RE: Being a Christian and being around people who drink.
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RE: Being a Christian and being around people who drink. - 7/13/2008 3:59:56 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5693
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Okay, RC. You know I respect you greatly; however, let me preface what I am about to write by reminding you of that fact.
But that whole chapter is about things sacrificed to idols. How can it legitimately be stretched to also take in consuming alcohol and going to bars?
Yes, I am uncomfortable about going into bars; no, I don't consume alcoholic beverages (although I asked to taste tequila the other day, just to see what it tasted like, and the person I asked refused); but do our feelings and/or health issues and/or taste preferences about alcohol consumption and bar-attending make doctrine?
Messiah made wine (wine, even though one of the main preachers at the old church taught that he absolutely did not) at the wedding. He consumed wine at the holy day observances. The bar did not exist in His time, while the alcohol-serving inns did, but He was definitely accused of being a winebibber. I just do not see how these things can be made into a biblical issue.
Abiyah, in my humble opinion if a new believer or an unlearned believer thinks it is a sin to drink; then it is a sin to him to drink. (That applies to anything ones sincerely believes is a sin)
If I as Pastor am going in a bar to drink and this mans sees this and gets confused enough to pull back from the faith because the Pastor is sinning, then I have cause him to stumble, no matter how innocently I caused it; I caused it. And hey; I will be held accountable for it.
I do believe that is what Paul was referrencing in the passage we are speaking about.
It is not a sin to drink alcoholic beverages.
It is a sin to cause one to stumble no matter how we cause it.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Being a Christian and being around people who drink. - 7/13/2008 5:34:37 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2001
Joined: 8/30/2007
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Found this quote on another thread and i feel it's quite appropriate for this one here:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Little_1
"People want 'salvation from sin' without 'separation from sin' but you can't have justification and ignore sanctification!"
It sums up what I have been trying to say, ever so eloquently.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Being a Christian and being around people who drink. - 7/13/2008 5:42:16 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jet_A_Jockey
lets clear this up, I never said that the only purpose in going to a bar was for mission work. I was trying to show that while being there it is a great opportunity to witness to someone, and I don't care if someone disagrees with that, as long as God knows what is done. I used to frequent bars when I played competitive billiards. There are plenty of people who play this, as well as competitive darts. Do they all drink? Not really. Do they all carouse and have a reckless and crazy time? No, most have a job to get to in the morning (or in my case, right after the competition).
I realize that no matter what I say, I won't live up to your standard of what 'christians' should do. And honestly..I'm okay with that. Take care.
Making your way in the world today
Takes everything you've got;
Taking a break from all your worries
Sure would help a lot.
Wouldn't you like to get away?
Where everybody knows your name,
And they're always glad you came;
Where everybody knows your name,
And they're always glad you came;
John
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RE: Being a Christian and being around people who drink. - 7/13/2008 5:54:52 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3646
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
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I understand, RC, that we have differing opinions on this. No problem.
But how long should we continue to coddle new believers' misunderstandings of the Scriptures? How long shall we continue to kowtow to their ideas of sin that are in opposition to what the Scriptures clearly say? When are they going to grow up? Should the whole congregation suddenly change all their usual non-sinful ways in order to accommodate every new convert's mistaken ideas?
Would it not be better for all to educate the new believers, to tutor them often and consistently until they get to the point at which they are not looking for fault in their "older" believers? Shouldn't we be concentrating on teaching them about the love of G-d mixed with the ideas of what sin actually is?
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Being a Christian and being around people who drink. - 7/13/2008 5:57:02 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 566
Joined: 7/17/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Found this quote on another thread and i feel it's quite appropriate for this one here:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Little_1
"People want 'salvation from sin' without 'separation from sin' but you can't have justification and ignore sanctification!"
It sums up what I have been trying to say, ever so eloquently.
I am not sure what your point is here? Obviously, one can experience sanctification and go to bars. Or one can go to bars and not experience sanctification. It depends on the individual.
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RE: Being a Christian and being around people who drink. - 7/13/2008 5:59:46 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 566
Joined: 7/17/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Making your way in the world today
Takes everything you've got;
Taking a break from all your worries
Sure would help a lot.
Wouldn't you like to get away?
Where everybody knows your name,
And they're always glad you came;
Where everybody knows your name,
And they're always glad you came;
John
Like I said, for some Christians a bar can be a fine place to fellowship.
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RE: Being a Christian and being around people who drink. - 7/13/2008 6:11:47 PM
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humbleinspirit
Posts: 18070
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Just Outside of Boston
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kath
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
Making your way in the world today
Takes everything you've got;
Taking a break from all your worries
Sure would help a lot.
