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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/7/2008 4:56:06 PM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
So you disagree with glaudys that a soul distinguishes an animal from a human?
Before such a distinction can be made one must first demonstrate that modern humans have a soul.
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/7/2008 4:57:00 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Before such a distinction can be made one must first demonstrate that modern humans have a soul.
Do you think humans have a soul?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/7/2008 5:02:42 PM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Do you think humans have a soul?
If a soul is a supernatural entity that lives on after death? No. Given the long list of possible definitions for "soul" I think someone should give a concrete example and demonstrate that humans have this feature.
I do believe that James Brown has soul, but I don't think that is what we are talking about.
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/7/2008 5:06:56 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
If a soul is a supernatural entity that lives on after death? No. Given the long list of possible definitions for "soul" I think someone should give a concrete example and demonstrate that humans have this feature.
I do believe that James Brown has soul, but I don't think that is what we are talking about.
Well, do you believe humans are persons? That is entities with minds, a will, and an awareness of self?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/7/2008 5:11:58 PM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Well, do you believe humans are persons? That is entities with minds, a will, and an awareness of self?
I do believe that humans are a sentient species, and I also believe that there are other sentient species such as chimps, gorillas, orangutans, bonobos, and some cetaceans.
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/7/2008 5:13:07 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
I do believe that humans are a sentient species, and I also believe that there are other sentient species such as chimps, gorillas, orangutans, bonobos, and some cetaceans.
That wasn't what I asked - do you believe humans have a mind, a will, and an awareness of self?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/7/2008 5:18:40 PM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
That wasn't what I asked - do you believe humans have a mind, a will, and an awareness of self?
Yes, humans are sentient.
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/7/2008 5:27:51 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Yes, humans are sentient.
That's not what I asked - are they self-aware and able to make choices and have beliefs and opinions apart from genetics and experience?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/7/2008 5:29:43 PM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
That's not what I asked - are they self-aware and able to make choices and have beliefs and opinions apart from genetics and experience?
No. Humans rely on genetics and experience for self-awareness, making choices, beliefs, and opinions.
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/7/2008 5:32:50 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
No. Humans rely on genetics and experience for self-awareness, making choices, beliefs, and opinions.
So that opinion is the product of your genetics and experiences?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/7/2008 5:44:01 PM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
So that opinion is the product of your genetics and experiences?
HAHA, I like where you are goin' with this Jhud.
Yup, according to an evolutionist, I'm just a product of uncontrollable evolutionary genetics, which means I'm capable of believing anything I want without being wrong. Who really cares if I believe in evolution? Who would really care if I murdered someone? After all, its just my DNA telling me to do these things, so why do evolutionists get so fed up with YECs and Creationists? Were all victims of evolution, our genes are are what shapes our thoughts, our morals are not absolutes, and no one is truly "wrong", so why can't we all just get along?! 
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/7/2008 5:47:50 PM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
So that opinion is the product of your genetics and experiences?
Yes.
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/7/2008 5:50:19 PM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
Yup, according to an evolutionist, I'm just a product of uncontrollable evolutionary genetics, which means I'm capable of believing anything I want without being wrong.
Obviously, you are capable of believing anything you want.
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Who really cares if I believe in evolution?
Your employer, if you are a biologist.
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Who would really care if I murdered someone?
The family of the victim.
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After all, its just my DNA telling me to do these things, so why do evolutionists get so fed up with YECs and Creationists?
It's also your DNA that allows you to empathise and understand the plight of your fellow man.
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/7/2008 5:53:31 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Yes.
So then how would your opinion be anymore or less true than my own?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/7/2008 5:55:52 PM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Yes.
So then how would your opinion be anymore or less true than my own?
By a comparison to the evidence.
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/7/2008 6:01:16 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
By a comparison to the evidence.
But your opinion about that evidence is a product of your genetics and experience.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/7/2008 7:13:48 PM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
So you disagree with glaudys that a soul distinguishes an animal from a human?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Well, do you believe humans are persons? That is entities with minds, a will, and an awareness of self?
Ooops!. I knew I should have stopped to ask what you meant by "soul". Is this your definition?
If so, I would agree these are indicators of sentience and are not unique to humans.
This is not what I understand by "soul".
And, of course, I should also have corrected your initial question to refer to the difference between other animals and humans.
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/7/2008 8:53:47 PM
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FlashAce
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Real simple. Physical evidence proves one of them is a liar.
"The Old Testament is a false history of the world" - Charles Darwin
The man Jesus quoted on hell is 12 for 12 - http://www.isaiah666.com
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Who among them can show us the http://www.formerthings.com
Isaiah 43
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/7/2008 9:48:13 PM
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cih92
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quote:
Chihuahuas and Great Danes can not produce offspring. Does that make them different kinds?
Yes, according to the definition given by creationists. Do you think creationists need to revise their definition?
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Thoughts are physical as is shown by functional MRI.
Just because thoughts are corrrelated with brain waves does not mean that thoughts are identical with brain waves. Do you know what a person is thinking just by looking at his brain waves? The answer is "No." Thoughts are not identical with brain waves because thoughts have different properties than brain waves. It makes no sense to say that my thought of Kansas City has a certain length, shape, frequency, weight, or smell.
