RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/08) in Nevada.
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 6/28/2008 6:10:55 PM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
I knew there was something suspicious about Jackie Chan's movies, aside from bad acting.
Hey, don't diss Jackie! Rush Hour was the best!
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 6/30/2008 11:55:50 AM
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Leo71
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quote:
It's a place where the worlds and leaders of worlds gather. Don't ask me, but some I know fear the Olympics.
Well, I do know of the Scripture that refers to the ten kings/leaders who will sit down and, in one hour, hand over all authority to the Beast. However, I don't think that will end up being the case at the Olympics, of all places.
Then again, there are two basic truths I can stand on with absolute certainty:
1.) There is a God
2.) I am definitely not Him.
Peace~
_____________________________
What you did yesterday is your reputation.
What you do today is your future.
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 6/30/2008 12:05:23 PM
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TorchHeart
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Cloud9lives
The Antichrist has often resided in New Jersey (the Garden State) and is now currently in Nevada.
This actually explains the blackjack dealer at the table I was playing at the last time I was in Vegas. NOBODY by the living embodiment of Satan can hit on 16 that many times and always manage to find a card lower than 5.
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/2/2008 2:34:04 PM
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nickie18
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Cloud9lives
The Antichrist has often resided in New Jersey (the Garden State) and is now currently in Nevada.
You should never ever post something like this, without anything actually saying that he is here. Give us your reason's why you think he is here at least. All it does is scare people. If you're going to post something like this, than you have no idea how serious this really is. Read, the bible learn something, before doing something like this again. Think before acting, or saying anything. And no one should be mean, or make bad remarks, to this person. Help him, don't be mean. Because, if he isn't a Christian, or don't know God, and he see's everything that everyone posts. He is just going to turn away from God. Pray for him.
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/2/2008 2:44:46 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nickie18
quote:
ORIGINAL: Cloud9lives
The Antichrist has often resided in New Jersey (the Garden State) and is now currently in Nevada.
You should never ever post something like this, without anything actually saying that he is here. Give us your reason's why you think he is here at least. All it does is scare people...
Uhmmm... Why should knowing that the antichrist is alive scare a believer? Seriously.
Fact is, the Apostle John wrote in one of the few places we find that mentions antichrist that the antichrist "is already in the world" and that "many antichrists have appeared" in his day.
So this isn't news to believers that read the Bible instead of Tim LaHaye or Hal Lindsay for the facts.
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/4/2008 7:47:36 PM
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cwb
Posts: 153
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Cloud9lives
The Antichrist has often resided in New Jersey (the Garden State) and is now currently in Nevada.
Believers will not see antiChrist. The Rapture will precede his unveiling.
That's not to say he's not rollin' the dice right now cloud, but we won't see him.
_____________________________
We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/5/2008 3:51:08 AM
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1love1God1way
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Important Message
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/5/2008 8:39:27 AM
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Sinner-Saint
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
Believers will not see antiChrist. The Rapture will precede his unveiling.
This discussion of the Abominations of the Desolator segues to the Man of Lawlessness in the sequence of events leading up Christ’s return in Paul’s epistle in Thessalonians. Paul lays out a sequence of events that will precede Christ’s coming. Like much of the Bible, Paul uses a linear sequence format providing evidence that Christ’s parousias, or coming, had not yet occurred. The Thessalonians mistakenly thought the Coming of the Lord had already occurred. Paul corrects that mistake:
2TH 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.
The first thing that Paul does is link the coming of our Lord Jesus with the gathering. Paul also establishes the Day of the Lord as being the Day of Christ with his parousias. As stated, the order is implied of one and then the other by linking through the conjunction ‘and’. By stating it as he does, Paul mirrors what Jesus explains in the Olivet Discourse: The Son of Man comes and the Elect are gathered to Him. This can be confirmed from Paul’s first letter where he clearly spells out the order:
1TH 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Here, Paul gives the order that Jesus comes down from Heaven. The dead in Christ are then raised first and with the ordering “after that” those who are still alive and are left are gathered. So the initial coming of Christ is for the Elect. They are gathered after He comes, meeting the Elect at the halfway point in the clouds. Furthermore, this happens on the same day as Paul continues on in his second letter because he states “that day” linking the two to a single day.
