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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/9/2008 11:26:46 PM
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Method
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ORIGINAL: Carico
Evolution is indeed an atheist belief for the sole reason to deny God.
Wrong. It is a scientific theory in biology used to explain and understand biodiversity.
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If Darwin had believed the biblical account of creation, it would never have even occurred to him to form the impossible scenario of evolution.
If Galileo had believed the geocentric verses in the Bible he would have never dared to form the impossible idea that the Earth orbits the Sun.
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No one even went looking for evidence of his ridulous theory until 50 years after he first published it.
Origin of Species contains evidence supporting his theory.
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So it's unbelievers who believe in evolution whether they are open about their unbelief or disguised as sheep.
Then there are over 10,000 christian clergy that are unbelievers.
http://www.butler.edu/clergyproject/Clergy_project.htm
Your position is so untenable that it leads to the stunning conclusion that 10,000 christian clergy are actually unbelievers.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/9/2008 11:27:39 PM
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drj11
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God is very clear how he created the world, how long it took him to create the world, how He created man in Genesis. In fact, it takes delieberate effort to change genesis 2:7 into; " For the Lord God created man from the wombs of apes.".
Actually, "he gave" two conflicting accounts of creation, in two separate texts, probably written by at least two authors which were later combined together by someone else. Not exactly clear at all.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/9/2008 11:29:18 PM
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Carico
Posts: 531
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drj11
quote:
God is very clear how he created the world, how long it took him to create the world, how He created man in Genesis. In fact, it takes delieberate effort to change genesis 2:7 into; " For the Lord God created man from the wombs of apes.".
Actually, "he gave" two conflicting accounts of creation, in two separate texts, probably written by at least two authors which were later combined together by someone else. Not exactly clear at all.
Sorry but God doesn't contradict himself. In Genesis 1 God tells us that he created man and woman. In Genesis 2, God tells us how he created man and woman. So you need to put the bible together instead of make it contradict itself which it does not do.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/9/2008 11:35:54 PM
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drj11
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
Sorry but God doesn't contradict himself. In Genesis 1 God tells us that he created man and woman. In Genesis 2, God tells us how he created man and woman. So you need to put the bible together instead of make it contradict itself which it does not do.
There's no contradiction only if you start engaging in the same type of interpretation that the 'non-literalistic' camp engages in (that the literalist camp also vilifies them for). In other words, you have to depart from the plain meaning and start massaging and bending the words to make it a coherent text. Either that or you give yourself justification for dismissing clearly contradictory passages by saying "Well, they don't mesh because each chapter has a different purpose.. the contradictions arent important". Kind of like when a catholic might say "Genesis isnt supposed to be scientific".
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/9/2008 11:40:17 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
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quote:
God is very clear how he created the world, how long it took him to create the world, how He created man in Genesis. In fact, it takes delieberate effort to change genesis 2:7 into; " For the Lord God created man from the wombs of apes.".
I don't disagree with this at all, but I do not believe that being a fool and falling to sin once in a while denies you salvation. God's children, including you and I, sin and are accountable for that, but we are still God's children are we not? Yes, people often interpret God's Word incorrectly, but that does not deny one salvation. I often interpret a verse incorrectly, and it is through studying (2 Tim 2:15) that I find out I'm wrong. "Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Nowhere in that verse does it say you must denounce evolution to be saved. People are allowed to be fools, and I for one am often foolish and stumble, but it is the grace and mercy of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ that picks me up and dusts me off. That is just life my friend, and one's foolishness is no worse that yours or mine. Sin is sin...
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/10/2008 12:41:19 AM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
You and I are much alike Carico (I'm not neither an animal nor a evolutionist by ANY means), but this is something I just don't believe. I don't think that a requirement for salvation is to believe in the literal account of creation, even though it is what I believe.
Thank you. This is reasonable. Likewise I do not think your salvation is imperiled because you interpret the scriptures differently than I do.
