RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked for it here it is!
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 4:48:49 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1299
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: offline
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quote:
Pro 31:9 Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.
ok...
then, have any idea what this list represents???
May 29, 2008 Port Gamble S'Klallam Tribe
$175,000 over 3 years to support a capital campaign for a tribal youth center
May 29, 2008 Boys & Girls Clubs of Whatcom County
$275,000 over 2 years to support a capital campaign for the Ferndale Club
May 27, 2008 South Whidbey Good Cheer, Inc.
$100,000 over 2 years to support a capital campaign for a food bank
May 27, 2008 Northwest Youth Services
$155,000 over 3 years to support a therapeutic care program for low-income youth with autism and other developmental disorders
May 23, 2008 United Way of King County
$1,000,000 over 5 years to support services linked to housing for chronically homeless single adults in King County
May 12, 2008 Community Shelter Board
$25,000 over 1 year for general operating support
May 9, 2008 National Center For Educational Achievement
$250,000 over 2 years to support the Data Quality Campaign which seeks to address the "next-generation" issue of linking education data with other longitudinal child-centered information systems such as child welfare, health, and early childhood education
Apr 4, 2008 Housing Consortium of Everett and Snohomish County
$10,000 over 1 year to support production of an Affordable Housing Action Plan for Snohomish County
Mar 24, 2008 Our Place Community Ministries
$40,000 over 2 years to support a capital campaign
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 5:00:58 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1299
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
This is my favorite.
McDonald's Heiress Gives $1.5-Billion to Salvation Army.
Ooooh, those dirty rotten stinking rich people 
oooh....that's a GOOD one...
my list, by the way, lists a FRACTION of the grants gifted to organizations by the Bill & Melinda Gates foundation....over just a few months....and those are just SOME of them from that time period.
In just 2007 alone, they GAVE AWAY a bit over $2 BILLION dollars.....to organizations such as those listed, as well as many around the world....the list is staggering....
Started in 1994, the foundation has GIVEN AWAY well over $16 BILLION dollars. (Once it got started, they probably got off to a "slow start", with creating the organization needed to create such an entity....)
What do many of the richest people do with their money & fortune? GIVE IT AWAY....
Bill & Melinda are just the tip of the iceberg.
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 6:38:43 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
Wow. How can you pass judgement and say that "some of these Christians on here" don't "get it" and aren't giving at least as much as your children? I think I am seeing a good bit of pride here.
They don't get it as far as it being a HEART matter.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 6:55:15 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3515
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: offline
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quote:
He simply says bring the tithes into the storehouse, I believe He was talking to the sons of Levi, the priests that were taking the tithes?
This scripture was talking to the people of that time who were not supporting the church. God says to tithe, and to TEST Him, with their tithe and see, if they support the church, that He will bless them mightily, in the financial terms of the day, agraian success.
He said, you help my house and I will bless your's. To bless them not just spiritually but financial and materially as well. There are plenty of examples in the bible of people who were blessed financially by God.
What the new testament was against wasn't welath. It was believing that all wealthy people got their wealth because they were better and more righteous than others. There was a wealth worship going pon and anything that took your attention from God, God does not like.
quote:
So you consider people like Oprah blessed?
Financially blessed no doubt. Certainly NOT spiritually blessed. How God distributes wealth isn;t something we can understand. He blesses the evil man too. That...does not take from the biblical fact that God does bless the obediant....Deuteronomy 28:1-14.
Just because you have money does not mean you are righteous.
quote:
But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
When you make doctrine from a few or one scripture then you have faulty doctrine. Obviously God has blessed many "holy heros" in the bible. So is this a contradiction? No.
When you look into the entire bible it is clear. If money is an idol, you will get its rewards which are just carnal. You can have money and follow God as well. Lotsa examples of that in the bible....and not all of them are OT either. Look at the Joseph who provided the tomb for Jesus.
quote:
It also says He will pour out blessings! NOT MONEY!
Not so...read it again...
quote:
And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field
Agrarian success was the tender of the day. To be rich was to have a good crop, food to eat and even to sell...or to easily give ten percent, of your best crop, to the church and have plenty left over. This is a material success.
quote:
Arent we as Christians suppose to pleasd for the poor?
I don't know what you are saying here. Ahh, I see, pleading for the poor. Ok, how does being rich stop someone from pleading the poor's plight?
quote:
We can stop at verse one.
Did you read the rest? It talks about various successes, many of which were material.
quote:
You have hoarded wealth in the last days.
This is too easy really. These people believed in their wealth and not God. This says nothing about the possession of money. It says alot about who God is in our lives.