2TH 2:3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
Because of the use of until as a conjunction, the order here is reversed. However, by restating the condition Paul lays down shows two events which must precede the Day of the Lord. By putting the conditional clauses first, a normal order can be reestablished. First Rebellion occurs and then the Man of Lawlessness is revealed and both these precede the coming of Christ. The first overall sequence of events can be delineated thus as:
• The Rebellion
• Man of lawlessness is revealed
• Second coming of our Lord
• Our being gathering to Him
...o Dead in Christ
...o Those who are alive and are left
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/5/2008 11:56:08 AM
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Sophie11
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Important Message
LOL! 
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/5/2008 1:55:22 PM
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cwb
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
Believers will not see antiChrist. The Rapture will precede his unveiling.
• The Rebellion
• Man of lawlessness is revealed
• Second coming of our Lord
• Our being gathering to Him
...o Dead in Christ
...o Those who are alive and are left
Pretty interesting there sinnersaint... I don't think that believing that will lead to condemnation, so you should be okay.
But irrespective, what's the rebellion? Has it started? When did it start? If not, when will it start?
More importantly, you left out of the sequence 'Who' or 'What' gets removed v7 before the 'Wicked' one gets revealed v8.
< Message edited by cwb -- 7/5/2008 2:44:01 PM >
_____________________________
We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/5/2008 5:13:14 PM
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Sinner-Saint
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
Pretty interesting there sinnersaint... I don't think that believing that will lead to condemnation, so you should be okay.
Thank God our Salvation does not hinge on our eschatology. Still, there is no clear-cut indication for a pre- one 'seven' Rapture; in fact, the evidence in the Bible points entirely the other way.
So who displays faith? It is the one who endures patiently.
quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
But irrespective, what's the rebellion? Has it started? When did it start? If not, when will it start?
Well, I've done some study on this subject:
The Peasants Are Revolting
Besides being a punch line to an old joke, this aspect of prophecy also describes a process which will come to fruition before the end-times come suddenly. The aspect of love growing cold and sinfulness increasing has been said to have been at its apex many times over now. Martin Luther thought in his day that nothing could be worse than the corruption he witnessed being aided and abetted by his own Church selling indulgences. Sin has taken many forms over the man’s time. The homosexual movement today pales to the sexual sins practiced before in Sodom. Likewise the fact that prostitution has been made legal in various states and countries pales to the Temple prostitutes employed in the land of Israel long ago. However difficult it is to say when the threshold is breached, nevertheless it remains a fact of prophecy that rising rebellion is tied to the end-times.
Daniel 8:23 sets up a condition that rebellion precedes a greater evil. In the NIV it reads, “when rebels have become completely wicked, a stern-faced king, a master of intrigue, will arise.” This passage describes Antiochus who serves as archetype for the end-times anti-Christ. He is used as a lens of dual focus in Daniel 11:31 to transition to the anti-Christ as well. A minor point arises with the use of the latter part of their reign. In the context of the passage, this points to the last part of the Greek rule, but in total with verse 8:26, this also describes the broader rule of man in the nations. Here is where Gabriel is pointing to Antiochus and using him as an example of what will come in the distant future in dual focus.
The Hebrew in Daniel 8:23 actually only has “when revolt be complete.” The word rebels or revolt comes from pasha’, a verb which means: rebel, transgress, revolt. Other translations are no better. The King James Version reads: “when the transgressors are come to the full.” The New American Bible has: “when sinners have reached their measure.” The NASB has “when the transgressors have run their course.” These translations do not match the meaning of the author’s words. The difficulty of translating two verbs, rebel and be complete together in succession demands one is made a noun for reading in English. Translating pasha’ as a noun is done to aid the text because the Hebrew has two verbs together. The other aspect for the modern translations is in keeping with precedent. Translators are slow to alter the text that has been translated in one way for years with out good cause. And in the case of this section of Hebrew, a literal translation is not persuasive when it doesn’t make congruent sense.
