Faith and certainty

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atheistinpeace -> Faith and certainty (6/30/2008 3:33:37 PM)
Thought I'd start a post on the matter of faith and certainty. This is a recurring theme in threads I read or take part in: e.g., 'we know that God doesn't want X, as Scripture tells us so...'. So I'd like to expand on it a bit. My main question is this: how certain are you that your position on God is correct? (I.e., for the vast majority here, how certain are you that the Bible accurately describes the actions and motives of the creator of the universe?) Suggest that respondents to this post rate themselves on a scale of -10 to +10 - where -10 is 'certain there is no God', 0 is 'competely uncertain; have no position either way' and +10 is 'competely certain the Christian God exists'. The reason for my interest in faith and certainty is that it frequently troubles me. There are two main reasons for this. Firstly - and this is a point I've made before - it's intellectual dishonesty. We simply cannot be certain - literally certain - about matters of God. And I apply this to both sides of the debate: I recently read an article about a businessman who erected a billboard advertising a support network for non-believers. My heart sank when I read that he was 'absolutely certain' (quote) there is no God. Of course he can't be. But the problem possibly becomes even bigger for matters of religion. The word 'faith' may be used as a synonym for religious belief, which may be claimed to be supported by evidence. But I frequently see 'faith' used in the context of religion to mean what it technically should mean - beliefs held without evidence (possibly even beliefs held because of a lack of evidence - otherwise the belief becomes no longer faith-based). Surely it becomes even more impossible (if you see what I mean) to be certain in this context. Secondly, false certainty can have terrible consequences. This is probably a more contentious point, as it could be reasonably argued that certainty is not required in the circumstances I'm about to describe. Take 9/11. I firmly believe that the 19 hijackers who committed the atrocity felt certain that Allah wanted them to carry out their heinous acts. Secondly - and not to equate this with terrorism - I believe that false certainity is behind, say, the decision to not fund stem cell research. I don't believe that Bush would have vetoed the funding if he had only suspected that such research goes against the will of God. And finally, for me, claims of certainty undermine arguments. Both Christians and Muslims claim to be certain that their God is real. This assertion will usually be based on the conviction that their holy book is inspired by God, and/or that they've had divine experiences that leave no doubt that their God is definitely out there. I'm sure you can see the problem here: when two conflicting groups claim certainity, I'm more likely to regard both with suspicion. That's my take. There are a whole bunch of questions I'm curious about - do Christians believe that certainty is necessary for true faith? Do they believe that God would allow a small margin for doubt in the spirit of honesty? Do they believe that certainty is justifiable? Lastly, in answer to my own poll question above, I'd put myself at -9. Thanks for reading, AiP

SavedByGraceMD -> RE: Faith and certainty (6/30/2008 4:15:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace My main question is this: how certain are you that your position on God is correct? (I.e., for the vast majority here, how certain are you that the Bible accurately describes the actions and motives of the creator of the universe?) Suggest that respondents to this post rate themselves on a scale of -10 to +10 - where -10 is 'certain there is no God', 0 is 'competely uncertain; have no position either way' and +10 is 'competely certain the Christian God exists'. For me, I say +10, absolutely certain, that God is real. Some days, when I have doubts, I may bump down to +9.5, but my doubts usually are about me, and not God. quote: The reason for my interest in faith and certainty is that it frequently troubles me. There are two main reasons for this. Firstly - and this is a point I've made before - it's intellectual dishonesty. We simply cannot be certain - literally certain - about matters of God. And I apply this to both sides of the debate: I recently read an article about a businessman who erected a billboard advertising a support network for non-believers. My heart sank when I read that he was 'absolutely certain' there is no God. Of course he can't be. He can't be, you are right, no one can be certain there is no God. But we can be certain there is a God. Again, for a believer whose eyes have been open to His truth, we behold the evidence of His creation. Thus we are certain He is there, beyond doubt, absolutely certain that God is. quote: But the problem possibly becomes even bigger for matters of religion. The word 'faith' may be used as a synonym for religious belief, which may be claimed to be supported by evidence. But I frequently see 'faith' used in the context of religion to mean what it technically should mean - beliefs held without evidence (possibly even beliefs held because of a lack of evidence - otherwise the belief becomes no longer faith-based). Surely it becomes even more impossible (if you see what I mean) to be certain in this context. Actually websters dictionary has a few meanings for faith 1 a: allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1): fidelity to one's promises (2): sincerity of intentions 2 (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion 3(1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust: something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs definition 2 would be for Christians, and definition 3 is for atheists. quote: And finally, for me, claims of certainty undermine arguments. Both Christians and Muslims claim to be certain that their God is real. This assertion will usually be based on the conviction that their holy book is inspired by God, and/or that they've had divine experiences that leave no doubt that their God is definitely out there. I'm sure you can see the problem here: when two conflicting groups claim certainity, I'm more likely to regard both with suspicion. Yet the Muslims believe they believe in the same God as Christians and Jews, but think that basically we have Him all wrong. But even they point to the God of Abraham. So it is actually the same God, they just for some reason have decided to turn Him into something He is not. quote: That's my take. There are a whole bunch of questions I'm curious about - do Christians believe that certainty is necessary for true faith? Do they believe that God would allow a small margin for doubt in the spirit of honesty? Do they believe that certainty is justifiable? Not all Christians would probably say certainty is necessary for faith. We understand we believe in things we have never seen. But we are able to see the evidence for Him, and His truth. I do think all Christians would say they were certain though. Does God allow doubt, yes He does. Doubt makes our faith stronger, when that doubt is smashed into pieces. Do I think certainty is justifiable, yes I do. He said I AM, and I say HE IS.