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I think one is sadly fooled if they put their trust in evolution,
Christians who accept evolution as a natural process that accounts for the biological history of life on this planet do not "put their trust" in evolution. We put our trust, as you do, in Christ. I, too, think one is sadly fooled if they put their trust in evolution. However, putting one's trust in Christ does not require rejecting the facts of evolution.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/10/2008 2:52:29 PM
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evry1needsgod
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Likewise I do not think your salvation is imperiled because you interpret the scriptures differently than I do.
It depends on which parts of the Bible you misinterpret and how badly you do so. But, I think Christ was very clear on the salvation message.
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However, putting one's trust in Christ does not require rejecting the facts of evolution.
You meant "However, putting one's trust in Christ does not require rejecting their belief in evolution" right? Because there are no facts, just ones interpretation of facts.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/10/2008 3:13:01 PM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
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From: North Carolina!
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So it's unbelievers who believe in evolution whether they are open about their unbelief or disguised as sheep. In fact, the theory of evolution proves that Satan exists because no rational person would believe that apes can turn into people unless they were greatly deceived. So Satan is the only explanation for the theory of evolution.
Hi Carico,
I have you blocked so don't bother to respond I guess, sorry.
But I wanted to say, indeed, I am not offended if you call me an unbeliever for entertaining the TOE. I do not know whether you are right to be honest. I can see that you are earnest in that belief, so I don't mind. I will consider it.
However, why then do I have you blocked? Dunno. People quote you tho, so i get some of it.
later
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/10/2008 4:44:13 PM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
Because there are no facts, just ones interpretation of facts.
The nested hierarchy is a fact. It is also a fact that the theory of evolution predicts one should observe a nested hierarhcy. When theories make accurate predictions they are tentatively accepted, no belief needed.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/10/2008 6:17:44 PM
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evry1needsgod
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When theories make accurate predictions they are tentatively accepted, no belief needed.
I just created a new theory, and It has been proven true by Method's logic, so I felt I should publish my findings and make millions, so here it is.
The Boogyman exists! My theory states that the boogyman is in my t.v. remote. It is theorized he controls my batteries. When those batteries run out of power, he goes on vacation until I put new batteries in the remote. My theory also states that when I press power, the Boogyman wakes up from his nap, works his magic with the batteries, and my t.v. miraculously turns on.
If my theory is true, here are a couple predictions that must come true...
1. With new batteries in the remote, if I press the power button, my t.v. will turn on.
2. If I play a trick on the Boogyman and take the batteries OUT, THEN press power, the t.v. should not turn on.
If there are new batteries in the remote and the t.v. does not turn on, or if there are NO batteries in the remote and yet the t.v. turns on, my theory is falsified.
BUT, after 150 years (actually about 30 seconds) of tests, experiments, and observations, both predictions came true, which proves my theory is fact by "When theories make accurate predictions they are tentatively accepted, no belief needed." After all, my predictions proved accurate.
Conclusion: IT IS FACT...THE BOOGYMAN EXISTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
p.s. this is what evolutionists ask people to believe. Sorry, but I refuse to let myself be brainwashed by it.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/10/2008 6:30:07 PM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
When theories make accurate predictions they are tentatively accepted, no belief needed.
I just created a new theory, and It has been proven true by Method's logic, so I felt I should publish my findings and make millions, so here it is.
The Boogyman exists! My theory states that the boogyman is in my t.v. remote. It is theorized he controls my batteries. When those batteries run out of power, he goes on vacation until I put new batteries in the remote. My theory also states that when I press power, the Boogyman wakes up from his nap, works his magic with the batteries, and my t.v. miraculously turns on.
If my theory is true, here are a couple predictions that must come true...
1. With new batteries in the remote, if I press the power button, my t.v. will turn on.
2. If I play a trick on the Boogyman and take the batteries OUT, THEN press power, the t.v. should not turn on.
If there are new batteries in the remote and the t.v. does not turn on, or if there are NO batteries in the remote and yet the t.v. turns on, my theory is falsified.
