Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ear tickler?
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Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ear ... - 7/1/2008 9:31:45 AM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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John 6:64-69 reads -
'64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who it was that should betray him.
65 And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.
66 Upon this many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Jesus said therefore unto the twelve, Would ye also go away?
68 Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we have believed and know that thou art the Holy One of God."
Some here on the Paul Washer thread that he is "too hellfire and brimstone" and is turned off. this reminds me of the above verses. Remember Jesus said we "are the salt of the earth" and if salt lost its flavor what good is it? Remember John the Baptist who told the people Repent! and he got his head chopped off for telling the hard truth to someone. Remember Jesus said "i have meat to eat that you know not of" and remember where it says in the Word of God that some people are on milk and not meat. And remember where Jesus said in the last times there will be people that will want to find ear ticklers and not ones who will give the Word of God?
Well, these and more things tell me that oftentimes nowadays, perhaps we are so spoiled on the ministers nowadays giving us such a cheap easy believism and with the miracle of TV spoon fed right to us, we dont even have to attend church, I think a lot of people have become lazy and we get so "politically correct" we cannot be offended.
But I think if you can stand to hear the Word of God and not complain, and even better - if the Holy Ghost convicts you, THATS GOOD! if it hurts, ITS GOOD. if it hurts and gets to the heart of our sinfulness, and enables us to see, and make a change, ITS GOOD.
just like food tastes good with spice, the Word of God is good if it is not too vanilla spoon fed. Babies cannot handle spicy food. They can only handle milk, Some Christians might not ever grow up if they cannot handle the salty Word of God! and preachers for that matter.
No, I dont think preachers like Paul Washer are "hellfire and brimstone", no I believe they are right on, but if all your hearing is a "feel good" preacher, then its you that are having the problem. Many Christians CAN hear and love good firey sermons, why cant others? Whats the problem? maybe the Holy Ghost is convincting you and you think its the man. But it maybe God all along blessing you by sending you such a preacher to hear the true Word of God.
I thank God for His providence in sending us good preachers.
_____________________________
I'm just one of those Calvinistic robots for the Lord :)
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/1/2008 12:17:31 PM
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Consecrated2God
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I've never heard of Paul Washer, so I have no idea what he is preaching and I can't address that issue directly.
However, I'm not so sure that disliking hellfire and brimstone teaching means that you can't handle tough preaching or that you enjoy having your ears tickled.
Here's an interesting verse:
Heb 6:1,2 Therefore, leaving the elementary message about the Messiah, let us go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, faith in God, teaching about ritual washings, laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
According to Hebrews, eternal judgment is an elementary message. It's basic doctrine that needs to be taught to new believers. It's the milk for baby Christians, not the meat for mature Christians. The mature Christians need to hear messages that challenge them in their daily walk.
Personally, I enjoy teaching that convicts and challenges. What I dislike is preaching that is off-the-wall or obnoxious simply for the sake of being obnoxious. Some preachers seem to think that unless they are being obnoxious they aren't really preaching.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/1/2008 12:36:01 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
I've never heard of Paul Washer, so I have no idea what he is preaching and I can't address that issue directly.
However, I'm not so sure that disliking hellfire and brimstone teaching means that you can't handle tough preaching or that you enjoy having your ears tickled.
Here's an interesting verse:
Heb 6:1,2 Therefore, leaving the elementary message about the Messiah, let us go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, faith in God, teaching about ritual washings, laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
According to Hebrews, eternal judgment is an elementary message. It's basic doctrine that needs to be taught to new believers. It's the milk for baby Christians, not the meat for mature Christians. The mature Christians need to hear messages that challenge them in their daily walk.
Personally, I enjoy teaching that convicts and challenges. What I dislike is preaching that is off-the-wall or obnoxious simply for the sake of being obnoxious. Some preachers seem to think that unless they are being obnoxious they aren't really preaching.
AMEN and WELL PUT!!!
I have been in services that everyone praised the preacher's fire and for his strong stand. The problem was that he preached on topics that none in the congregation practiced. At best, many left unchallenged to grow in Christ. At worst, many left feeling righteous (self) because they didn't do any of those things preached against and were better than those who did.
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/1/2008 12:43:55 PM
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crankius
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Great post Consecreated2God!
I don't simply want my ears tickled--I want my heart and intellect challenged with the meat of scripture.
I've seen a Washer sermon. There are those who should examine themselves and question their salvation, and there are certainly times when such a teaching is solid and warranted in the scriptures.
However, I certainly don't want to hear every Sunday that I should be questioning my salvation. Move on! I want to dig deep into the Word and examine my heart on the deeper issues for mature believers.