However, Gabriel is describing an act, not a state of being and not necessarily a people. The noun form of rebel in the Hebrew is pesha’, which describes a state of rebellion, revolt or transgression. Going to the word study reads:
The fundamental idea of (pasha’) is a breach of relationships, civil or religious, between two parties…The acts of transgression, i.e. going beyond the limits of God’s laws, have impact on inner attitudes which create deceitfulness (Isa 59:13) or a distorted love for this ‘independence’ from God (Amos 4:4). It may dull one’s knowledge of what is right (Hos 8:1; Ps 51:13) and may be a rigid refusal to accept correction (Jer 2:8, 29; Hos 7:13; Zeph 3:11; Amos 4:4).—TWOT p.741
This adds a layer of meaning to pasha’ as more than just rebels, and describes when the reign of man is completely divorced from God, being independent and a break with that relationship. If Daniel had meant to say rebels in the sense of a noun, he could have.
The second half of the verb dual concerns the words become completely. The translators have added the verbs have become and taken taman which means to be complete, in its auxiliary form as an adverb.
“taman may assume an auxiliary function, e.g. in Josh 3:16 the literal rendering, ‘They were complete, they were cut off,’ represents ‘They were completely cut off.’”—TWOT p. 973.
But, here there is no compound sentence to saying ‘they were wicked’ to justify the use of taman as completely. It should be noted that wicked has been added as well to the text to put it in context with the act of rebel. Using taman as completely may be the result to separate it from the use of taman in the Bible. Theologically, taman has strong meaning in being ethically sound, wholly God’s, and perfect; none of which could be applied in this usage here with pasha’. However there is a usage of taman that could be reflected here:
From a concept of being ‘used up,’ as of money (Gen 47:15), taman takes on the meaning of ‘come to a close, cease,’ as of a year (v. 18; cf. Ps 102:27 [H 28]). The verb denotes the finishing of various actions, such as building (1 Kgs 6:22) or writing (Deut 31:24, 30). Finally, it refers to a people’s destruction (Num 14:33).—TWOT p.974
In the sense that man’s break from God in the latter days is complete, it signifies also that that preparation is finished for the next phase, and also points to the destruction that awaits as judgment for the rebelling and when that rebelling is complete, then the Antichrist will come forward. This does not change the meaning in modern versions but as a fine point, should refine what the reader is to look for in “rebel.” The aspect of wickedness found in Daniel 8:23 that will be a condition of the world before the rise of the Antichrist is confirmed by other end time prophecy:
MT 24:12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
2TI 3:1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God-- 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.
2PE 3:3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.
JUDE 1:17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires."
2TH 2:3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
One of the key aspects which lay in sequential fashion as presented to the Thessalonians by Paul was a general state of apostasy. Paul lists this as the first precursor in several events that presage the Coming of the Lord, or Christ’s parousias. While a detailed discussion of this section occurs in chapter eight, the state of apostasy can be understood when taken in context with Daniel chapter eight. This apostasy may be more than a general situation of cultural decay, it may also refer to the state of God’s people, the Church, just as pasha’ was a rebellion by the religious leaders of second century B.C. Israel.
Added to this idea of rebellion as being religious in nature is the state of the Church as presented in the sequential timeline of the Churches with the last, Laodicea being the apostate Church. The aspect of being the predominant characteristic of the Church going into the end-times is quite in line with the previous timeline of the Churches presented in Chapter four. This allows always for apostate Churches to exist, it just says that during the final portion of the Church age, that this becomes the defining characteristic. With the current state of the Church in regards to upholding the God’s moral laws, radical egalitarianism would see the Church itself turn away from God’s standard for righteousness as the primary pursuit for the Christian.
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/5/2008 5:26:04 PM
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Sinner-Saint
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The Man of Lawlessness
As stated earlier, with The First Half Week, this rebellion can pertain to the actions of the people led by the anti-Christ. It certainly has the same aspects of Daniel 8:12 which in the case of the end-times, this has the daily sacrifice not only handed over but also put to an end. In Jesus’ Olivet Discourse, He stated:
MT 24:12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
The second condition pertains to the man of lawlessness being revealed. This can happen any number of ways, from his emergence as a power broker from within the ten ministers of the ruling council over the last terrible nation, to the one brokering the peace which initiates the seventieth ‘seven,’ to being wounded and healed and finally placing the abomination in the Temple. Because the book of Revelations reveals the ten Kings are aligned with the anti-Christ in his endeavor, a general rebellion, or state of apostasy may be understood as existing which allows for the emergence of the anti-Christ. Paul sets the order here as rebellion first and then the anti-Christ is revealed.
