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backrowbaptist -> Is God green? (7/1/2008 1:06:14 PM)

This is an article I read on my old church's seminary's web-site. It's by Glen Scougie.
I posted a response, which I'll also share with y'all.

Article:
Is God Green?
Our planet is in peril. Christianity is the world’s largest religion. A crucial question of our times is whether this faith will have a constructive or destructive impact—or end up an indifferent factor—in how the global environmental crisis will play out. So far, when it comes to ecology and environmental care, Christianity is sending very mixed messages. It is proving to be an ambivalent religion.

For the rest of the article - http://glenscorgie.com/2008/04/15/is-god-green/#more-33



backrowbaptist -> RE: Is God green? (7/1/2008 1:08:21 PM)

Here's my response to the above article:

Is God Green?
To a Christian layman such as myself, free from the pressures and imperatives of theologians and Christian academics to develop ministry strategies and culturally relevant messages, I find your arguments in the above article and subsequent comments troubling on many fronts. If you’ll indulge me, I’ll focus on two.
Firstly, to quote Glen Scourgie “Many thoughtful people are now convinced that the problem now exceeds any administrative, political or scientific solution; that, ultimately, it also requires a religious or spiritual revolution—the kind that alters the way whole civilizations see and do life.” This can be seen as a basic description of a religion, which is how many thoughtful people view modern environmentalism - as a secular substitute for rejected Judeo-Christian faiths. It has the concepts of Deity (Mother Earth, Gaea), Eden (Earth before western civilization), original sin (pollution, carbon emissions), prophets (Rachel Carson, Paul Ehrlich, Al Gore and others. - false prophets all), a messiah (Gore?) redemption (recycling, green lifestyles, carbon offsets), apostasy (skeptics of GW are often likened to Holocaust deniers, or have their motives attacked), pending doomsday (Silent Spring, Population Bomb, now man-made global catastrophe) and Paradise (harmony with nature, Ecotopia). Thousands of thoughtful scientists, intellectuals (Christian and secular) and people of faith do not believe the hysteria of the environmentalists. This is not due to any sinister ambivalence for creation, or desire to dominate it. Rather, it is because they have heard the dire predictions and doomsday scenarios of radical environmentalism for forty-plus years, and have seen most or all of them turn out to be false, often with disastrous consequences for humanity (40 million dead as a result of the ban on DDT, for example). And yet their messages are still wholeheartedly believed by so many in our society, and now, tragically, by a growing number in the evangelical community. For those who value truth, this is frightening.
Secondly, to quote John Mustol - “But it should not be our purpose to please environmentalists or any other human groups.” But that’s exactly what you are advocating. The environmental movement has always been political, and they are overjoyed that evangelicals are accepting their claims, which they will use to their political advantage. One cannot read or hear a claim to the scientific certainty of Global Warming (now being called “Climate Change” due to an inconvenient global cooling cycle) without an urging of society having the “political will” to enact measures to stop it. Why believe this “human group’s” messages while ignoring the evidence and arguments of the above mentioned skeptics? Why not a balanced approach?
To conclude, the approach you advocate will, in my prayerfully considered opinion, lead to a deceiving and weakening of the evangelical community, resulting in a further lack of ability by the faithful to “stand firm” against false teachings. By embracing the cause of the Green Movement and, ominously, assigning such an attribute to God (Scourgie), and by linking salvation to environmental activism (Mustol), you will take the first steps down a slippery slope towards the false religion of environmentalism and will be pulled towards secularism and even the “enchanted worldview of neo-paganism, the virtue of harmony pursued by Taoists, and the simple, gentle demeanor cultivated by Buddhism.”



fiat_lux -> RE: Is God green? (7/1/2008 2:58:30 PM)

quote:

It has the concepts of Deity (Mother Earth, Gaea), Eden (Earth before western civilization), original sin (pollution, carbon emissions), prophets (Rachel Carson, Paul Ehrlich, Al Gore and others. - false prophets all), a messiah (Gore?) redemption (recycling, green lifestyles, carbon offsets), apostasy (skeptics of GW are often likened to Holocaust deniers, or have their motives attacked), pending doomsday (Silent Spring, Population Bomb, now man-made global catastrophe) and Paradise (harmony with nature, Ecotopia).