humbleinspirit -> RE: Faith and certainty (6/30/2008 11:20:16 PM)
On a scale from 1 to 10 I am at a 10 that there certainly is a God! Everything in the universe is so complex to say that there isn't. Also, I know because He lives in my heart, I feel Him and know Him!

Gazingstock -> RE: Faith and certainty (6/30/2008 11:49:27 PM)
quote: The reason for my interest in faith and certainty is that it frequently troubles me. There are two main reasons for this. Firstly - and this is a point I've made before - it's intellectual dishonesty. One can be certain the supernatural is real, and I mean absolutely certain. So certain, that it would be more dishonest to deny it. It is dishonest if one does not learn to carefully discern what is true, what is false, what is of God, and what is of the god of this age: Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. -1Jo 4:1 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. -Hbr 5:14 There are differing levels of certainty based on experiences, and differing levels of reward for believing: Jesus saith unto him, "Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: Blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed." -Jhn 20:29 Proof is a matter of evidence, but evidence, is a matter of opinion. Orthodox science has admitted that we can "never" know the answers to how human language came into existence naturally: No Easy Answers In Evolution Of Human Language -Because science is merely an inquiry. One that fundamentally ruled out the supernatural explanation, no matter the evidence or witnesses. Atheism is merely Anti-theism. A rebound. Faith in non-belief.

MrFribbles -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/1/2008 12:14:11 AM)
quote: We simply cannot be certain - literally certain - about matters of God. I agree, if by certain you mean literally 0% possibility of anything else being true. There is no proof any way you look at it - and for good reason, from the Christian perspective. Christ Himself says that those who do not see, but believe anyway, are blessed! If God had wanted to give us proof, He obviously could - but He doesn't. That would kill faith. quote: The word 'faith' may be used as a synonym for religious belief, which may be claimed to be supported by evidence. I'm not sure I agree with your idea of faith. How can something be entirely without evidence? If I were to say, on a human level, "I put my faith in my oral surgeon," (which I actually did a week ago... I lost all my wisdom, alas!), it's not a blind faith. I trust the reputation of earning an oral surgery degree and the standards in place in this country. Ultimately, though, I've never met the man before, so I'm not sure he's not going to, say, replace my teeth with gummy bears. In the same way, there is evidence for God, and that doesn't negate the idea of faith. Any religion or belief that demands a blind faith is only doing so because they don't want their members questioning its beliefs, if ya' ask me. quote: I believe that false certainity is behind, say, the decision to not fund stem cell research. I don't believe that Bush would have vetoed the funding if he had only suspected that such research goes against the will of God. Many of the moral decisions made over the years have been founded in a religious belief. Some of them, of course, haven't been good; or at the very least, just annoying (prohibition, for instance). But if it weren't for religious faith, where are we to say for certainty that anything is either right or wrong? quote: Both Christians and Muslims claim to be certain that their God is real. This assertion will usually be based on the conviction that their holy book is inspired by God, and/or that they've had divine experiences that leave no doubt that their God is definitely out there. I'm sure you can see the problem here: when two conflicting groups claim certainity, I'm more likely to regard both with suspicion. Here in America (I apologize if you're also American - I just don't want to assume!), we have two political candidates running for President. Both of them claim they're the better man for the job, and they both make similar claims to this effect, but ultimately, one of them is the better man. Unfortunately, we won't know which one until November. This example is a bit inappropriate, since one could argue (easily, I imagine) that politics is subjective, not objective like religion must be. But aside from that, I hope you get my point - just because two things seem to conflict doesn't mean neither is true. quote: do Christians believe that certainty is necessary for true faith? Assuming my definition above is correct, I would, again, say that certainty kills faith. quote: Do they believe that God would allow a small margin for doubt in the spirit of honesty? Absolutely! quote: Do they believe that certainty is justifiable? Well, this one doesn't. quote: Lastly, in answer to my own poll question above, I'd put myself at -9. Heh, I've never been good with these number things. I'd put whatever number means "I see no logical possibility that there's no higher power of some sort, and the Christian view of that higher power makes the most sense to me in both a logical and experiential way."