If a teacher is teaching the whole counsel of scripture, including lots of verse by verse study, the Holy Spirit can do a pretty excellent job of convicting and the Word pierces to the heart far better than any man.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/1/2008 1:20:23 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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Intersting comments! Ok good to hear other opinions about it. I sometimes wonder why folks in church seem to hear a message and dont change or dont be affected because of it. then also I am dismayed at all the junk we hear on TV that calls itself preaching.. Im beginning to worry aobut today's church, especially since I came up in the 1970's before all this modern day churchianity. something is missing. I dont know what.
_____________________________
I'm just one of those Calvinistic robots for the Lord :)
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/1/2008 1:28:01 PM
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wintery
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I remember a sermon that had some shock value and was fiercely rebuking to the men of the church---that was wrong for the group this man was speaking to. It just didn't apply.
The pastor tried to help him by saying it was a good message, but just not for our congregation.
That was a case of tough preaching that became ugly preaching--I can't even post what he said.
So I'm saying the message has to have actual meaning to the audience, not just tough for tough's sake.
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/1/2008 1:32:41 PM
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crankius
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IMA,
God is sovereign. We are His Church, and He is the One who is building it. We don't need to worry! We just need to be faithful.
Consider the good in what you are seeing: the more some become watered-down, the more others yearn for deep faith.
We are seeing a dividing, but in a good way, because it becomes more clear who is teaching and following God's Word and who is simply following the culture, embracing worldly wisdom, or seeking personal gain.
1 Cor 11:19 No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval.
Sometimes I feel discouraged about things too, but then I think on these things and then I don't feel so discouraged.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/1/2008 1:55:13 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
I remember a sermon that had some shock value and was fiercely rebuking to the men of the church---that was wrong for the group this man was speaking to. It just didn't apply.
The pastor tried to help him by saying it was a good message, but just not for our congregation.
That was a case of tough preaching that became ugly preaching--I can't even post what he said.
So I'm saying the message has to have actual meaning to the audience, not just tough for tough's sake.
Our pastor once invited someone that did something similar, he lambasted our deacons without knowing a thing about them. It was far off the mark that our pastor didn't try to smooth it over, he just apologized to the deacons at the next meeting. All of our pastors, that one included, have always considered our deacons an asset in ministry - and the deacons have nothing to with finances or governing.
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/1/2008 2:31:07 PM
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yustme
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
Intersting comments! Ok good to hear other opinions about it. I sometimes wonder why folks in church seem to hear a message and dont change or dont be affected because of it. then also I am dismayed at all the junk we hear on TV that calls itself preaching.. Im beginning to worry aobut today's church, especially since I came up in the 1970's before all this modern day churchianity. something is missing. I dont know what.
I do,the HS OF GOD is missing.
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/1/2008 5:04:12 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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hmmmmm, then MAYBE just MAYBE if the Holy Ghost is there, a person can speak mildly and still make an impact? what say you?
_____________________________
I'm just one of those Calvinistic robots for the Lord :)
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/1/2008 5:06:00 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
I remember a sermon that had some shock value and was fiercely rebuking to the men of the church---that was wrong for the group this man was speaking to. It just didn't apply.
The pastor tried to help him by saying it was a good message, but just not for our congregation.
That was a case of tough preaching that became ugly preaching--I can't even post what he said.
So I'm saying the message has to have actual meaning to the audience, not just tough for tough's sake.
Our pastor once invited someone that did something similar, he lambasted our deacons without knowing a thing about them. It was far off the mark that our pastor didn't try to smooth it over, he just apologized to the deacons at the next meeting. All of our pastors, that one included, have always considered our deacons an asset in ministry - and the deacons have nothing to with finances or governing.
you make me think about one particular minister in chicago that just generrally lambasts everything in general.. he is on TV and been there since a way way back. he is still lambasting the very same things.. now he is a situation where his lambasting is not doing much good, in my opinion. i guess you can lambast just for lambasting sake, but be in the flesh. but thats only one that i can think of.
I like good lambasting! i mean I like to hear where it gets down in my soul and makes me think, whether it be soft or a hard message.
_____________________________
I'm just one of those Calvinistic robots for the Lord :)
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/1/2008 5:44:00 PM
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crankius
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quote:
hmmmmm, then MAYBE just MAYBE if the Holy Ghost is there, a person can speak mildly and still make an impact? what say you?
But it's pretty clear in Acts that there are times when we are to speak the truth boldly. Stephen's sermon was not a soft-sell.
Yet, at other times the Holy Spirit uses a person as a teacher or guide, like the Ethiopian with Phillip. Phillip was called on to explain Christ in the Isaiah passage--He "preached Jesus to him."
Scripture is clear that we are to always be ready to teach the Word.
2Ti 4:2 - Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.
This is why I say we should stick to preaching the whole counsel of scripture, and have lots of verse-by-verse study, because scripture is great at being both bold and gracious. It's all there, and we can't neglect one for the other.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/1/2008 5:46:51 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
you make me think about one particular minister in chicago that just generrally lambasts everything in general.. he is on TV and been there since a way way back. he is still lambasting the very same things.. now he is a situation where his lambasting is not doing much good, in my opinion. i guess you can lambast just for lambasting sake, but be in the flesh. but thats only one that i can think of.