This is a pretty far exaggerated view of environmentalism here. And the environmentalists who are extremists, at least the few that I'm aware of, frequently hate Gore, or at least strongly dislike him. I fear you are searching for something that may not be there outside of some of the radical groups. And radical groups by their nature are not particularly large, nor do they care for people like Gore.

quote:

And yet their messages are still wholeheartedly believed by so many in our society, and now, tragically, by a growing number in the evangelical community.

At the very most, the fact that a number of evangelicals have concluded (wrongly, as you put it) that there are drastic environmental problems is unfortunate, but hardly "tragic." At least it shows that they take their stewardship of the planet seriously.

quote:

(now being called “Climate Change” due to an inconvenient global cooling cycle)

Oddly enough, I just read that the north pole, given the present trend, might be ice free this year. So much for your inconvenient cooling cycle.

What is your criticism, exactly? All environmentalism, or just some such? All issues, or just climate change? I'm a little unclear from what you've been writing.



WesP -> RE: Is God green? (7/1/2008 3:53:55 PM)

Seems to me that he is expressing his frustrations with the ignorance of the greenies! [;)]



backrowbaptist -> RE: Is God green? (7/1/2008 4:12:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fiat_lux


This is a pretty far exaggerated view of environmentalism here. And the environmentalists who are extremists, at least the few that I'm aware of, frequently hate Gore, or at least strongly dislike him. I fear you are searching for something that may not be there outside of some of the radical groups. And radical groups by their nature are not particularly large, nor do they care for people like Gore.

I actually stole most of that from a speech by Michael Crichton, who speaks from a secular point of view, but I have heard many other commentators and authors make the same point, that environmentalism takes an enormous ammount of faith, and at some point becomes faith, filling the human need for believing in something bigger than yourself.


quote:

At the very most, the fact that a number of evangelicals have concluded (wrongly, as you put it) that there are drastic environmental problems is unfortunate, but hardly "tragic." At least it shows that they take their stewardship of the planet seriously.

It's tragic because it's a false message they're embracing, and it will have tragic social and economic consequences if environmentalists policies are implemented. I gave the example of the DDT ban killing so many millions, mostly children. How many times must these environmental doomsday predictions turn out to be false and destructive before we stop believing them?


quote:

Oddly enough, I just read that the north pole, given the present trend, might be ice free this year. So much for your inconvenient cooling cycle.

And from what I've read, the ice is actually thickening in many parts, and that the Earth hasn't warmed at all the last ten years. It's actually cooled slightly. But let me ask you, fiat, if you've read that the north pole will totally melt this year, have you heard of (or noticed) the sea levels rising any faster? Or at all? Isn't that what all the hysteria is about?

quote:

What is your criticism, exactly? All environmentalism, or just some such? All issues, or just climate change? I'm a little unclear from what you've been writing.


My criticism is that there are thousands of voices, with evidence, that are telling us that the earth is NOT in peril, and they are being ignored and shut out of the issue for political reasons. Christians shouldn't buy into this. We should value truth over all other considerations.
All my life I've heard these dire ecological predictions, from population explosion, a new ice age, the ozone layer, and now global war... I'm sorry, climate change (why did they changed that, then?). They are always either wildly exagerated or totally false. Why believe them now?



rcjames -> RE: Is God green? (7/1/2008 4:58:58 PM)

A few thing God said about being green;

(Deu 16:21) Thou shalt not plant thee a grove of any trees near unto the altar of the LORD thy God, which thou shalt make thee.

and

(Jdg 6:25) And it came to pass the same night, that the LORD said unto him, Take thy father's young bullock, even the second bullock of seven years old, and throw down the altar of Baal that thy father hath, and cut down the grove that is by it:

(Jdg 6:26) And build an altar unto the LORD thy God upon the top of this rock, in the ordered place, and take the second bullock, and offer a burnt sacrifice with the wood of the grove which thou shalt cut down.

and

(2Ki 23:15) Moreover the altar that was at Bethel, and the high place which Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who made Israel to sin, had made, both that altar and the high place he brake down, and burned the high place, and stamped it small to powder, and burned the grove.
.

and, and, and , and.