SonInMe1 -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/1/2008 12:40:15 AM)
quote: how certain are you that your position on God is correct? My part is to believe in what I believe 100%. God's part is to correct any errors.

OneJohn410 -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/1/2008 12:40:17 AM)
My position on God... hmm... I'm going to skinny down your post to just the questions... quote: ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace 1. How certain are you that your position on God is correct? I.e., how certain are you that the Bible accurately describes the actions and motives of the creator of the universe? (Big questions, and you simply want a number from -10 to 10. That's interesting.) Suggest that respondents to this post rate themselves on a scale of -10 to +10 - where -10 is 'certain there is no God', 0 is 'competely uncertain; have no position either way' and +10 is 'competely certain the Christian God exists'. The reason for my interest in faith and certainty is that it frequently troubles me. What troubles you? This sentence makes no sense. Are you saying how they relate, or how can they both exist at the same time, or what? We simply cannot be certain - literally certain - about matters of God. We can only be certain about books we write ourselves about things we observe ourselves? What things do you consider can be taken as literal certainties? I see what I'm doing here, and it's not going to be fair to this post. This is a request before much more is replied to that you rework this one. It looks like the rest of my reply is going to be embedded in a quote of your original. I don't like this, but that's how it's happening. I'll try to italicize all my response so you can see where you've confused this reader. And I apply this to both sides of the debateWhat debate are you talking about? Is this just a debate in your own mind? Again, the IT that troubles you is unclear. : I recently read an article about a businessman who erected a billboard advertising a support network for non-believers. My heart sank when I read that he was 'absolutely certain' (quote) there is no God. Of course he can't be. But the problem The problem is IT, again, an undefined topic. possibly becomes even bigger for matters of religion. The word 'faith' may be used as a synonym for religious belief, which may be claimed to be supported by evidence. But I frequently see 'faith' used in the context of religion to mean what it technically should mean - beliefs held without evidence (possibly even beliefs held because of a lack of evidence - otherwise the belief becomes no longer faith-based). Surely it becomes even more impossible (if you see what I mean) to be certain in this context.Defining words as everyone should understand them because of how you think certainly makes whatever IT you are talking about even more impossible to follow, friend. A mysterious debate has got a hold of you. Secondly, false certainty can have terrible consequences. This is probably a more contentious point, as it could be reasonably argued that certainty is not required in the circumstances I'm about to describe. Take 9/11. I firmly believe that the 19 hijackers who committed the atrocity felt certain that Allah wanted them to carry out their heinous acts. Secondly - and not to equate this with terrorism - I believe that false certainity is behind, say, the decision to not fund stem cell research. I don't believe that Bush would have vetoed the funding if he had only suspected that such research goes against the will of God. Are these your beliefs, or things you are certain of? And finally, for me, claims of certainty undermine arguments. Both Christians and Muslims claim to be certain that their God is real. What if they believe this to be true? They are acting on their religious faiths, based on their beliefs. You can call it a claim, and they can turn around and claim that the problem is in your head, right? This assertion will usually be based on the conviction that their holy book is inspired by God, and/or that they've had divine experiences that leave no doubt that their God is definitely out there. I'm sure you can see the problem here: when two conflicting groups claim certainity, I'm more likely to regard both with suspicion. That gives IT, your debate, whatever it is you are talking about a ranking of a 100% problem. That's my take. There are a whole bunch of questions I'm curious about - do Christians believe that certainty is necessary for true faith? Do they believe that God would allow a small margin for doubt in the spirit of honesty? Do they believe that certainty is justifiable? Lastly, in answer to my own poll question above, I'd put myself at -9. Thanks for reading, AiP Ok, I've established a justifiable request that you reword your OP. Let's see what questions I can answer from in there without more clarification. 1. How certain are you that your position on God is correct? I.e., how certain are you that the Bible accurately describes the actions and motives of the creator of the universe? My position on God... Atheistinpeace, I'm flat on my face before the throne, confessing my continual failure to be all I can be for my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He lifts me up, and I'm full of praise and adoration, I strive to share that with others, I realize I fail Him again, I fall on my face with my knees to the rising sun, and the process continues. That's my position on my Creator. The role of His word in my life... I've never viewed the Bible's role in my life as being to describe God's actions and explain His motives for everything. That's not why it exists for me- it's not a how to bake a cake just like God would book. It exists for many reasons for many people, but if someone told you it is supposed to help You know the motives of God, that's not right. What it does for me is help me to realize that God IS love. do Christians believe that certainty is necessary for true faith? Maybe they do, maybe they don't. Are you going to define true faith for us, or should we use our own interpretation, even if it isn't literal enough to qualify? Do they believe that God would allow a small margin for doubt in the spirit of honesty? Do they believe that certainty is justifiable? Most believe that God is a God of love, and a God of justice, and a God of absolutes. By that I mean He's merciful, and if His mercy is not accepted, He has determined how things will be. He's the Judge of judges. It's His grace and His justice that His creation exists. I am certain God exists, and having accepted Christ as Lord and Savior, he did away with all my ratings of myself and any earthly scale I would give myself. Sure, I try to live a +10 life for God, and in His eyes He sees His resurrected Son in my place. You can't put a number on that. Please tell me more about this debate you are struggling with so I can understand your problem. OneJohn410