Not even close.
quote:
Notice it refers to underpayment of wages- a common occurance these days that some try to justify as just routine business.
Should a bag boy be paid 40,000 dollars a year? To believe so is covetness. The bible is very clear as well...you must give value to your employer as well.
quote:
Underpayment of wages is a big reason for the disparity of wealth these days.
Nope. The villification and scapegoating of the rich prevents wealth more than any other factor. Excessive taxations. The target of every liberal looking to get elected. The socialists target.
If paying a bag boy 40,000 dollars a year makes him wealthy then the standard is too low and growth is stymied.
quote:
Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.
...and no rich person EVER gives to the poor...right? Not one? Nada? IF your position is right, then it would show itself. It does not.
The rich can give away all of their money and there will still be poor amungst us.
What about the parable of talents? Not only was the man who invested well rewarded, the money given to the man who did not invest well was taken from him and given to the one who did.
There is a great lesson there for liberals and socialists.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 7:00:01 PM
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upNORTder
Posts: 228
Joined: 7/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
This is my favorite.
McDonald's Heiress Gives $1.5-Billion to Salvation Army.
Ooooh, those dirty rotten stinking rich people
oooh....that's a GOOD one...
my list, by the way, lists a FRACTION of the grants gifted to organizations by the Bill & Melinda Gates foundation....over just a few months....and those are just SOME of them from that time period.
In just 2007 alone, they GAVE AWAY a bit over $2 BILLION dollars.....to organizations such as those listed, as well as many around the world....the list is staggering....
Started in 1994, the foundation has GIVEN AWAY well over $16 BILLION dollars. (Once it got started, they probably got off to a "slow start", with creating the organization needed to create such an entity....)
What do many of the richest people do with their money & fortune? GIVE IT AWAY....
Bill & Melinda are just the tip of the iceberg.
It's nice that these people try to give something back to the society that allowed them to accumulate those riches. If these people believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior, then they will be saved. If they do not, nothing that they have done will save them from eternal damnation.
Whether someone is rich or poor has no bearing on someones salvation unless they allow their poverty or wealth to separate themselves from God. Many times though, people who have wealth believe that everything is all right between themselves and God, just because of this wealth.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 7:02:57 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3515
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: offline
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quote:
Many times though, people who have wealth believe that everything is all right between themselves and God, just because of this wealth.
Then they never knew God in the first place.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 7:34:07 PM
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upNORTder
Posts: 228
Joined: 7/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
quote:
He simply says bring the tithes into the storehouse, I believe He was talking to the sons of Levi, the priests that were taking the tithes?
This scripture was talking to the people of that time who were not supporting the church. God says to tithe, and to TEST Him, with their tithe and see, if they support the church, that He will bless them mightily, in the financial terms of the day, agraian success.
He said, you help my house and I will bless your's. To bless them not just spiritually but financial and materially as well. There are plenty of examples in the bible of people who were blessed financially by God.
What the new testament was against wasn't welath. It was believing that all wealthy people got their wealth because they were better and more righteous than others. There was a wealth worship going pon and anything that took your attention from God, God does not like.
Tithing was an old testament command and not applicable.
quote:
quote:
So you consider people like Oprah blessed?
Financially blessed no doubt. Certainly NOT spiritually blessed. How God distributes wealth isn;t something we can understand. He blesses the evil man too. That...does not take from the biblical fact that God does bless the obediant....Deuteronomy 28:1-14.
Just because you have money does not mean you are righteous.
I agree.
quote:
quote:
But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
When you make doctrine from a few or one scripture then you have faulty doctrine. Obviously God has blessed many "holy heros" in the bible. So is this a contradiction? No.
When you look into the entire bible it is clear. If money is an idol, you will get its rewards which are just carnal. You can have money and follow God as well. Lotsa examples of that in the bible....and not all of them are OT either. Look at the Joseph who provided the tomb for Jesus.
Compared to the number who were not rich, I'd say that God did not bless that many in the old or new testament with wealth.
quote:
quote:
It also says He will pour out blessings! NOT MONEY!
Not so...read it again...
quote:
And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field
Agrarian success was the tender of the day. To be rich was to have a good crop, food to eat and even to sell...or to easily give ten percent, of your best crop, to the church and have plenty left over. This is a material success.
This passage does not say that they will have overabundance, just not disaster.
quote:
quote:
Arent we as Christians suppose to pleasd for the poor?
I don't know what you are saying here. Ahh, I see, pleading for the poor. Ok, how does being rich stop someone from pleading the poor's plight?
The wealthy are in a position to do more than plead.
quote:
quote:
You have hoarded wealth in the last days.