Paul concludes his sequence of: rebellion - anti-Christ revealed - Christ’s coming - gathering; as having an end where the anti-Christ is destroyed. This is same ultimate consequence is indicated in Daniel 9:27 and 11:45. Jesus speaks the same way assuring His audience of the end in Matthew 24:14. And like Jesus’ continuation in the Olivet Discourse with the very next verse, Paul expounds on the nature of the anti-Christ’s actions.
2TH 2:4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
The opposition and exaltation are different aspects of the same apostesia evident as a form of Rebellion. The oppression of God’s people is one form of opposition. The manner of opposition coincides to the three and a half years of oppression Christians suffer. Seemingly, the forces of evil are gaining. The other is the elevation of the man against God. This is akin to Emperors and Kings who have proclaimed their selves to be God, or setting up idols of worship even of themselves as Nebuchadnezzar did, however, Paul includes one salient fact here which fits with the Abomination just spoken of: this talking self-idol worship as delineated in Revelation chapter 13 is set up in the Temple. This would be the last possible instance where the man of lawlessness is revealed. If God’s people weren’t on guard before, in like fashion to the faithful Jews of the second century B.C., now they will start to resist this beast of a man as the Man in Linen laid out in the lens of dual focus of Daniel 11:31-35. Expanding on the second event in the sequence listed above, Paul lists four key events in respect to the anti-Christ here to the Thessalonians that will precede Jesus’ parousias:
• The rebellion occurs ...........................• Opposition and exaltation
• The man of lawlessness revealed ........• Setting himself up as God
____________________________________________________
• Jesus comes
• Our being gathering to Him
...o Dead in Christ
...o Those who are alive and are left
At first look, rather than have the order between the two preceding sets of conditions appear in parallel, as just stated, the aspect of Rebellion can encompass both the finer points Paul gives in verse 2:4. So one possibility is rather than stating rebellion as a general condition of the people, the second set of conditions could be substituted for Rebellion in the general sequence of events. However, countering that argument is an example of rebellion followed by the emergence of an anti-Christ figure in Antiochus IV Epiphanes. In that period of time, Daniel foresaw a general condition that led to a greater offence.
DA 8:12 “Because of rebellion, the host of the saints and the daily sacrifice were given over to it.”
As a consequence for rebellion, or pesha, which means transgression, a further event which is an abomination (siqqus) is allowed to happen. Here, in history, was a general ‘falling away’ from the standard of Old Testament custom in how the Jews of the second century conducted their personal affairs. Their devotion to God was displaced and Greek customs become the object of their desire. Gabriel reiterates the general condition of rebels (pasha, a word closely related to pesha) giving rise to the example provided in Daniel 11:31 for the end-time anti-Christ.
DA 8:23 “In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a stern-faced king, a master of intrigue, will arise.”
The rebels, then, are separate from the anti-Christ figure and the rebellion is not the opposition and exaltation he performs. This example aligns with Paul’s linear progression of events preceding Christ’s parousias. Thus, as a Biblical example for the end-times, multiple account prophecy supports a general state of apostasy as a valid interpretation for the first prerequisite condition of apostesia. And in this comparison, the state of rebellion represented by the Jews of Jerusalem turning away from their God ought to provide the example for a similar general situation developing in the future.
Instead of substituting apostesia or rebellion with the two elements of actions by the anti-Christ, the general state of apostesia as with the Church of Laodicea and society in general leads to an environment where the anti-Christ’s opposition and exaltation can take hold. This reading for a general state of rebellion would then interject the second pair of conditions Paul lists, the opposition - exaltation and the setting of the image in the Temple between the rebellion and the revealing of the anti-Christ as follows:
• The rebellion occurs
• Opposition and exaltation
• Setting himself up as God
• The man of lawlessness revealed.