atheistinpeace -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/1/2008 1:44:48 AM)
Sincere thanks to everyone who has responded so far. There's quite a bit in the replies I'd like to respond to, don't have time now though, so I'll post something later. AiP

URForgiven -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/1/2008 10:14:33 AM)
*Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.* Hebrews 11:1 It is not our positions or beliefs in which we have placed our faith, out faith is in the person of Jesus Christ. He is the object of our faith, and as the object of our faith it is He who we are sure of and He who we are certain of. Faith must have an object, it does not just hang out there on its own. The certainty of our faith is not in ourselves, it is in Christ. If the object of your faith is not True, then your faith is useless. It is faith in nothing, which results in the same...nothing. The difference between Christianity and religions is that Christianity alone is based not on teachings, not on rules and laws, not on a moral code, not on tradition , and not on works. Christianity alone is based on a relationship with a Living Person. Buddha is dead, Muhammad is dead, Confucius is dead, but Christ is alive! And this person we have a relationship with, Jesus Christ, claimed to be God. And because He lives, even though He died, His claims are true. I understand your fear of faith, for faith in that which is not true, results in tragedy, as we have seen first hand. But faith in who is True, results in the only hope humanity has. You are not questioning faith, you are questioning the object of peoples faith...and that is good. Peace

LivingParadox -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/1/2008 10:32:08 AM)
Sometimes I doubt other Christians, but God -- Not a doubt.