This is too easy really. These people believed in their wealth and not God. This says nothing about the possession of money. It says alot about who God is in our lives.
Not even close.
The strange thing is this passage is addressed to today. Hoarding wealth isn't possesing money???!!!
quote:
quote:
Notice it refers to underpayment of wages- a common occurance these days that some try to justify as just routine business.
Should a bag boy be paid 40,000 dollars a year? To believe so is covetness. The bible is very clear as well...you must give value to your employer as well.
Who said $40k a year? How about a living wage? Anything less is an insult to God.
quote:
quote:
Underpayment of wages is a big reason for the disparity of wealth these days.
Nope. The villification and scapegoating of the rich prevents wealth more than any other factor. Excessive taxations. The target of every liberal looking to get elected. The socialists target.
If paying a bag boy 40,000 dollars a year makes him wealthy then the standard is too low and growth is stymied.
If the tax rate for the rich gets any lower they'll just get a rebate check from the government every month.
$40k??
quote:
quote:
Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.
...and no rich person EVER gives to the poor...right? Not one? Nada? IF your position is right, then it would show itself. It does not.
The rich can give away all of their money and there will still be poor amungst us.
Riiiiiiiight. quote:
What about the parable of talents? Not only was the man who invested well rewarded, the money given to the man who did not invest well was taken from him and given to the one who did.
There is a great lesson there for liberals and socialists.
The man's job was to invest. If your investment broker put your money in a vault instead of investing it, you'd be angry too. Notice how the employer rewarded the worker!!
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 8:17:10 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
Pro 31:9 Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.
quote:
ok...
then, have any idea what this list represents???
Ok can I ask how this list represents Christians opening their mouths and pleading the cause of the poor?
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 8:25:01 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1357
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
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I'd say it's called "putting your money where your mouth is". Pretty definitely.
But, I get it. They're rich. Nothing they could possibly do could ever be good enough for you, other than becoming destitute.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 8:43:50 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 750
Joined: 1/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
Wow. How can you pass judgement and say that "some of these Christians on here" don't "get it" and aren't giving at least as much as your children? I think I am seeing a good bit of pride here.
They don't get it as far as it being a HEART matter.
No, tracydolls, I'm afraid it's you that doesn't seem to "get it". It being a matter of the heart is what almost everyone else posting in this thread has been saying to you in as many ways as it could have possibly been said. You previously have been fighting against that stance and arguing that it is against God's word to be rich, regardless of how their money is spent or where the heart is.
And as far as where one's heart is in a matter, I suppose that is between them and the Lord and maybe you ought not to pass judgement on those who are so generously giving to the needy.
Matthew 7
Judging Others
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 10:22:56 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
I'd say it's called "putting your money where your mouth is". Pretty definitely.
But, I get it. They're rich. Nothing they could possibly do could ever be good enough for you, other than becoming destitute.
Where is "putting your money where your mouth" in the Bible?
Oprah does that. the verse is
Pro 31:9 Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.
So if you throw some money at the problem but do not plead their cause, and JUDGE righteously? that is ok?
Might I ask you about the woman with 2 mites?
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 10:35:06 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
No, tracydolls, I'm afraid it's you that doesn't seem to "get it". It being a matter of the heart is what almost everyone else posting in this thread has been saying to you in as many ways as it could have possibly been said. You previously have been fighting against that stance and arguing that it is against God's word to be rich, regardless of how their money is spent or where the heart is.
And as far as where one's heart is in a matter, I suppose that is between them and the Lord and maybe you ought not to pass judgement on those who are so generously giving to the needy.
You can HONESTLY look at some of these responses and think they LOVE their fellow brother?
OK.
Maybe we should go back and find out what is LOVE?
Or maybe you should go back and read some threads.
Before I joined I read for a while. Still follow the same people I followed from then.
Are there Christians here, yes.
Can I judge who is and isnt, not a very good judge, but the Bible says to test the spirit. Love is easy to see.
There's a blogger on here, sometimes I'm like he is in my house! But you know what, to him I never say a word.
The threads I like, I never comment on, I just read what they say, go to the links, get out my Bibles look up the Scriptures they post. And learn.
Threads like these, I plead for the poor.
Do I do it gently like I'm commanded to. No! Still working on that. 
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 10:54:45 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 750
Joined: 1/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
No, tracydolls, I'm afraid it's you that doesn't seem to "get it". It being a matter of the heart is what almost everyone else posting in this thread has been saying to you in as many ways as it could have possibly been said. You previously have been fighting against that stance and arguing that it is against God's word to be rich, regardless of how their money is spent or where the heart is.