• Jesus comes
• Our being gathering to Him
...o Dead in Christ
...o Those who are alive and are left
In the overall context of a sequence of events, there is one more facet added to the order - and again in reverse order: an entity holding back the man of lawlessness. Some conjecture concerns this verse and for a full refutation, see Appendix C. Simply put though, although the Pre-Tribulation school of eschatology puts the Church as being taken out here; however, as is shown, this is a prerequisite step for Christ coming back and gathering the Elect.
2TH 2:5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed…
When this one is taken out of the way, or more appropriately taken out of the middle of the way, then the man of lawlessness is revealed. Some may see the anti-Christ ahead of time, but not enough proof will exist to say this man is the actual anti-Christ. While his campaign goes on, others are aligned with him just as the angel tells John in Revelation 17 that the ten Kings make war against the Lamb so that some doubt remains as to which one the anti-Christ will be. However, at the installation of the image, all doubt will be removed and the anti-Christ will be fully revealed. This final act of rebellion, the installation of the Abomination by the Desolator in the Temple will be timed by the removal of the “one.” Thus God makes the anti-Christ conform to His plan for Jerusalem and Daniel’s “people” in fulfillment of the seventy ‘sevens.’ The final sequence of events in Paul’s letters to the Thessalonians would then have an additional element provided in the mix:
• The rebellion occurs
• Opposition and exaltation
• The “one” removed from the midst
• Setting himself up as God
• The man of lawlessness revealed.
• Jesus comes
• Our being gathering to Him
...o Dead in Christ
...o Those who are alive and are left
The final sequence of events allows for a period of time for the rebellious nature of opposition against Christians and exaltation of the anti-Christ. After a restraining force from God is removed from the midst, then the final act of setting up the talking statue in the Temple removes any remaining doubt as to who the anti-Christ’s is and his intentions which would align Paul’s sequence as given to be much like the lens of dual focus in Daniel 11:31-35. The image fully reveals the anti-Christ and God’s people then resist him and the Great Tribulation that follows. This is followed by Christ’s coming and the gathering.
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/5/2008 5:30:51 PM
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Sinner-Saint
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Conclusion:
The order here is not complete. Paul omits much information, just as he mentions nothing of the Great Tribulation. However, what can be discerned as missing, like the Great Tribulation, can be found in other prophetic accounts. Furthermore, by specific and unique markers, this account can be consolidated with other multiple prophetic accounts. The important aspects are first that the order remains intact and in sync with other end-time prophecy and the second would be the additional information Paul provides:
The elements that are preserved in the general sequence of events are:
1. Rebellion being both opposition to Christians and the exaltation of the ungodly
2. Revealing the anti-Christ as a seminal event
3. Christ’s coming
4. And the subsequent gathering of the Elect
While the additional bits of information Paul provides are:
1. “One” is holding back this man of lawlessness showing God’s control
2. The Abomination occurs in the Temple.
3. The order of the gathering, with the Dead in Christ rising first
Nothing in Paul’s eschatology conflicts with the general pattern which is emerging from Daniel and the Olivet Discourse. Rather the events he does list are in the same order. Having said that, reaching another conclusion; while Thessalonians is an important aspect of end-time Scripture, it is in no means a complete description of it. In it though, Paul does give a sequence of events which must precede Christ’s coming and the rapture of the Elect. This emerging picture does fit with other commentaries that maintain by his actions and plans that Paul did not expect an “anytime” rapture.
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/5/2008 11:09:33 PM
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cwb
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I'm hopin' for short answer - FROM THE WORD...
quote:
ME More importantly, you left out of the sequence 'Who' or 'What' gets removed v7 before the 'Wicked' one gets revealed v8.
Last chance to show me something here that it might be, other than the raptured Church.
Who, or What, gets removed before the Wicked one is revealed - II Thes, Ch 2 vv 7, 8???
_____________________________
We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/5/2008 11:35:24 PM
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Sinner-Saint
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
Last chance to show me something here that it might be, other than the raptured Church.
• The rebellion occurs
• Opposition and exaltation
• The “one” removed from the midst
• Setting himself up as God
• The man of lawlessness revealed.