Maybe God is not as "Green" as the tree huggers would try and make one believe He is.

Thansk
RC



colliefan -> RE: Is God green? (7/1/2008 9:59:04 PM)

The tree huggers are just CAVEmen

citizens against virtually anything



Dragonnie -> RE: Is God green? (7/2/2008 4:50:43 AM)

i think He is practical and reasonable, and will not blame me for the polluting done by big corporations and gov't policies.



mapachito13 -> RE: Is God green? (7/2/2008 5:28:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

A few thing God said about being green;

(Deu 16:21) Thou shalt not plant thee a grove of any trees near unto the altar of the LORD thy God, which thou shalt make thee.

and

(Jdg 6:25) And it came to pass the same night, that the LORD said unto him, Take thy father's young bullock, even the second bullock of seven years old, and throw down the altar of Baal that thy father hath, and cut down the grove that is by it:

(Jdg 6:26) And build an altar unto the LORD thy God upon the top of this rock, in the ordered place, and take the second bullock, and offer a burnt sacrifice with the wood of the grove which thou shalt cut down.

and

(2Ki 23:15) Moreover the altar that was at Bethel, and the high place which Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who made Israel to sin, had made, both that altar and the high place he brake down, and burned the high place, and stamped it small to powder, and burned the grove.
.

and, and, and , and.

Maybe God is not as "Green" as the tree huggers would try and make one believe He is.

Thansk
RC


Genesis 1:29 And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food." And it was so.

Genesis 2 9 And out of the ground the LORD God made to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food, the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 2 15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it.

Genesis before the fall doesn't compare with the earth after but shouldn't we be fulfilling our original mission assigned to us from the beginning to keep it. Or do you think it's OK to disrespect God's creation?



Sophie11 -> RE: Is God green? (7/2/2008 8:49:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist

quote:

ORIGINAL: fiat_lux

Oddly enough, I just read that the north pole, given the present trend, might be ice free this year. So much for your inconvenient cooling cycle.

And from what I've read, the ice is actually thickening in many parts, and that the Earth hasn't warmed at all the last ten years. It's actually cooled slightly. But let me ask you, fiat, if you've read that the north pole will totally melt this year, have you heard of (or noticed) the sea levels rising any faster? Or at all? Isn't that what all the hysteria is about?


The south pole is setting a record for the MOST ice since recording began.
http://icecap.us/index.php/go/joes-blog/a_new_record_for_antartic_total_ice_extent

But being that these records only go as far back as 1979 I hardly think 29 years of data is enough to get crazy about. Who knows what it was doing before then.



rcjames -> RE: Is God green? (7/2/2008 10:57:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Genesis before the fall doesn't compare with the earth after but shouldn't we be fulfilling our original mission assigned to us from the beginning to keep it. Or do you think it's OK to disrespect God's creation?


(Gen 1:26) And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Seems like God gave man doninion over all the earth to do with as man so desired.

Thanks
RC



galadriel2 -> RE: Is God green? (7/2/2008 11:04:51 AM)

What crisis?...hmmmm....I think the Lord views Himself as the one who makes and changes the weather - not man and he emissions - especially since that nations are like grasshoppers to him.