I like good lambasting! i mean I like to hear where it gets down in my soul and makes me think, whether it be soft or a hard message.
Can you please name the ministry/pastor? I have DEEP roots and connections in Chicago.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/1/2008 5:47:00 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
hmmmmm, then MAYBE just MAYBE if the Holy Ghost is there, a person can speak mildly and still make an impact? what say you?
You may be onto something. Either the Holy Spirit is the one who convicts of sin or it's our clever techniques. Hmmm...
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/1/2008 7:59:23 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
But I think if you can stand to hear the Word of God and not complain, and even better - if the Holy Ghost convicts you, THATS GOOD! if it hurts, ITS GOOD. if it hurts and gets to the heart of our sinfulness, and enables us to see, and make a change, ITS GOOD.
.....
No, I dont think preachers like Paul Washer are "hellfire and brimstone", no I believe they are right on, but if all your hearing is a "feel good" preacher, then its you that are having the problem. Many Christians CAN hear and love good firey sermons, why cant others? Whats the problem? maybe the Holy Ghost is convincting you and you think its the man. But it maybe God all along blessing you by sending you such a preacher to hear the true Word of God.
I thank God for His providence in sending us good preachers.
I guess it would depend on whether or not the minister is just venting his own frustrations or is addressing true concerns of sins. I have sat under ministers who manipulated people's guilt and called it preaching against sin. Some of their ideas about what were happening were their own fantasies and did not relate to what was happening in my life.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/1/2008 8:20:02 PM
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crankius
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Hey! Congrats on the granddaughter Graham!
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/1/2008 8:53:15 PM
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prophet
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Just a thought........does anyone here preach to their pastor?  heel and brimstione? ....
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/2/2008 9:57:50 AM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
you make me think about one particular minister in chicago that just generrally lambasts everything in general.. he is on TV and been there since a way way back. he is still lambasting the very same things.. now he is a situation where his lambasting is not doing much good, in my opinion. i guess you can lambast just for lambasting sake, but be in the flesh. but thats only one that i can think of.
I like good lambasting! i mean I like to hear where it gets down in my soul and makes me think, whether it be soft or a hard message.
Can you please name the ministry/pastor? I have DEEP roots and connections in Chicago.
it is named "The Old Landmark Church"... they have a broadcast on TV but i dont know their schedule. this pastor goes back a long way,, back to at least 1970's.. when i first saw him on TV.. and its wierd coz when you watch him on TV, you think you have time traveled back to the olden days because they still believe in no makeup, no pants on women, etc... etc.. and its just like looking at bygone days that you dont see anymore. I was going to church back then when they had strict "holiness" standards, that have now since relaxed sometime during the 1980's or 1990's when i was NOT attending church.
_____________________________
I'm just one of those Calvinistic robots for the Lord :)
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/2/2008 9:58:52 AM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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earthless, wow, sorry, i answered your question, but its about 2 posts above... how did that get there?
< Message edited by IMA_CHRISTIAN -- 7/2/2008 10:05:21 AM >
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/2/2008 12:01:45 PM
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URForgiven
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Preaching is not about being tough or using tough talk, preaching is about the Holy Spirit speaking truth through the preacher to those who need the truth. It is about the message, and if the message is of God, the deliverer and the delivery of the message irrelevant.
I cannot remember the name of the person right now, but he was a preacher who used to get up in the pulpit and read his sermon, practically without infliction and without even raising his head to look out at the congregation...and people would literally be falling over themselves to go forwards and receive Christ.
The method of preaching is irrelevant, what is relevant is that it be God speaking.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/2/2008 12:28:39 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
I cannot remember the name of the person right now, but he was a preacher who used to get up in the pulpit and read his sermon, practically without infliction and without even raising his head to look out at the congregation...and people would literally be falling over themselves to go forwards and receive Christ.
You may be referring to Jonathan Edwards (1703-1758), famous for his sermon "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God". He was known to read it in a quiet, calm voice that commanded silence from the audience.
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/2/2008 9:52:49 PM
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ChristopherJ
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prophet,
Good thoughts! As a pastor myself, I have adopted a philosophy I learned from my old youth pastor, Dave Koop (who is now a senior pastor). He said this:
"I don't practice what I preach...
... I preach what I practice."
I like that. That's a healthy was for pastors to minister the Word! That's why I tell my people that when I preach a hard word, its because God's getting on me, so I'm getting on you... :)
_____________________________
Chris Jordan
www.beausejourchurch.ca
http://thelandofpromise.blogspot.com/
(visit our website for free MP3 audio sermons, sermon notes, articles, devotionals and more).
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