SonInMe1 -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/1/2008 11:04:53 AM)
1 Corinthians 8:1-3 1 Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. 2 The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3 But the man who loves God is known by God. Matthew 13:13-23 13 This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' 16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17 For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it. 18 "Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22 The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23 But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown." 1 Corinthians 1:17-31 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel--not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. 18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. 26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

atheistinpeace -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/1/2008 4:07:36 PM)
Thanks again for the replies. So far, respondents are averaging out at +10 - I'm not going to include myself in the averages; would be a bit unrepresentative... I might need to clarify what I'm driving at. That's this: I'm troubled by the wide extent to which people claim to be certain about things that, in my opinion, they cannot be certain about. I cited two reasons for this, and they both still stand. 'Are you certain that the biblical God is real' probably wasn't the best example to illustrate my concern, even though I (naturally) think that there are excellent reasons to at least doubt his existence, and that these reasons should have the attention of everyone, believer or not. But this isn't the place to debate whether God is real or not. With respect to the term 'faith' - I am explicity referring to when believers acknowledge that they believe, at least to a considerable extent, blindly. On reflection, the sort of 'certainity' that I get worried by is when (and I've seen this on these boards) posts say, 'well, we know that XYZ goes to hell'; 'we know that God wants ABC...'. These are specific claims, closed to objection, about the mind of the Creator of the universe, made with the conviction of complete certainty. A humble human sat in front of their computer, claiming to know - not suspect, but know - who will suffer for eternity and who won't - that concerns me. I think it impacts badly on our public discourse, and as I described, undermines that person's whole claim to having formed their views through reason. Now if it says that XYZ will burn in hell in the Bible, and the truth of the Bible is taken as certain, then specific points therein will be accepted as certain truth. But the problem here is that we should question whether the Bible is certainly the word of a real God. GazingStock said that we can be absolutely certain that the supernatural exists, because it says so in the Bible. But it also says that that light was created after the Earth, which scientists are near enough certain is not true. There's a risk of this leading to a 'is the Bible/God real' discussion, which I'd prefer to avoid. Lastly, on the point of different religions claiming equal certainty - something I feel should not escape our attention - Islam was a bad example, being an Abrahamic religion. Take Hinduism then, or Sikhism - completely non-overlapping with Christianity, yet also followed by those who claim certainty. I'm not sure if I've raised anything explicitly new to debate here, but I thought I'd at least respond to the sentiment of the comments above. Interested to read any further musings on the subject. AiP

Leo71 -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/1/2008 4:58:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace 'Are you certain that the biblical God is real' probably wasn't the best example to illustrate my concern, even though I (naturally) think that there are excellent reasons to at least doubt his existence, and that these reasons should have the attention of everyone, believer or not. But this isn't the place to debate whether God is real or not. With respect to the term 'faith' - I am explicity referring to when believers acknowledge that they believe, at least to a considerable extent, blindly. There are no excellent reasons to doubt God's existence. They might be excellent to your way of thinking, but the sheer splendor and complexity of the entire universe say otherwise. Moreover, I am not sure I'm understanding you fully when you mention believers acknowledging that they believe, at least to a considerable extent, blindly. There's nothing blind about it. The things that were made are testimony enough. Even so, God does prove Himself to the believer, which is why we can say with absolute certainty that He exists. quote: On reflection, the sort of 'certainity' that I get worried by is when (and I've seen this on these boards) posts say, 'well, we know that XYZ goes to hell'; 'we know that God wants ABC...'. These are specific claims, closed to objection, about the mind of the Creator of the universe, made with the conviction of complete certainty. A humble human sat in front of their computer, claiming to know - not suspect, but know - who will suffer for eternity and who won't - that concerns me. I think it impacts badly on our public discourse, and as I described, undermines that person's whole claim to having formed their views through reason. Well, we do know what God's word says (those of us who know the word, that is), and we know what God's Spirit reveals in our hearts. Some are deceived, however, or else puffed up with a "religious spirit". Some of us have simply strayed from the fold, and shouldn't be so quick to "send people to hell" when we've got our own sins to confess. quote: Now if it says that XYZ will burn in hell in the Bible, and the truth of the Bible is taken as certain, then specific points therein will be accepted as certain truth. But the problem here is that we should question whether the Bible is certainly the word of a real God. GazingStock said that we can be absolutely certain that the supernatural exists, because it says so in the Bible. But it also says that that light was created after the Earth, which scientists are near enough certain is not true. There's a risk of this leading to a 'is the Bible/God real' discussion, which I'd prefer to avoid. Which scientists are "near enough certain"? And were they actually present when the Earth and the sun were created? Anyway, we do not question whether the Bible is the word of a real God. Because it is.

