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RE: Is God green? - 7/11/2008 9:55:11 AM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2537
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
You can't compare Raleigh with Boston - totally different. The city of Raleigh, itself, doesn't generate that much traffic except for state government. It's relatively small as cities go, not that big of a population. The biggest traffic generator is Research Triangle Park which lies roughly between Raleigh and Durham. Most of the population lives in suburban areas and smaller cities around the area, which is very spread out in all directions. The decentralized population makes mass transit a huge nightmare. There is no practical way (IMHO) to make it work. Trains or buses can be run from places with denser population into RTP, but RTP has, I believe, well over 100,000 employees in many different companies, and all sorts of starting and quitting times. Most of these jobs in RTP are professional types, scientific, technical, managerial, executive, etc. that don't necessarily have regular hours. That's only RTP.
North Raleigh and surrounding areas are growing like weeds, with all sorts of light manufacturing and commerce building there. This is true of several other areas as well.
Myself, I live in a tiny town about 25 miles south of Raleigh and work in Knightdale which is some 10-12 miles east of Raleigh. There would not be any sort of mass transit that would ever help me out. Yes I could move to be closer, but the cost of housing is much higher when you get nearer to Raleigh, Cary, RTP, etc. Just wouldn't be financially feasible.
I know many who are in the same boat as I am. We drive our private vehicles an hour each way back and forth to work each day. It ain't much fun, it's expensive with the $4+ gasoline, but overall, it's cheaper and the quality of life is better that the alternative.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
Our socialist of a mayor says his aim is to get everyone away from single family homes and into high rise buildings. In that vein, he wants to build a train system that even the wastefull Federal government says will not work.
Don't knock it till you've tried it. Because of our public transit system, it's easier for me to get into and around downtown Boston than it is for me to get from one suburb to another. If I worked in downtown, I could take the train into work and actually save myself money. If your city is growing, building up is a better way to go than building out.
-Dan.
One advice to small yet growing cities is to build up a great mass transit infrastructure while you're small. It's less expensive and you can do it a little at a time so that in the future when it is necessary you are not trying to play catch up!
This is definitely LA's problem. Too much sprawl and only the freeways to get you there. Many of our freeways, especially those downtown were built in the 1940's and still have the same number of lanes (too few) to handle all the traffic which is probably the biggest waster of gas and people's time than any other factor. IOW it affects business productivity as well! The OC is worse with it taking 20 minutes to travel one city block (approximately 1/4 of a mile)!
Recently we've been adding train service to downtown but rail and bus service are not extensive enough to make having a car not necessary. Sometimes it is even more expensive than driving! Mexico City has better than LA! NYC has great mass transit with the subways and buses but, again, it was established long ago!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Is God green? - 7/11/2008 9:55:49 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1960
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
You can't compare Raleigh with Boston - totally different. The city of Raleigh, itself, doesn't generate that much traffic except for state government. It's relatively small as cities go, not that big of a population. The biggest traffic generator is Research Triangle Park which lies roughly between Raleigh and Durham. Most of the population lives in suburban areas and smaller cities around the area, which is very spread out in all directions. The decentralized population makes mass transit a huge nightmare. There is no practical way (IMHO) to make it work. Trains or buses can be run from places with denser population into RTP, but RTP has, I believe, well over 100,000 employees in many different companies, and all sorts of starting and quitting times. Most of these jobs in RTP are professional types, scientific, technical, managerial, executive, etc. that don't necessarily have regular hours. That's only RTP.
North Raleigh and surrounding areas are growing like weeds, with all sorts of light manufacturing and commerce building there. This is true of several other areas as well.
Myself, I live in a tiny town about 25 miles south of Raleigh and work in Knightdale which is some 10-12 miles east of Raleigh. There would not be any sort of mass transit that would ever help me out. Yes I could move to be closer, but the cost of housing is much higher when you get nearer to Raleigh, Cary, RTP, etc. Just wouldn't be financially feasible.
I know many who are in the same boat as I am. We drive our private vehicles an hour each way back and forth to work each day. It ain't much fun, it's expensive with the $4+ gasoline, but overall, it's cheaper and the quality of life is better that the alternative.