And as far as where one's heart is in a matter, I suppose that is between them and the Lord and maybe you ought not to pass judgement on those who are so generously giving to the needy.
You can HONESTLY look at some of these responses and think they LOVE their fellow brother?
OK.
Maybe we should go back and find out what is LOVE?
Or maybe you should go back and read some threads.
Before I joined I read for a while. Still follow the same people I followed from then.
Are there Christians here, yes.
Can I judge who is and isnt, not a very good judge, but the Bible says to test the spirit. Love is easy to see.
There's a blogger on here, sometimes I'm like he is in my house! But you know what, to him I never say a word.
The threads I like, I never comment on, I just read what they say, go to the links, get out my Bibles look up the Scriptures they post. And learn.
Threads like these, I plead for the poor.
Do I do it gently like I'm commanded to. No! Still working on that.
tracydolls, I want to help the poor as well! Believe me when I tell you that! And I am pretty sure everyone else does too. Just because we may want to go about it in a different way does not mean we are leaving the poor to fend for themselves. I give to charities that feed the hungry in Africa and other parts of the world with starving children. I give to these specific charities more than any other because I do not have much to give more often than not and in my eyes a hungry starving child is the least able to help themselves and therefore the most in need of someone else's help. I also know that I could give more if I really wanted to, and it upsets me sometimes when I say I have given all I can because I know that is not the complete honest truth. I could give the money I spend on internet for example. I could give the money I spend on iced coffees from McDonald's that I get every so often. I could give the money that I spend on a lot more things, things that I don't even realize I spend so much on most of the time.
Anyway, the point is is that the reason I would never want to tell someone else they are not giving all they can is because it would make me a hypocrite, whether the other person is filthy rich or not, I would be a hypocrite because the same finger could be pointed right back at me and I know it.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/25/2008 11:14:22 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1357
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
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quote:
Where is "putting your money where your mouth" in the Bible?
Oprah does that. the verse is
Pro 31:9 Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.
So if you throw some money at the problem but do not plead their cause, and JUDGE righteously? that is ok?
Might I ask you about the woman with 2 mites?
James 1:16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well
fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?
17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action,
is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your
faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
Those rich people are showing their pleading for the poor through DEEDS. They are putting their money where their mouth is, and helping out. Why do you despise them so?
Romans 2:17 Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag
about your relationship to God;
18 if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are
instructed by the law;
19 if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for
those who are in the dark,
20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in
the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth--
21 you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach
against stealing, do you steal?
You claim to be pleading for the poor, but in doing so you've advocated stealing repeatedly, whether by the government, or by the poor themselves. This is wrong, no matter how superior you think your motive.
1 John 2:9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in
the darkness.
1 John 4:20 If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar.
For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love
God, whom he has not seen.
You can't proclaim your hatred for the rich, you can't tell us that you pray for God to smite the rich, and be in the light. I'm sorry, but that's just not possible. You really need an attitude adjustment there. Plead for the poor, but do it in love. Plead for the poor, but do it without malice for those better off. Plead for the poor, but do it without venom and vitriol.
The woman with the two mites was giving to God, not to the poor. She did not then turn to the Pharisees and tell them that they were horrible people, either.
You seem to like this verse a lot:
Pro 31:9 Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.
Where in that verse does it say that pleading the cause of the poor and needy means you must rail in hatred about how much you despise the rich? That's not pleading for the poor. Not at all.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/26/2008 12:36:17 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
You claim to be pleading for the poor, but in doing so you've advocated stealing repeatedly, whether by the government, or by the poor themselves. This is wrong, no matter how superior you think your motive.
Ok. Let's back up.
Please show me where I have ADVOCATED or even used that word steal to help the poor? Please.
If the gov't makes a tax to help the poor, is that stealing? Where have I ever said the poor should steal themselves?
Where?
My first post in this thread was. #4 This is the entire post reposted.
''Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Jas 5:1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
Jas 1:10 But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.
1Ti 6:17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
Luk 1:53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.
Mar 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Luk 6:24 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
the Bible is VERY clear about the rich, I think people get it confused! ""
You feel I"m railing in hatred. Or advocating stealing.
OK. 
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/26/2008 12:58:08 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
tracydolls, I want to help the poor as well! Believe me when I tell you that! And I am pretty sure everyone else does too.
Sophia,
Can I show you 1 John?
I'm not a good judge of people at all. Never have been . Never will be.
But in these verses,
1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1Jn 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
1Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
1Jn 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jn 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jn 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
1Jn 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
1Jn 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
1Jn 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1Jn 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
1Jn 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
1Jn 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
1Jn 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jn 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
Some of this mess is pure hatred. I'm not gonna lie and say it's LOVE.