URForgiven -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/1/2008 5:07:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace Thanks again for the replies. So far, respondents are averaging out at +10 - I'm not going to include myself in the averages; would be a bit unrepresentative... I might need to clarify what I'm driving at. That's this: I'm troubled by the wide extent to which people claim to be certain about things that, in my opinion, they cannot be certain about. I cited two reasons for this, and they both still stand. 'Are you certain that the biblical God is real' probably wasn't the best example to illustrate my concern, even though I (naturally) think that there are excellent reasons to at least doubt his existence, and that these reasons should have the attention of everyone, believer or not. But this isn't the place to debate whether God is real or not. With respect to the term 'faith' - I am explicity referring to when believers acknowledge that they believe, at least to a considerable extent, blindly. On reflection, the sort of 'certainity' that I get worried by is when (and I've seen this on these boards) posts say, 'well, we know that XYZ goes to hell'; 'we know that God wants ABC...'. These are specific claims, closed to objection, about the mind of the Creator of the universe, made with the conviction of complete certainty. A humble human sat in front of their computer, claiming to know - not suspect, but know - who will suffer for eternity and who won't - that concerns me. I think it impacts badly on our public discourse, and as I described, undermines that person's whole claim to having formed their views through reason. Now if it says that XYZ will burn in hell in the Bible, and the truth of the Bible is taken as certain, then specific points therein will be accepted as certain truth. But the problem here is that we should question whether the Bible is certainly the word of a real God. GazingStock said that we can be absolutely certain that the supernatural exists, because it says so in the Bible. But it also says that that light was created after the Earth, which scientists are near enough certain is not true. There's a risk of this leading to a 'is the Bible/God real' discussion, which I'd prefer to avoid. Lastly, on the point of different religions claiming equal certainty - something I feel should not escape our attention - Islam was a bad example, being an Abrahamic religion. Take Hinduism then, or Sikhism - completely non-overlapping with Christianity, yet also followed by those who claim certainty. I'm not sure if I've raised anything explicitly new to debate here, but I thought I'd at least respond to the sentiment of the comments above. Interested to read any further musings on the subject. AiP Christianity is not relative, it is absolute. It is based on truth, and truth is by nature absolute. Also, belief is not the same thing as faith. Perhaps if you cogitate on what has already been shared with you, it will become more clear. Peace

atheistinpeace -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/1/2008 5:21:53 PM)
I think it's worth letting this thread die down... I'm not sure this is a good topic to debate. Most of what I want to say in response to replies posted would end up being too tangential. E.g., the reasons we should at least question the Bible's veracity - which for me is just one of the reasons why we should never say we are certain about our position with respect to God. In short, to challenge certainty would be to challenge the fundamentals of the Christian faith, which I don't want to do in this forum at all, least of all this thread. Nonetheless, thanks to those who took the time to reply. AiP

SavedByGraceMD -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/1/2008 5:57:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace I think it's worth letting this thread die down... I'm not sure this is a good topic to debate. Most of what I want to say in response to replies posted would end up being too tangential. E.g., the reasons we should at least question the Bible's veracity - which for me is just one of the reasons why we should never say we are certain about our position with respect to God. In short, to challenge certainty would be to challenge the fundamentals of the Christian faith, which I don't want to do in this forum at all, least of all this thread. Nonetheless, thanks to those who took the time to reply. AiP Aha, so we got you stumped[;)], nice talking to you.

bosoxdd -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/1/2008 6:48:37 PM)
i just cant understand why atheists come to these forums.Sure we welcome them here in hopes they will change their ways and hearts.But unless they are here to try to find GOD why bother coming here.Idont believe in Santa Claus and if there was a forum debating if hes real or not the last thing i would do is waste any part of my life arguing over it.