-Dave
From your description, it's actually not that much different from Boston. I live in a western suburb and work in a southern suburb, so I go around the city every day. Because of the direction I travel, but commute is a breeze, but if I were going the other direction, it would easily double (from 30 minutes to 75+). As the city grows, making everything more spread out and diffuse just makes the traffic problem worse and, as you pointed out, essentially kills any hopes for a mass transit system. At least if you try to congregate some of the people and businesses into a more densely populated urban environment, you can begin to alleviate some of the problems.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Is God green? - 7/11/2008 10:00:16 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 779
Joined: 1/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
One more time, I think we're not talking about the same thing. If you want to talk about the fringe elements within the green movement, we can do that. If you want to talk about global warming (actually a small portion of the green concern, just one that's getting the publicity right now), we can do that too. Or, we can talk about the mainstream collective green community which is much broader than your definition would include.
Your header here, though, is a question of whether or not God is green. As defined by you, encompassing the more radical fringe, the consensus answer is no. As defined by me in terms of the broader green movement generally, then the consensus answer leans toward a qualified yes in that we are generally admonished to be good stewards and not messing in our own beds.
GroupW, I think the problem is that the radical green movement seems to be becoming more the mainstream, not the "good stewards" crowd. Think of all the environmental laws being passed or attempting to be passed, these are newer developments that show the radicals are getting the upper hand in the "green" movement.
I hear talk of carbon credits and forced thermostat regulation. That to me seems very extreme.
As far as global warming goes, to you it may seem a small part of it but let me assure you that many people are basing their every move on it. Everything they do is in an attempt to stop "global warming" (or at least make a boatload of money trying to convince others to do so).
Anyway, I see you saying that some of us only want to talk about the fringe of the environmentalist movement, but what I am saying is that the fringe is now becoming mainstream. It is impossible not to take this effort into consideration.
It looks like the fringe, because as a global-warming denier, you're more-or-less on the other extreme. The fringe isn't becoming mainstream; if that were the case, everybody would be blowing up medical labs and chaining themselves to trees.
Well maybe that's your idea of fringe, but I wasn't talking about the psychotics.
quote:
What's happening is that people in the middle are starting to accept the idea that there's something to all of this. Deny it all you want, but most people accept the scientific consensus that increased emissions enhance a potentially-destructive greenhouse effect. It's not destructive to the point of turning earth into a molten slag heap, but it's enough to potentially destroy coastal communities and cause massive droughts in other areas.
So in your opinion CO2 is going to ruin the earth? Excuse me if I don't buy into that.
I am of the opinion that whatever amount of actual global warming is going on is sunspot related. I really don't care what the majority of sheep who believe everything they hear if they hear it enough times think, I will not be part of the majority then. Doesn't bother me one bit! I rather like it that way!
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RE: Is God green? - 7/11/2008 10:26:04 AM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1060
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
Status: offline
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The global warming that may or may not be occuring (the jury is still out on this, despite the ravings of the super-greenies) is a natural event. It's cyclical and has been going on since the beginning (well, for over a thousand years). And sunspots do influence it also.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
I am of the opinion that whatever amount of actual global warming is going on is sunspot related. I really don't care what the majority of sheep who believe everything they hear if they hear it enough times think, I will not be part of the majority then. Doesn't bother me one bit! I rather like it that way!
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Is God green? - 7/11/2008 10:33:16 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 779
Joined: 1/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
The global warming that may or may not be occuring (the jury is still out on this, despite the ravings of the super-greenies) is a natural event. It's cyclical and has been going on since the beginning (well, for over a thousand years). And sunspots do influence it also.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
I am of the opinion that whatever amount of actual global warming is going on is sunspot related. I really don't care what the majority of sheep who believe everything they hear if they hear it enough times think, I will not be part of the majority then. Doesn't bother me one bit! I rather like it that way!
Well yes, you're right and that's what I meant as well, that it is a naturally occuring cycle. I'm just saying that I think the increase or decrease in sunspots has a lot to do with this cycle.
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RE: Is God green? - 7/11/2008 10:36:49 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2909
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
My point is the green movement is driving up the cost of living for everyone with no impact on the environment at all. My guess is that the facilities that are designed to be "green" are aimed for the upper income bracket. They can feel good about "saving the planet" and yet have diddly-squat of an impact on the planet.