Wouldn't you like to get away?
Where everybody knows your name,
And they're always glad you came;
Where everybody knows your name,
And they're always glad you came;
I'm not sure if y'all are making fun of it or not, but I think it's pretty sad when 'everyone' knows your name at the bar and no one bothers to take the time to know you at church, that so many people in churches have a superficial relationship with other members.
Yeah, that is just the sad case of some churches. I heard that some people even go to AA just for the fellowship.
_____________________________
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RE: Being a Christian and being around people who drink. - 7/13/2008 6:16:50 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3646
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
Status: offline
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We have whole congregations full of baby believers who wallow in their infantile ignorance. America, especially, has an overabundance of congregations that rely upon feelings and/or dreams and/or falling down and/or other incredible silliness, while Messiah stands, calling and knocking at their Laodicean doors.
But the church can't open the door, because they -- surrounded by velvet, their gold-plated bangles, and their glass jewels -- lie dead inside, the chill of death cooling their naked corpses. He offers them pure gold, refined, and glistening garments -- even salve for their diseased spiritual eyesight -- but they are too busy being dead, in their fake religiosity and demand for entertainment, to hear Messiah's call.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Being a Christian and being around people who drink. - 7/13/2008 7:46:39 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2001
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
Making your way in the world today
Takes everything you've got;
Taking a break from all your worries
Sure would help a lot.
Wouldn't you like to get away?
Where everybody knows your name,
And they're always glad you came;
Where everybody knows your name,
And they're always glad you came;
I'm not sure if y'all are making fun of it or not, but I think it's pretty sad when 'everyone' knows your name at the bar and no one bothers to take the time to know you at church, that so many people in churches have a superficial relationship with other members.
_____________________________
not making fun of it at all. It just struck me really funny that John typed out the words to the theme song from Cheers.
Don't really know what the indifference of church members has to do with Christians hanging out in bars... The fellowship isn't really any better if you attend a church that doesn't know you. I suppose they could be quite similar in that the lonely seek the lonely?
quote:
I heard that some people even go to AA just for the fellowship.
It's just not the same type of fellowship.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Being a Christian and being around people who drink. - 7/13/2008 7:51:01 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3646
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
Status: offline
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Well, RC, again I understand that we disagree.
I do not believe, however, that the Scriptures brought up here for the purpose of restraining people from wine were placed in the Bible in order for the people to be held hostage by those infantile in their understandings. Part of being a believer is about freedom in Him.
If some immature one in the L-rd asked me if I thought drinking wine was a sin, although I do not drink it, I would answer that it is not. Why mince the truth? The Bible is clear that drinking wine is not sin.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Being a Christian and being around people who drink. - 7/13/2008 8:19:52 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 566
Joined: 7/17/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Drinking in and of itself is not the debated topic here. No one is or has claimed that drinking is a sin. How much and to what degree the drinking is done is not debated either.
The location of where one chooses to imbibe is up for grabs though. What we are really debating is the witnessing aspect. Is hanging out in a bar conducive to Christian conduct and lifestyle, should Christians be hanging out in bars and setting an example to younger church members or family, youth in general that bar hopping is an ok past time. You know, that God shines His face down favorably upon it. 
Since a bar is a place where alcoholic beverages are served, and Christians are permitted to consume alcoholic beverages, then what is it about a bar that makes it undesirable for a Christian?
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RE: Being a Christian and being around people who drink. - 7/13/2008 8:32:38 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2001
Joined: 8/30/2007
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Oh let's see, lust, pride, gluttony,drunkenness, sexual sin.
I know I probably sound like Trudy Prudy here, these are not behaviors I want to teach my lids or their friends. I don't want to be this type of example to anyone. I don't think going to bars makes me a "cool" parent or somebody so and so can talk to. I understand all to well the desires that come with hanging out in bars. Those memories are not times I am proud of. I don't recommend the fellowshipping their because a single thought can give birth to a sin one will regret for the rest of their life. Holding captive every thought is not as easy as it sounds in settings like a bar. If we a re to focus on everything that is lovely, everything that is pure and noble, what would we be doing in a bar to begin with?
If we are there to drive the regular drunk home, aren't we really doing him a disservice by supporting his drunken behavior rather than reinforcing that he might consider looking at his drinking problem? If we are there to comfort the lonely, well, we just need to find a new spot. If we are there because our church is lonely, we need to find a new church!
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Being a Christian and being around people who drink. - 7/13/2008 9:02:44 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 566
Joined: 7/17/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Oh let's see, lust, pride, gluttony,drunkenness, sexual sin.