• Jesus comes
• Our being gathering to Him
...o Dead in Christ
...o Those who are alive and are left
That's it baby. Read 'em an' weep as I used to say... I have no illusion that I can ever show you anything you're not willing to see.
quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
Who, or What, gets removed before the Wicked one is revealed - II Thes, Ch 2 vv 7, 8???
Paul didn't tell us what he meant. He told the Thessalonians, but we don't have the whole of what Paul told them! For you to think that this is the Church is completely unsupported by the language Paul uses for the 'one in the midst' AND it goes against the very sequence of events Paul describes in plain language!
We don't go up until later! We cannot be removed as the "one" and then have Christ come later on and remove us!
It never ceases to amaze me to what lengths of stretching the language Pre-Trib students will to to in order to "see" their secret pre-one 'seven' Rapture.
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/5/2008 11:47:34 PM
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cwb
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During the tribulation, does God send strong delusion to those who heard the Word before the Rapture, and denied it? II Thes 2 v11
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We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/5/2008 11:55:26 PM
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cwb
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Do you ever listen to the programs of Crosswalk forums parent network oneplace.com?
Most all of them teach pre-tribulation Rapture. The doctrine of a few others I've not heard. I've NEVER heard a teacher of note teach mid- or post- trib rapture. I've heard it REFERRED TO, but never taught.
Of course, if every believer says something in particular about doctrine, it doesn't matter - this ain't democracy. Pre-trib DOES seem to be concensus tho'...
Give ear to the oneplace.com ministerial programs for a while.
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We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/6/2008 9:00:07 AM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 428
Joined: 10/5/2006
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Yes there are whole seminaries that teach Pre-Trib. That doesn't make it right. Those types of seminaries, like the Dallas one are Dispensationalists too.
In fact, a whole bunch of people take a totally different take on Pre-Trib and Dispensationalism. One fellow on another board named Byron equates anyone with Crosswalk's frame of mind as being heretical!
Now that's a little extreme, but the point is, we each are imbued by God with direct access to Him. We do not need an intercessor. The Church, that is, all of us, has a direct prayer line to Jesus our High Priest in Heaven and He has given us the Holy Spirit.
Some teach Dispensationalism and Pre-Trib. I teach to endure patiently and Pre-Wrath. It is not a matter of someone teaching right or wrong, but a case where each of us is trying to figure out something very complex and coming to different conclusions.
I will continue to argue my case directly from the Bible and I think I can show through the main accounts of Daniel, the Olivet Discourse, Thessalonians, and Revelation that the Bible consistently presents a sequence of events which roughly places the Rapture at some nebulous time after the midpoint but well before the end of the one 'seven.'
YOU get to decide for yourself. Like I said, thank God our eschatology does NOT determine our Salvation! All we have to do is to stay faithful to our individual ends.
I will say that for some, their eschatology may endanger their Salvation IF they lose faith that the end-times don't play out like they thought it would. I call this the danger of dashed expectations. What will YOU do if you find yourself IN the one 'seven?' What will YOU do if you find yourself being persecuted in the Great Tribulation which starts at the midpoint abomination(s)?
Will you run around trying to find Jesus in all the wrong places? Jesus said some would!
So I ask you to keep an open mind and test everything. Don't take something on someone's word or because most people think it. Decide for yourself, that's why God gave you a brain.
P.S. as far as 2Th 2:11 - that is directed at the wicked, not the Church. Don't you know that the Great Commission will be fulfilled not by man, but by God through an Angel? Many will believe at the last moment before Jesus comes and be saved, but the wicked will not.
You can read about the three Angels which precede Jesus' paraousia in the parallel account within the book of Revelation of the one 'seven' in chapters 13-16 inclusive. Chapter 13 describes the first half of the one 'seven', the midpoint abomination(s) and the reasons the Great Tribulation will affect the Church. The three Angels precede the Harvest in chapter 14 which happens after the midpoint abomination(s). After that, Wrath follows until the end of the one 'seven.'
Like I said, the Bible is consistent in presenting a sequence-of-events which places the Rapture after the midpoint of the one 'seven.'