Our socialist of a mayor says his aim is to get everyone away from single family homes and into high rise buildings. In that vein, he wants to build a train system that even the wastefull Federal government says will not work.
In general, the green movement leaders want a lower lifestyle for everyone but themselves. They can fly on gas-guzzling private jets and pay for their "sins" with carbon credits that do nothing more than enrich themselves.
So I can agree there's a fair amount of stupidity in certain aspects of the green movement. Again, though, you can't disregard the entire movement due to the fact that there is a fair bit of idiocy mixed in here and there. I mentioned it earlier, but the idea of "throwing the baby out with the bath water" comes to mind.
For example, in your community light rail may not really be viable. There are many communities where that would be true. Here in Denver, however, it has exceeded all expectations. It's so popular, it's tough to find a parking place near the train - it's so much more popular than expected, the new parking lots are too small. Light rail here isn't a perk for the wealthy. Public transportation reduces costs for low and mid-income folk.
As far as the facilities we build, it's apartment complexes, offices, warehouses, and retail centers. The apartment complexes generally serve lower middle and middle income folk. Lower income and lower middle income work in the warehouses, while upper income workers get employed in the offices. The shopping centers get used by everyone. I don't think it's fair to say they only benefit upper income workers.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Is God green? - 7/11/2008 11:23:54 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2909
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
I still advocate taking care of the earth and protecting its resources for future generation (PaleHawkWoman said it the best) but we need to live on this planet too!
Exactly. In the end, it's all about balance. Where each of us thinks that balance should be struck is a bit different, but in the end we ALL have to make some choices on how we balance the need of our community against our own consumption patterns.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Is God green? - 7/11/2008 3:07:20 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: online
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The "greenies" that have overseen the mass transit system have spent much money on a light rail system and now have nothing to show for their high-priced work.
Instead of having an integrated bus system that connects the cities of the triangle and having a grid that connects the parts of each city, they continued to press for a "pie in the sky" rail system. The proposed system was so poorly designed it didn't have a stop at the airport or the state fair/NCSU stadium/RBC Center.
I would use a bus, but the area of the city that I frequent the most is about five miles down the beltline from my house. To get to that area using mass transit, I would need to go downtown and then go "uptown."
This turns a fifteen minute drive into an hour's bus ride.
My little Saturn gets about 22 miles to the gallon and the bus costs two bucks each way so I am better off time-wise and cost-wise to drive. And I care not one whit how much my CO2 give off since it is not a pollutant.
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RE: Is God green? - 7/14/2008 3:54:58 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1060
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dragonnie
quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
There some circumstances where things will not come clean with just plain soap and water. Washing a greasy oily factory floor with Ivory Soap or getting an auto mechanics hands clean with a bar of Dove doesn't work.
Taking a stone to a toilet bowl will scratch through the porcelain glaze, making the bowl retain much more "bad stuff" in the future.
Years ago, I worked with a man who wouldn't use toothpaste. He brushed his teeth with baking soda. He had nice looking teeth, but his breath smelled like an open sewer. I don't know your take on mouthwash, but something like that is definitely needed if you don't use toothpaste.
Being a guy, I can't address facial concoctions. I use plain soap and water! 
-Dave
To remove oil stains from concrete, there is a package of critters that you can buy. they process the residue.
The stone is soft enough, doesn't harm the porcelain.
Contrary to Listerine's propaganda, bad breath originates in the digestive tract, not always the mouth.
give me 9 points.
I haven't heard of those "critters." What are they?
That stone better be very soft. It doesn't take much to scratch that finish.
Ok, I'll concede on the smelly breath bit., but 9 points? Would you settle for 7?
quote:
you can spray soapy water on plant pests -- they die of diarreah.
who needs Lysol spray? Just keep things clean and open the windows.
I've used 409 and Lysol Kitchen & Bath stuff on ants. Kills them instantly. Also used WD40 on a spider who put a web across my front steps during the night. He/she didn't like it much. I think it died.
Lysol and open windows, etc. - great unless you live in the southeast. Open windows when the temp is around 100 degrees and no breeze! Good way to suffer heat stroke or something like that.
-Dave
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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