You can commit those sins at the local China Buffet, are you suggesting that Christians avoid China Buffets as well?
Also, must one commit those sins if they go to a bar?
quote:
I know I probably sound like Trudy Prudy here, these are not behaviors I want to teach my lids or their friends. I don't want to be this type of example to anyone. I don't think going to bars makes me a "cool" parent or somebody so and so can talk to. I understand all to well the desires that come with hanging out in bars. Those memories are not times I am proud of. I don't recommend the fellowshipping their because a single thought can give birth to a sin one will regret for the rest of their life. Holding captive every thought is not as easy as it sounds in settings like a bar. If we a re to focus on everything that is lovely, everything that is pure and noble, what would we be doing in a bar to begin with?
Perhaps you and I frequent different bars?
quote:
If we are there to drive the regular drunk home, aren't we really doing him a disservice by supporting his drunken behavior rather than reinforcing that he might consider looking at his drinking problem?
In other words, we should let him drive home drunk?
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RE: Being a Christian and being around people who drink. - 7/13/2008 9:35:34 PM
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Kath
Posts: 17142
Joined: 2/28/2005
Status: online
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Has the OP abandoned us? I'm curious what kind of bar he is talking about, like a sports bar with the mega tv, or a place to shoot pool or darts? Or just a corner dive. I know he's signed in today but hasn't posted since he started this thing cept for one post.
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RE: Being a Christian and being around people who drink. - 7/13/2008 10:00:31 PM
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ddave12000
Posts: 77
Joined: 3/7/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
I see the same circles going around and around. It still looks like Christians who want to participate in the bar scene, will find a "worthy excuse" such as witnessing to justify there reasoning for being there.
I'm one who has posted it's okay for believers to go to a bar, but I've never used that excuse. If the opportunity arises, then sure we should use it, but that's the same as anywhere we go. I enjoy going to bars as a place of fellowship, a place to hear live music, and perform live music (yikes! a christian playing music in a bar!!! I wonder how you will respond to that?)
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Denominational or not, a bar is not a place a Christian should be hanging out.
BTW, I have never heard of any missionary journeys taking place in a bar.
Going to a bar is a choice. Either one chooses to live a life honoring God in all that they do or they don't. Bar hopping is not honoring God IMHO.
What's interesting is that earlier in this thread you were very clear that you were only speaking for yourself, but now you are clearly speaking for us all. The simple fact is, the bible, nor Jesus forbid going to a bar, so you should stop placing your own standards above God's. Are you suggesting you are better than God?
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RE: Being a Christian and being around people who drink. - 7/13/2008 10:34:06 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2001
Joined: 8/30/2007
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I don't believe Christians should be in bars at all. Choice is choice. I don't have to answer for your actions....
Under worldiness in my Bible are these (vs38-39). The rest seemed to be fitting.
Mat 24:38 "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
Mat 24:39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Mat 24:40 "Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.
Mat 24:41 "Two women {will be} grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.
Mat 24:42 "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.
Mat 24:43 "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.
Mat 24:44 "For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think {He will.}
Mat 24:45 "Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time?
Mat 24:46 "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.
Mat 24:47 "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
Mat 24:48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,'
Mat 24:49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards;
Mat 24:50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect {him} and at an hour which he does not know,
Mat 24:51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
You see the bar is a place of worldliness. How do i die to self if I keep clothing myself in the world rather than righteousness?
I have to give up me in order for there to be more of Him.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Being a Christian and being around people who drink. - 7/13/2008 10:41:01 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2001
Joined: 8/30/2007
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I can make the choice of where I choose to go and spend time or not. Nothing judgmental or hypocritical about that, nothing at all.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Being a Christian and being around people who drink. - 7/13/2008 10:47:32 PM
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ddave12000
Posts: 77
Joined: 3/7/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
I can make the choice of where I choose to go and spend time or not. Nothing judgmental or hypocritical about that, nothing at all.
yes, and you never go to a place of "worldiness" as you've described? Every establishment you go to is of proven christian character? I find that hard to believe.
I choose where I go also, and I do my best to choose carefully where I go. Sometimes I choose to go to bars. It's not to participate in debauchery, or drunkeness, or cruising for sex (I'm happily married), or any of the like. Sometimes I go there to fellowship with some of my friends, sometimes my wife and I meet some friends there. I can understand if your past experiences in bars were terrible (and from what you've said I can imagine they were), but that doesn't mean that those are the only things people can do there. Where I live, there are a lot of nice bars, they aren't all run down, seedy holes in the wall. Even I wouldn't want to go to those.
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