BUT, after 150 years (actually about 30 seconds) of tests, experiments, and observations, both predictions came true, which proves my theory is fact by "When theories make accurate predictions they are tentatively accepted, no belief needed." After all, my predictions proved accurate.
Conclusion: IT IS FACT...THE BOOGYMAN EXISTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
p.s. this is what evolutionists ask people to believe. Sorry, but I refuse to let myself be brainwashed by it.
You are missing a mechanism. Evolution has them (mutation, selection, speciation) but you lack a mechanism by which the boogeyman controls the batteries. For the two to be the same you need to observe the bogeyman at work just as scientists have observed the mechanisms of mutation, selection, and speciation at work.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/10/2008 7:22:26 PM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 1025
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From: Inglewood, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Method
You are missing a mechanism. Evolution has them (mutation, selection, speciation) but you lack a mechanism by which the boogeyman controls the batteries. For the two to be the same you need to observe the bogeyman at work just as scientists have observed the mechanisms of mutation, selection, and speciation at work.
I would also point out that, when there are many competing theories, the best theory is the one favored by science. If two theories describe the evidence equally well, science prefers the more parsimonious explanation. I believe there are boogyman-less theories of television that explain the data just as well.
Of course, maybe there really is a boogyman. Parsimony carries no guarantees, but without any positive reason to suggest the existence of a boogyman, scientific theories will get along just fine without him, making accurate predictions. This is not to say that the standard scientific theory of television is aboogymanistic. It simply doesn't refer to boogyman at all.
Similarly, the scientific theory of evolution is boogyman-less. This does not mean that there is no boogyman, just that he doesn't appear to be a necessary addition to the theory. Evolution is not aboogymanistic. It just has no need to refer to a boogyman. Boogymanistic evolutionists generally believe in the boogyman for (I think) nonscientific reasons, but this does not prevent them from understanding why evolution is the best scientific theory, even if it doesn't even mention something as important to them as the boogyman.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/10/2008 8:31:37 PM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
Likewise I do not think your salvation is imperiled because you interpret the scriptures differently than I do.
It depends on which parts of the Bible you misinterpret and how badly you do so. But, I think Christ was very clear on the salvation message.
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However, putting one's trust in Christ does not require rejecting the facts of evolution.
You meant "However, putting one's trust in Christ does not require rejecting their belief in evolution" right? Because there are no facts, just ones interpretation of facts.
Nonsense, there can be no interpretation of facts without observed facts.
DNA sequences are facts. That DNA sequences change is a fact. That such changes are inheritable is a fact. That such changes may (not necessarily will) be expressed as changes in morphology or some other inheritable trait is a fact. That such variants may become more or less common in a species is a fact.
Interpret them how you will, they remain observed facts requiring interpretation.
Evolution interprets them all with elegant and consistent logic. I don't know of anything else that does--including design.
So I stand by my original statement. For evolution does not require belief.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/10/2008 8:33:52 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
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So I stand by my original statement. For evolution does not require belief.
Stand by it all you want, it won't change anything.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/10/2008 9:48:19 PM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
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So I stand by my original statement. For evolution does not require belief.
Stand by it all you want, it won't change anything.
Exactly my point. Believe what you want. It doesn't change reality.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/10/2008 9:54:09 PM
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Carico
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gluadys
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ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
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So I stand by my original statement. For evolution does not require belief.
Stand by it all you want, it won't change anything.
Exactly my point. Believe what you want. It doesn't change reality.
Nope it doesn't. And neither can calling a human an ape make apes and humans capable of breeding each other as descendants. 
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/10/2008 11:51:28 PM
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Method
Posts: 1096
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
Nope it doesn't. And neither can calling a human an ape make apes and humans capable of breeding each other as descendants.
Then humor me. Give me a description of what an ape is that uses shared morphological features of all apes (chimps, gorillas, gibbons, orangutans, bonobos).