God bless all abundantly,
Galadriel2



GroupW -> RE: Is God green? (7/2/2008 11:11:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

A few thing God said about being green;

(Deu 16:21) Thou shalt not plant thee a grove of any trees near unto the altar of the LORD thy God, which thou shalt make thee.

and

(Jdg 6:25) And it came to pass the same night, that the LORD said unto him, Take thy father's young bullock, even the second bullock of seven years old, and throw down the altar of Baal that thy father hath, and cut down the grove that is by it:

(Jdg 6:26) And build an altar unto the LORD thy God upon the top of this rock, in the ordered place, and take the second bullock, and offer a burnt sacrifice with the wood of the grove which thou shalt cut down.

and

(2Ki 23:15) Moreover the altar that was at Bethel, and the high place which Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who made Israel to sin, had made, both that altar and the high place he brake down, and burned the high place, and stamped it small to powder, and burned the grove.
.

and, and, and , and.

Maybe God is not as "Green" as the tree huggers would try and make one believe He is.

Thansk
RC


For the record, this is God speaking out against Israel's adoption of Canaanite pagan practices and should probably not be extrapolated to normal environmentalist policies. It could however be extrapolated (in my opinion) to the lunatic fringe of the environmental movement that seek to put environmentalism on par with the divine.



backrowbaptist -> RE: Is God green? (7/2/2008 11:14:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WesP

Seems to me that he is expressing his frustrations with the ignorance of the greenies! [;)]


And with those within the evangelical community who along with such ignorance, even spirtualize it.



GroupW -> RE: Is God green? (7/2/2008 11:14:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Genesis before the fall doesn't compare with the earth after but shouldn't we be fulfilling our original mission assigned to us from the beginning to keep it. Or do you think it's OK to disrespect God's creation?


(Gen 1:26) And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Seems like God gave man doninion over all the earth to do with as man so desired.

Thanks
RC


Who does creation belong to? Are we "keeping" it, or are we "using" it? I think the world and everything in it is the Lord's. I'm not sure he approves of our custodianship thus far. Just an opinion.

Also, the references to having "dominion" and ruling over creation are prior to the fall and sin. In our fallen nature, I'm not sure we are capable of exercising "dominion" appropriately now. I would be careful in how far I pushed that idea.



Soxfan -> RE: Is God green? (7/2/2008 11:34:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist

Our planet is in peril.
global environmental crisis



Documented proof to support either of these statements would be greatly appreciated



colliefan -> RE: Is God green? (7/2/2008 11:39:20 AM)

quote:

Or do you think it's OK to disrespect God's creation?


The greenies want us to worship the Earth. As RC indicated we are to subdue it and master it; this does NOT mean be to careless in its use. If one wants to see what it means to be careless in its use, just visit any of the countries of the former eastern block.

The adament refusal to drill anywhere and to build new refineries is hurting the poor not only here but across the globe. The shifting of food to fuel is causing a hunger crsis. All based on the myth of global warming. And who is profiting off this myth: none aother than Pope Albore of the Church of Global Warming.?



colliefan -> RE: Is God green? (7/2/2008 11:46:52 AM)

subdue/dominion

kâbash

kaw-bash'

A primitive root; to tread down; hence negatively to disregard; positively to conquer, subjugate, violate:—bring into bondage, force, keep under, subdue, bring into subjection.


don't see anything here about worship



colliefan -> RE: Is God green? (7/2/2008 11:52:04 AM)

quote:

Documented proof to support either of these statements would be greatly appreciated


Not just documented proof, but proof that is based on real-time, and not modeled data. But studies that were done using the scientific method: that being observable, measureable, and repeatable. Come on greenies if global warming is such a truth I know you can provide this type of evidence. Is it provable beyond a reasonable doubt; I think not.



GroupW -> RE: Is God green? (7/2/2008 12:19:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

The greenies want us to worship the Earth.


I think that's an adequate description of the lunatic fringe within the movement.

I think it's a tremendous bit of hyperbole when it comes to the normal green-sensitive environmentalist that would like to see us bring our consumption into line with sustainability.