BibleL7 -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/1/2008 11:01:26 PM)
Well hope ya come back, if you do you might consider that you have put too much emphasis on the word certainty which perhaps you should not. Ya see if some one is certain of something that is simply stating in their mind there is no doubt. So with that said I would say that as an atheist I would have rated myself as -10 yet now would have to say +10. There is a God His word is in the Bible. And I am proof that He changes lives. nuff said

OneJohn410 -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/1/2008 11:49:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace I think it's worth letting this thread die down... I'm not sure this is a good topic to debate. Most of what I want to say in response to replies posted would end up being too tangential. E.g., the reasons we should at least question the Bible's veracity - which for me is just one of the reasons why we should never say we are certain about our position with respect to God. In short, to challenge certainty would be to challenge the fundamentals of the Christian faith, which I don't want to do in this forum at all, least of all this thread. Nonetheless, thanks to those who took the time to reply. AiP I'm sorry to read this. I was hoping you'd quit hiding behind your big words and just out and explain what's got you troubled. I'm not saying I'd try to make it all better for you, or say you were wrong for being troubled about it. God's already got all the positions of everything figured out, including those of everyone in His creation. Omnipotence... there's a big word for you. It's a powerful, awesome, humbling, and ominous thing to believe in Someone who created all and yet cares for you and for me. Light was created after the Earth, the Bible says. That's interesting, but to be certain, you didn't quote where in the Bible you spotted this. Were you looking at the gospel of John chapter 1? But what is this... you didn't like my request to be any clearer, so why should I ask for any certainty? Per your request, I'll let this one die down, faithfully and certainly. OneJohn410

SonInMe1 -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/2/2008 3:04:24 AM)
To have interpretive disagreements does not lessen the message or its truth. God is God...and we are not God. We can't fully understand God and hopefully we don't interpret the bible through prejudice, though this happens a lot. We can only go on as...we go on. Trusting God to help us and guide us to His truth. I know. That sounds like excuse making for our imperfections and poor interpretations. Maybe in some ways it is. However, it is the truth. I am not God and I am sure some of my interpretations are imperfect. I trust God to correct me in whatever form He sees fit to do so. Please do not reject God because His followers are imperfect. When christianity is defined by christians...heaven help us. I can only tell you the truth. Jesus loves you...dearly. He wants to know you as much as He wants you to know Him. In knowing Him, you must accept that not everything is going to become crystal clear. Any christian who tells you they know it all...is sinning. I pray He will reveal Himself to you in a very direct fashion. Some road to Damascus way. I have a feeling as a christian...you will be...formidable.

atheistinpeace -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/2/2008 3:33:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bosoxdd i just cant understand why atheists come to these forums.Sure we welcome them here in hopes they will change their ways and hearts.But unless they are here to try to find GOD why bother coming here.Idont believe in Santa Claus and if there was a forum debating if hes real or not the last thing i would do is waste any part of my life arguing over it. Bosoxdd Firstly, debate is interesting and healthy. When conducted civilly, it's often constructive too. I'm here to learn more about the beliefs of about 2,000,000,000 who share this planet with me. That can't be a bad thing. On the flip side, I encounter misconceptions about atheism almost everytime I start a thread: if I've corrected just one damaging misconception, then I make no apologies for that. Secondly, when you were a child, were you indoctrinated with the belief that Santa Claus will make you suffer for ever in a big pit of fire and anguish and pain if you don't believe in him? Did this cause you at least a decade of constant fear? Did you spend all that time trying to reconcile massive differences between what Santa's followers tell you with things you know about the natural world? And do the actions of a minority of Santa's followers genuiniely worry you: for example, has anyone gone to war with another country because they believed Santa told them too? Or has anyone helped perpetuate the spread of HIV in Africa by declaring that Santa hates condoms? Apologies if that's a little aggressive, but I hope you see what I mean, and why I take an interest in religion. Thanks for the other replies to my 'closing statement' (!); I'll reply to as many as possible later on. AiP

atheistinpeace -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/2/2008 3:54:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BibleL7 Well hope ya come back, if you do you might consider that you have put too much emphasis on the word certainty which perhaps you should not. Ya see if some one is certain of something that is simply stating in their mind there is no doubt. So with that said I would say that as an atheist I would have rated myself as -10 yet now would have to say +10. There is a God His word is in the Bible. And I am proof that He changes lives. nuff said Don't worry, I will be back! The emphasis on 'certainty' was intentional, as that's exactly what I wanted to talk about. But as I've described, if I say certainty is bad, believers say 'but we are certain', the only logical next step is for me to pick on specific points that amount to a very broad challenge to Christianity, which isn't the subject of this thread, and not the reason for me being a member here. Interesting, though, that you were a -10 when you were an atheist. When I was a believer, I'm really not sure if I was a +10 or a +9... probably a +10, as at the time I hadn't gained an appreciation for things like the scientific method, and the circumstances that dictate we cannot be certain about much at all, least of all God. Hmmm. AiP