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/7/2008 9:53:46 PM
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cih92
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Some people say that the mind and the brain are identical. They say that the properties of the brain’s states and processes are the same as the properties of the mind’s states and processes and vice versa. For example, they would say that feeling pain is the same as the firing of C-fibers in one’s brain. I would disagree with that argument because one could know everything about the firing of C-fibers in my brain without knowing what pain feels like to me. What pain feels like to me is a subjective experience that is not captured in physicalist terms. This subjective experience is not a physical property.
Some people say that mental phenomena such as one’s beliefs, thoughts, and desires are identical with some physical entities such as neurons. My response is that there are things that are true of mental phenomena, which are not true of physical entities like neurons. Physical entities like neurons are spatially located, but one’s beliefs, thoughts, and desires are not. Physical entities have physical properties such as electrical charge, mass, volume, and so on, but mental phenomena do not have those properties. It makes no sense to say that my thought of San Francisco is two millimeters long or that it is located one millimeter away from my right ear or that it has a certain weight and smell.
Allow me to give another argument that proves that the mind and the brain are not identical. Suppose there is a scientist who spends her entire life in a black and white room and she never sees color. She learns everything there is to know about how people perceive color. She learns about all of the brain states that are related with perceiving color. The physicalist would say that she knows everything there is to know about seeing color. If she were to step out of the room and observe colorful things such as a rainbow, a multi-colored jacket, and so on would she learn something new? The answer is "Yes." Having a firsthand experience of seeing color is not identical with knowing the physiology of seeing color. One’s subjective experience of what color looks like does not have the same properties as one’s knowledge of the physiology of seeing color. If they had the same properties, then the scientist would not learn anything new upon leaving the room and seeing different colors.
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/7/2008 10:02:35 PM
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hellohellohi
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quote:
feeling pain is the same as the firing of C-fibers in one’s brain
It's interesting to consider how this fashionable attitude developed. I suspect it was devised by some frustrated philosopher concerned with a sense of his growing irrelevance on campus. (I don't say philosophy is irrelevant, but that's just how I figure it came about.)
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/7/2008 10:49:56 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Ooops!. I knew I should have stopped to ask what you meant by "soul". Is this your definition?
If so, I would agree these are indicators of sentience and are not unique to humans.
This is not what I understand by "soul".
And, of course, I should also have corrected your initial question to refer to the difference between other animals and humans.
I know it is hard to find yourself at odds with an atheist and lose face, but you really shouldn't be so timid. I didn't define a soul yet - but I would say my understanding of it is pretty standard. What is your definition of soul?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/8/2008 12:38:20 AM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I didn't define a soul yet - but I would say my understanding of it is pretty standard. What is your definition of soul?
There are, of course, a good many definitions of "soul" and nowhere does scripture actually define it.
The Septuagint translates the Hebrew 'nephesh' by the Greek 'psyche', but those concepts are not really identical.
The Hebrew term seems to refer to a union of spirit and flesh (Gen. 2:7), whereas the Greek term is more frequently used for an entity separable from the body which survives the body after death.
OTOH, the Greek term is also used simply as a synonym for "life", such that all living things are said to have a soul, though Aristotle differentiated between vegetable, animal and rational souls. Vegetation, according to him had only a vegetative soul. Non-human animals had a soul that was both vegetative and animal. (And, of course, the Latin term for soul is 'anima' and implies anything which is animated.)
Only humans, however, were possessed of a soul which in addition to vegetative and animative qualities was also rational.
Another view original with Aristotle and adopted by Aquinas is that the soul is the form (in its Platonic sense) of the body. That comes closest, I think, to the Hebrew meaning of 'nephesh'. As you may be aware, one of the chief differences between Plato and Aristotle, is that Plato believed in the independent reality of forms which are separable from the material aspect of a being, whereas Aristotle held that forms did not exist apart from matter.
I would agree with that. So I would define soul as a union in one entity of spiritual and biological life. I am tempted to refer to it as a psychosomatic unity, but we tend to identify the prefix "psyche-" with the mind, where in terms of the soul, I would consider the correct referent to be the spirit.
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/8/2008 1:11:13 AM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cih92
Some people say that mental phenomena such as one’s beliefs, thoughts, and desires are identical with some physical entities such as neurons. My response is that there are things that are true of mental phenomena, which are not true of physical entities like neurons. Physical entities like neurons are spatially located, but one’s beliefs, thoughts, and desires are not.
And yet, if a particular spatial portion of your brain is cauterized, certain beliefs or memories disappear. For all I know, desires and thoughts also disappear.
The usual presentation of Mary the colorblind color scientist violates one of its suppositions: that she knows "everything there is to know about how people perceive color". If she truly does, then she knows what the experience of color is like. If there is something about the perception of color that she didn't know, then she didn't know everything.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Criticisms of Evolution? - 7/8/2008 1:32:23 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
Another view original with Aristotle and adopted by Aquinas is that the soul is the form (in its Platonic sense) of the body. That comes closest, I think, to the Hebrew meaning of 'nephesh'. As you may be aware, one of the chief differences between Plato and Aristotle, is that Plato believed in the independent reality of forms which are separable from the material aspect of a being, whereas Aristotle held that forms did not exist apart from matter.
I would agree with that. So I would define soul as a union in one entity of spiritual and biological life. I am tempted to refer to it as a psychosomatic unity, but we tend to identify the prefix "psyche-" with the mind, where in terms of the soul, I would consider the correct referent to be the spirit.
Well, I have noticed you have a tendency to become obtuse when you are reluctant to actually answer a question, but we will go with it.
What role do you think the soul plays in a person's life, and how does this differ from what an animal experiences?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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