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/14/2008 8:31:18 PM
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Godhead
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The Bible was given to us so that we may gain knowledge of sin, not science.
It is irrelevant as to what the Bible doesn’t say about the universe, even if it did say that the world was flat (And it doesn’t) That would not matter. The current knowledge of the world and universe was not an issue. They knew everything that we need to know about Sin and its cure. The Bible will always be relevant. It may not tell us everything about the galaxy, but it does tell us everything about sin. Science may have made some good discoveries and stuff, but it has not changed that fact that we are still sinners and still suffer the consequences of sin. We still die, and suffer and all that. Even today our knowledge of science is not perfect, and never will be, but our knowledge of sin will be if we read the Bible. The Bible deals with sin not science. It deals with the nature of man not the nature of the universe. Discovering what makes a bacteria tick, is nothing compared to knowing what makes the human soul tick. The Bible has been showing that for thousands of years. So the Bible is fare from outdated, for we are still the same kind of men in nature as they where 2000 years ago. Men still need saving from their sin. Knowing that the Earth is round, does not change that.
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ORIGINAL: Method
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ORIGINAL: Carico
Evolution is indeed an atheist belief for the sole reason to deny God.
Wrong. It is a scientific theory in biology used to explain and understand biodiversity.
How does a belief in evolution help to understand life. Life on this planet is not evolving, but is continually being created by a process started by God. Evolution is a lie and so cannot help in any way to understand life. It only helps people to disregard God and His plan for us.
_____________________________
But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. (Psalm 49:15)
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/14/2008 10:55:28 PM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
The current knowledge of the world and universe was not an issue. They knew everything that we need to know about Sin and its cure. The Bible will always be relevant. It may not tell us everything about the galaxy, but it does tell us everything about sin.
True. The bible does not have to be a science book. So we should not worry about what science is revealing. Science tells us nothing about sin and redemption, so it is really irrelevant to the biblical message.
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How does a belief in evolution help to understand life.
Depends on what you mean by "understanding" life. Does evolution help us understand what makes a body tick, how it develops, what can go wrong with it, etc. Definitely.
Does evolution tell us why we are alive, what the meaning and purpose of our life is, why we need redemption, and how we can find life eternal? Nope, doesn't say a thing about any of that.
So depending on the sort of understanding you are looking for, evolution can be very helpful or quite useless.
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Life on this planet is not evolving, but is continually being created by a process started by God.
How do you know that continual process is not evolution?
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/15/2008 11:01:39 AM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
How does a belief in evolution help to understand life.
The theory of evolution is used in genetics to discover gene function (called gene annotation). Phylogenomics uses evolutionary distance and the theory of evolution to compare genomes and predict gene function.
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PLoS Comput Biol. 2005 Oct;1(5):e45. Epub 2005 Oct 7.
Protein molecular function prediction by Bayesian phylogenomics.
Engelhardt BE, Jordan MI, Muratore KE, Brenner SE.
Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Sciences, University of California, Berkeley, California, United States of America. bee@cs.berkeley.edu
We present a statistical graphical model to infer specific molecular function for unannotated protein sequences using homology. Based on phylogenomic principles, SIFTER (Statistical Inference of Function Through Evolutionary Relationships) accurately predicts molecular function for members of a protein family given a reconciled phylogeny and available function annotations, even when the data are sparse or noisy. Our method produced specific and consistent molecular function predictions across 100 Pfam families in comparison to the Gene Ontology annotation database, BLAST, GOtcha, and Orthostrapper. We performed a more detailed exploration of functional predictions on the adenosine-5'-monophosphate/adenosine deaminase family and the lactate/malate dehydrogenase family, in the former case comparing the predictions against a gold standard set of published functional characterizations. Given function annotations for 3% of the proteins in the deaminase family, SIFTER achieves 96% accuracy in predicting molecular function for experimentally characterized proteins as reported in the literature. The accuracy of SIFTER on this dataset is a significant improvement over other currently available methods such as BLAST (75%), GeneQuiz (64%), GOtcha (89%), and Orthostrapper (11%). We also experimentally characterized the adenosine deaminase from Plasmodium falciparum, confirming SIFTER's prediction. The results illustrate the predictive power of exploiting a statistical model of function evolution in phylogenomic problems. A software implementation of SIFTER is available from the authors.