For one, I'd prefer we lock the lunatic fringe on the conservative side and the lunatic fringe on the green side in a room so the rest of us can discuss the issues in peace [;)]



GroupW -> RE: Is God green? (7/2/2008 12:23:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

subdue/dominion

kâbash

kaw-bash'

A primitive root; to tread down; hence negatively to disregard; positively to conquer, subjugate, violate:—bring into bondage, force, keep under, subdue, bring into subjection.


don't see anything here about worship


Just looked it up myself - the word used is indeed a very strong word. It is however descriptive of the role man had pre-fall. Pre-sin, I think we had the capability to exercise "dominion" appropriately. Post-fall, not so much. I think post-fall, our "dominion" rapidly deteriorates into "abuse" when given free reign, which is why I get a bit uncomfortable when this verse gets brought up in the context of environmentalism.

That said, I see that we can agree that exercising dominion is intended to be a responsible use. That's where Christians and rational environmentalists can agree.



SonInMe1 -> RE: Is God green? (7/2/2008 12:27:29 PM)

Is God green?

First He is Spirit and color just doesn't apply.

Second, God gave us the creation to use. Not to worship. Not to be subject to but to make it subject to us.

Third, God expects us to use good stewardship over all He has placed under our control.

Fourth, we are doing that. There are so many laws concerning the enviroment now that to add more is not only redundant, its ridiculous.

Fifth, the earth is NOT in any way or form in peril. Only young people who were not around before there were pollution standards can make this very faulty and prejudicial claim.

Lastly, the enviromental movement is akin to a religion..at worst...and social control at best. Its not about the enviroment, since it is already protected. Its about political and social control and power. Its based on very faulty science. Its more emotion than fact.



GroupW -> RE: Is God green? (7/2/2008 12:32:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soxfan

quote:

ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist

Our planet is in peril.
global environmental crisis



Documented proof to support either of these statements would be greatly appreciated


1) Concentrations of heavy metals, PCB's, etc in large aquatic mammalians. Pacific Northwest killer whales routinely lose their 1st born. The mother's milk has extremely high concentrations of fat which carry contaminants to the newborn. On their first birth, the mothers milk acts as a flushing device, clearing out some of the contaminants from the mother and poisoning the first born. That should tell us that something is seriously wrong.

2) FDA recommendations to limit intake of large predator fish like tuna, particularly for pregnant women. (Warnings about consuming fish from the Great Lakes here in the U.S. abound.)

3) A large "pond" of decomposing plastic many, many miles across in the Pacific Ocean.

4) Significantly declining fish stocks in some areas and endangered salmon runs in the NW.

5) On the brighter side, recovering raptor populations in the U.S. due to largely eliminated DDT use. Evidence that a few minor modifications can have significant positive environmental effects.

Whether or not we're "in peril" or in a "crisis" can be argued. Those words mean different things to different folks. Obviously though, we have some warning signs that we might do well to consider and offer up solutions on.



GroupW -> RE: Is God green? (7/2/2008 12:37:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1

Fifth, the earth is NOT in any way or form in peril. Only young people who were not around before there were pollution standards can make this very faulty and prejudicial claim.

Lastly, the enviromental movement is akin to a religion..at worst...and social control at best. Its not about the enviroment, since it is already protected.


This is basically a relative argument - it's better than it was when we were kids, so then it must be good enough. It's actually quite possible that we can do better. Example: clean diesel. The newest generation of automotive diesels being designed by Cummins will get +/- 30% better mileage and be at least as clean burning as the current crop of gas engines. This is a good thing, but it wouldn't have happened (as quickly) without someone stepping up to require it.

Not that I'm for government interference, but not all interference is necessarily bad.

The Brown Cloud here in Denver isn't necessarily a permanent phenomenon that we have to live with. I'd like to see it go away. I think we can do it without trashing our economy.

I don't think progress should stop just because it's better than it used to be.



TaoPoohBear -> RE: Is God green? (7/2/2008 12:43:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

quote:

Documented proof to support either of these statements would be greatly appreciated


Not just documented proof, but proof that is based on real-time, and not modeled data. But studies that were done using the scientific method: that being observable, measureable, and repeatable. Come on greenies if global warming is such a truth I know you can provide this type of evidence. Is it provable beyond a reasonable doubt; I think not.

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