atheistinpeace -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/2/2008 4:01:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OneJohn410 I'm sorry to read this. I was hoping you'd quit hiding behind your big words and just out and explain what's got you troubled. I'm not saying I'd try to make it all better for you, or say you were wrong for being troubled about it. God's already got all the positions of everything figured out, including those of everyone in His creation. Omnipotence... there's a big word for you. It's a powerful, awesome, humbling, and ominous thing to believe in Someone who created all and yet cares for you and for me. Light was created after the Earth, the Bible says. That's interesting, but to be certain, you didn't quote where in the Bible you spotted this. Were you looking at the gospel of John chapter 1? But what is this... you didn't like my request to be any clearer, so why should I ask for any certainty? Per your request, I'll let this one die down, faithfully and certainly. OneJohn410 Not a particularly helpful post. I've explicitly explained what concerns me about certainty. Where am I hiding behind big words? And I took your post into account when I submitted post#12, which included a clarification of what bothers me, so I don't know why you think I didn't like your request to be clearer. If there's anything I missed that you feel particularly merited my attention, I apologise. The passage in the Bible I was referring to is Genesis 1:1-3. To be honest, I thought that was obvious! AiP

Ezra -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/2/2008 5:27:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace We could read this handle as "a theist in peace" or "atheist in peace". Anyhow let's address your questions. quote: My main question is this: how certain are you that your position on God is correct? (I.e., for the vast majority here, how certain are you that the Bible accurately describes the actions and motives of the creator of the universe?) Absolutely. The Bible is the Word of God -- a revelation from the Creator to His creatures via prophets and apostles. quote: Suggest that respondents to this post rate themselves on a scale of -10 to +10 - where -10 is 'certain there is no God', 0 is 'competely uncertain; have no position either way' and +10 is 'competely certain the Christian God exists'. +10 is the only response for a Christian, and it is not "the Christian God" (as though there might be others). It is God. period. Or, the Lord God Almighty. quote: The reason for my interest in faith and certainty is that it frequently troubles me. There are two main reasons for this. Firstly - and this is a point I've made before - it's intellectual dishonesty. We simply cannot be certain - literally certain - about matters of God. Why should it "trouble" you if you are an atheist? And why is it intellectually "dishonest" to be absolutely certain about God? If there is any real certainty in the universe, it is God. Everything else is relatively uncertain. quote: But the problem possibly becomes even bigger for matters of religion. The word 'faith' may be used as a synonym for religious belief, which may be claimed to be supported by evidence. But I frequently see 'faith' used in the context of religion to mean what it technically should mean - beliefs held without evidence (possibly even beliefs held because of a lack of evidence - otherwise the belief becomes no longer faith-based). Surely it becomes even more impossible (if you see what I mean) to be certain in this context. You seem to be making things unnecessarily complicated. The Christian's faith is indeed based upon evidence in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ. We have a historical record on His coming to earth, living a sinless life, and dying for our sins, and rising again for our justification. These are not mere fables. Men gave their lives for their absolute confidence in this Gospel and the reality of Christ. quote: Secondly, false certainty can have terrible consequences. Right. That is why you should carefully read the Bible and see what it has to say about life, death, and life after death. quote: And finally, for me, claims of certainty undermine arguments. Christians are not required to "argue" the validity of their faith. We are simply to proclaim the truth of the Gospel. Whether you believe or not is entirely up to you, but your response will determine your eternal destiny. quote: That's my take. There are a whole bunch of questions I'm curious about - do Christians believe that certainty is necessary for true faith? Absolutely. If we ourselves cannot believe without the shadow of a doubt that Christ died for our sins and rose again for our justification, we could not in good conscience proclaim this as the Good News which all men should hear and believe. quote: Do they believe that God would allow a small margin for doubt in the spirit of honesty? No. That would be calling God a liar. The Gospel is the Gospel of God, not of men. And it leaves no room for doubt. Believe it or reject it. quote: Do they believe that certainty is justifiable? More than justifiable. God Himself has given us the record of His Son (1 Jn. 5:11-13).

Walker311 -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/2/2008 6:59:35 AM)
Ro:1:20: For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: God has revealed Himself in all that we see.

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