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Life on this planet is not evolving, but is continually being created by a process started by God.
Simple experiments like the Luria-Delbruck fluctuation experiment and the Lederberg-Lederberg plate replica experiment demonstrate that life is still evolving through the processes of random mutation (with respect to fitness) and natural selection.
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Evolution is a lie and so cannot help in any way to understand life.
Then why can it be used successfully to understand life, as shown above?
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It only helps people to disregard God and His plan for us.
Tell that to the 40% of biologists who are christians.
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/17/2008 11:37:19 PM
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Godhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Method
The theory of evolution is used in genetics to discover gene function (called gene annotation). Phylogenomics uses evolutionary distance and the theory of evolution to compare genomes and predict gene function.
You can study all that without the idea of evolution. Evolution is not happening at all, it has no basis in reality. Evolution is only a belief system that you use to perceive the world around you. You look at life and think evolution. In fact scientist use sophistry (A deliberately invalid argument displaying ingenuity in reasoning in the hope of deceiving someone. A clever but misleading argument.) To explain their theories and that’s exactly what you do as well. There is no evidence to support evolution, but you and others like you, want to make everything fit the theory. Tell me something, have you seen a particular species slowly transform into another one?
_____________________________
But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. (Psalm 49:15)
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/17/2008 11:43:17 PM
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Godhead
Posts: 329
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Method
Simple experiments like the Luria-Delbruck fluctuation experiment and the Lederberg-Lederberg plate replica experiment demonstrate that life is still evolving through the processes of random mutation (with respect to fitness) and natural selection.
Actually, no, all life is created through procreation, and the species of every animal has remained constant so fare. What you said here is a perfect example of using Sophistry to back up an invalided argument. Those experiments are nowhere even close to proving evolution in any sense.
_____________________________
But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. (Psalm 49:15)
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/17/2008 11:56:38 PM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 1025
Joined: 10/14/2007
From: Inglewood, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
Tell me something, have you seen a particular species slowly transform into another one?
Tell me something, have you seen Pluto complete a revolution about the sun?
The answer is no, for it takes Pluto 248 years to do so. And Pluto was only discovered some 78 years ago. No one has or could have seen Pluto complete an orbit around the Sun. Nevertheless, modern experiments on a human timescale point ineluctably to a conclusion that Pluto has orbited the sun.
Similarly, current observations of evolution in action, combined with the physical evidence of the fossil record, make it just as certain that species have evolved over long periods of time.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Don't be afraid of scientific theory - 7/18/2008 2:16:42 AM
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Real_Solitude
Posts: 386
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quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
Tell me something, have you seen a particular species slowly transform into another one?
Tell me something, have you seen Pluto complete a revolution about the sun?
The answer is no, for it takes Pluto 248 years to do so. And Pluto was only discovered some 78 years ago. No one has or could have seen Pluto complete an orbit around the Sun. Nevertheless, modern experiments on a human timescale point ineluctably to a conclusion that Pluto has orbited the sun.
Similarly, current observations of evolution in action, combined with the physical evidence of the fossil record, make it just as certain that species have evolved over long periods of time.
This ignoring the evolutionary changes that have been documented.
The shift in Lenski's E. Coli is my new favorite example, simply because of the story attached to it.
For a look at the shift in this E. Coli, Click Here.
That link doesn't have anything about the fun that followed.
_____________________________
"Instead of feeling alone in a group its better to have real solitude all by yourself."
~Faye Valentine
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