warm body. That's a great insult to many here who've dated honorably.
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RE: Do You Know What Courting Is...Versus Dating? - 7/9/2008 7:44:01 PM
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landabee
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quote:
Not all dating is fun and a warm body. That's a great insult to many here who've dated honorably.
Exactly.
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RE: Do You Know What Courting Is...Versus Dating? - 7/9/2008 9:02:35 PM
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Sideways
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There's actually a website called courtship stories, meant to be a very positive collection of stories about courtship. Many of them are actually sweet, but even with all that positivity, there's a boatload of stories that would make a lot of us cringe.
-A grown woman is forbidden by her father to say the love word, because that would cause her to give her heart away to soon, even though she'd been feeling it for months. She and the guy just found code words.
-A woman feels very uncomfortable even calling a guy once courtship is well under way, even though he invites her to call him whenever she wants to talk about her day.
-The day another guy proposes is the first time the woman is ever allowed to sit alone with her beau outside on the family porch. (Again these people are grown adults.)
It goes on and on. A lot of honorable, Christian men, with sincere intentions, just would not want to jump through those kinds of hoops.
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RE: Do You Know What Courting Is...Versus Dating? - 7/10/2008 12:12:13 AM
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deermousie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
And she'd probably realize later she should be glad. Why wouldn't a guy want to treat a woman with respect, restrain himself physically, be accountable to both sets of parents, and get to know her as a potential wife and in the context of family and church relationships rather than a fun time or a warm body? Because that is what a girl who wants to be courted would expect. Anything wrong with that expectation?
If a girl wants to be courted, and a guy refuses, then she is definately lucky to "miss out" on his charms.
Well said, 3Cap.
Our older teen daughter, when shown interest by a guy, told the guy to go talk to her father first. She says if a man wants to marry her he's going to have to pass muster with her parents, his pastor, and court her properly.
And this is a godly young woman who wants to save children in Africa (personally, if she can), has a genius IQ, can discuss philosphy and literature, has a wild sense of humor, and literally turns heads when she walks down the street because she is beautiful (and it hasn't gone to her head). I'm not bragging (much - hey, I'm a mom) but illustrating that courtship isn't without well-thoughtout people supporting it and using it.
Courtship is an appropriate venue for Christian men and women. It doesn't always "work" because people are sinners. God didn't give us any foolproof way to get a good mate; we just have to trust Him and stumble along as best we can based on principles from Scripture. But isn't it better to have 7 heads (prospective couple, both sets of parents and a pastor) looking out in wisdom and love than two inexperienced, sexually mature and frustrated people trying to thread their way through the cultural morass on their own?
We've sacrificed 20 years of our lives, self-plans and finances for our kid's welfare and future. Wouldn't we want to guide her to a good marriage with a godly man and be on the lookout for landmines and selfish creeps? My husband can spot things in guys that I can't see, so she is protected in many ways.
Let me comment to Sideways and others who in the same position - I mean no insult to you and none is intended for a woman or a man who has dated honorably as you have. I dated honorably as well when I was single, and our lives honored God and our dates. I just think courting is safer. I was honorable but not every guy I dated was, and I got creamed a few times because of my inexperience in sorting out the guys who were selfish and dishonorable. I realize courting won't work for people whose parents don't buy into the courting model (mine didn't), and surely there are other extenuating circumstances that courting won't work for. God doesn't say "You must court." We obey God and do our best however it is, and God blesses. I give you my blessing as well, and I apologize for this thread sounding like people who don't court are failing somehow. Obviously, many are not failing. But for many who are or could, courtship can provide some protection. That's all I'm saying.
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RE: Do You Know What Courting Is...Versus Dating? - 7/10/2008 12:42:39 AM
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DrivenbyGod
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I had to delete my last post on this topic, because it appears some are in great favor to it and I jokingly dismissed it. I'll preface my view and say that it is probably beneficial to very young couples that are looking to get married, but once you're in your 30's and up I see it as being ridiculous. I don't need the church or anyone else telling me how to handle my relationships. If I want feedback about a situation I'll ask.