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/6/2008 9:23:02 AM
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cwb
Posts: 153
Joined: 1/15/2007
From: Eastern NC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
Who, or What, gets removed before the Wicked one is revealed - II Thes, Ch 2 vv 7, 8???
Paul didn't tell us what he meant.
Why do you say he didn't tell us? V6 says "...6 And now ye know what withholdeth..."
It was for Thessalonian Christians to know, but for no other Christians to know???
That doesn't make much sense ss.
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We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/6/2008 9:59:42 AM
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cwb
Posts: 153
Joined: 1/15/2007
From: Eastern NC
Status: offline
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quote:
Chapter 13 describes the first half of the one 'seven', the midpoint abomination(s) and the reasons the Great Tribulation will affect the Church.
In Rev, the Church is not mentioned after Ch 4 Rev (till all is fulfilled). In Rev, John is told to write what is (Ch 2, 3), what was (Ch 1), and what is to come (Ch 4 - 22).
The first thing that is described Rev ch4 v 1, is the trumpet (also I Cor 15:52 'last trump, trumpet'; I Thes 4:16 trump of God) [Rapture].
The Great Tribulation, distinct from 'tribulation', is referred to in Ch 7 Rev.
What does the word 'Great' mean to you?
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We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/6/2008 10:07:47 AM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 428
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
Why do you say he didn't tell us? V6 says "...6 And now ye know what withholdeth..."
It was for Thessalonian Christians to know, but for no other Christians to know???
That doesn't make much sense ss.
Well c, the whole thing about Paul's letters is that one, we don't have all of them, and two, they were directed at other people in response to previous letters, conversations, and/or situations with which Paul either had communication about or attended directly.
So we are literally only getting one-half of a conversation.
2TH 2:5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?
Guess what! Paul told them things! And since he didn't repeat what he had told them in this particular letter, we aren't privy to them! We have lost vital information over time - get used to it. Paul knew what he was talking about with the "one" but we don't.
If you want to say we are taken out of the midst before the anti-Christ comes so as to support your belief in a Pre-Trib (a mistaken term for the one 'seven' by the way) Rapture and ignore plain language in the same letter which says after the anti-Christ rises Jeus comes and then we are removed - so be it.
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RE: The Antichrist is here and is now currently (06/24/... - 7/6/2008 10:19:22 AM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 428
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
In Rev, the Church is not mentioned after Ch 4 Rev (till all is fulfilled). In Rev, John is told to write what is (Ch 2, 3), what was (Ch 1), and what is to come (Ch 4 - 22).
Going on a one word interpretation, you will miss that the whole Church is IN the Great Multitude, but you won't see it because you are looking so myopically on a single word.
The Churches in chapters 2 and 3 also describe a timeline. Each Church is a then-present-day Church and each has a place in Heaven which comes after the one 'seven.' I would go farther along the way other scholars have and say the the seven Churches represent the Church as it goes through its various phases during the Church Age as well.
quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
The first thing that is described Rev ch4 v 1, is the trumpet (also I Cor 15:52 'last trump, trumpet'; I Thes 4:16 trump of God) [Rapture].
Your first statement is incorrect.
The "trumpet" of chapter 4 is figurative. John is describing the voice he heard. Jesus' voice is LIKE a trumpet... (You're focusing too closely on every single word here and missing the forest for the trees.)
Furthermore, you have a non sequitur. It does not follow that the single word "trumpet" in Ch 4 is the Last Trumpet.
In addition to that - IF John was intimating that this is the Church being called up - THEN why did he use the SINGLE form of "you?"
In Revelation chapter 7, we find with the sixth Seal that it begins the Day of the Lord with its signature Sun/moon/star event. AFTER that - a Great Multitude shows up in Heaven.
The sequence of events is the same as the Olivet Discourse. After the Sun/moon/star event Jesus comes on the clouds to gather the Elect. Inline with the wheat and tares parable Jesus told us, the wheat is taken to the barn BEFORE the tares are burned in the field.
Having the Great Multitude show up in Heaven OUT OF the Great Tribulation fuflills the wheat being taken to the barn.
P.S. What does megas mean to you?
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