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RE: Do You Know What Courting Is...Versus Dating? - 7/10/2008 8:15:45 AM
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Sideways
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But isn't there a difference between getting input from people you respect like parents and pastor, and the sort of hyper control I described in my last two posts?
Deermousie, does you daughter really believe she's going to have her father telling her when she can use the love word, or that she's never going to be alone with the guy until the day he proposes?
Or is she going to get input from the adults around her, but still spend time with this guy, conducting herself in an honorable manner?
Because sometimes courting sounds like simply respecting the opinions of the family and friends around you, and sometimes it sounds borderline insane because of the power trips that the families go on. And I only gave you some of the stories I've heard; there are many more examples of fathers especially going on crazy, hyper-controlling power trips.
That's what many young men may be thinking of when they think of courting.
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RE: Do You Know What Courting Is...Versus Dating? - 7/10/2008 3:55:16 PM
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deermousie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
But isn't there a difference between getting input from people you respect like parents and pastor, and the sort of hyper control I described in my last two posts?
Absolutely. The Bible says where there are many counselors there is victory. Counselors, not tyrants. Some people are doing it wrong, and their selfishness and control issues I think are what is causing most of the horror stories.
quote:
Deermousie, does you daughter really believe she's going to have her father telling her when she can use the love word, or that she's never going to be alone with the guy until the day he proposes?
Or is she going to get input from the adults around her, but still spend time with this guy, conducting herself in an honorable manner?
I just asked her and she will answer this herself. I'm not telling her what to say.
quote:
Because sometimes courting sounds like simply respecting the opinions of the family and friends around you, and sometimes it sounds borderline insane because of the power trips that the families go on. And I only gave you some of the stories I've heard; there are many more examples of fathers especially going on crazy, hyper-controlling power trips.
That's what many young men may be thinking of when they think of courting.
Yeah, I think some of it has been insane.
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RE: Do You Know What Courting Is...Versus Dating? - 7/10/2008 5:09:21 PM
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ElsieMagpie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
But isn't there a difference between getting input from people you respect like parents and pastor, and the sort of hyper control I described in my last two posts?
Deermousie, does you daughter really believe she's going to have her father telling her when she can use the love word, or that she's never going to be alone with the guy until the day he proposes?
Or is she going to get input from the adults around her, but still spend time with this guy, conducting herself in an honorable manner?
Hi, Deermousie's daughter here. I don't even want to go down the road of "How much contact or sappy professions of love can we get away with?" Right now I have to get my bachelor's degree, and I've so far shown myself incapable of simultaneously running a house and doing schoolwork. So if any guy wants me he'll have to hang on and at least the wait will weed out the impatient ones. When I'm in a position to marry, I'll spend time with any suitor to get to know him, continually asking myself "Would I touch my brother like this? Is anything at all, like the way I'm sitting, making it tough for him to keep his mind out of the gutter?" Not only should I ask his friends and family and elders what he's like, but I should be asking my own if they feel all right with the match. I know how much I should rely on advice in anything, not just relationships. My feelings are the last thing on the list; they only get in the way of judging character.
My father will not be telling me when to use the L word. He will be waiting with his own test after the poor sap has passed my test. Hopefully, Dad's test is just like mine, only he's better at grading than I probably ever will be. (If Dad and I disagree on what a husband should be, you can bet we'll be discussing it with our elders so they can help me decide whether to defer or respectfully differ.)
I'll probably be known as "ice woman" by everyone in town, and I may estrange some friends with different standards, but who says I'm entitled to romance? There is nothing more insulting than a Christian man saying he wants to be only my boyfriend. It says "I like you as a person, but I don't quite want to marry you so we can have sex. I am a male and all, but you're just that ugly." I'd rather be single than have some half-interested man hanging around because his friends have been calling him a nerd or because he likes my cooking, or he wants to marry me but he's afraid of marriage. Considering my personality, men could take advantage of me very easily. So I think it's a privilege, rather than a limitation, to rely on the judgement of everyone I can get my hands on. Call it courtship if you like.
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