I'm not pointing fingers, Jesus saved me too. I'm hoping He saves some people on here. They seem cool.
To me, and I know I'm wrong most of the time, but CHEERLEADING the rich is hatred of the poor.
It's not simply blase about them, it's hating them.
Love is easy to see.
I read some posts or different people I follow on here and have to sit back , cry, get up and walk around, you can just FEEL the Love thru cyberspace.
I always think I wanna be them when I grow up.
Then I struggle with the haters.
< Message edited by tracydolls -- 6/26/2008 1:44:25 AM >
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/26/2008 7:23:28 AM
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martyfran
Posts: 561
Joined: 7/17/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
You claim to be pleading for the poor, but in doing so you've advocated stealing repeatedly, whether by the government, or by the poor themselves. This is wrong, no matter how superior you think your motive.
Just how does the government steal?
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/26/2008 9:17:54 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 750
Joined: 1/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Some of this mess is pure hatred. I'm not gonna lie and say it's LOVE.
I'm not pointing fingers, Jesus saved me too. I'm hoping He saves some people on here. They seem cool.
To me, and I know I'm wrong most of the time, but CHEERLEADING the rich is hatred of the poor.
It's not simply blase about them, it's hating them.
Well what exactly qualifies as "cheerleading" the rich in your mind? I have seen this multiple times in your posts but I still do not understand what one must say to become a "cheerleader" for the rich. Is it folks who don't want the government to forcibly take their money? Is is people who can be grateful for those like Bill Gates who give so much money to charity? Or is someone a "cheerleader" unless they proclaim the rich to be evil? And who are the rich? Are the rich only those on the Forbes 400? Are they all multi-millionaires? Or are the rich all of those people who in your opinion have more money than what they need? You need to define what you mean by that term, otherwise I hardly know how to answer you.
To say that someone hates the poor just because they do not agree with your brand of helping the poor is wrong. Do you have a hatred in your heart for the rich?
By someone giving to the poor it does not mean they hate the rich, and by someone not wanting the government to force the rich to give what they have does not mean they hate the poor.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/26/2008 9:20:34 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 750
Joined: 1/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
You claim to be pleading for the poor, but in doing so you've advocated stealing repeatedly, whether by the government, or by the poor themselves. This is wrong, no matter how superior you think your motive.
Just how does the government steal?
Maybe you should ask that question to all of the baby boomers who have spent a lifetime paying into a social security trust that no longer holds their money.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/26/2008 10:53:26 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1357
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
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Well, okay tracydolls, here we go. From your posts, including the hijacking of the socialized healthcare thread that started this discussion:
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Tax the mess out of the rich and make them help pay for socialized medicine. #222 in Socialized
Let's take the money away from the rich and make them pay.
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I don't care if they beat them up and take it, I'm tired of watching the poor get no help. #253 in Socialized
Suggesting that it's okay for the poor to literally mug the rich to take the money.
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Sometimes my prayer be like Lord, come get these babies and these fat greedy, arrogant............... in america. #253 in Socialized
Praying for God to basically smite the rich.
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Who's part of the rich on here? Who am I berating? #269 in Socialized
Stating that you're berating the rich.
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I think we should start with children and do like the Clintons did, tax the rich to pay for the programs. #320 in Socialized
Again, we're taking from only the rich.
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If the way to Heaven is hard like a camel going thru a needles's eye, OK. I'm in agreement with that. Make it just that hard.
#66 in this thread
Apparently being happy about the fact that it's hard for the rich to get to heaven. Tad hateful imho.
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So if you throw some money at the problem but do not plead their cause, and JUDGE righteously? that is ok? #87, this thread
Even after it is pointed out that the rich are helping (quite a lot in fact), apparently you still hate them so much that it doesn't count, even though you've spent so many threads saying that it is the duty of the rich to throw money at the problem (or be forced to throw money at the problem).
How does the government steal. By taking money unfairly, I would say. By the whole "redistribution of wealth" thing a la the communist governments (which failed miserably in other countries, yet for some reason they're still trying it). By condemning peoples' property and forcing them to sell it (often at a loss) when they don't want to sell. By abuse of eminent domain laws. By telling us they're going to use the money for one thing when they tax us, then changing their mind once we've voted for it based on that and using it for something else. By squandering our social security. But, that's kind of a whole 'nother topic.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/26/2008 11:40:36 AM
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martyfran
Posts: 561
Joined: 7/17/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
You claim to be pleading for the poor, but in doing so you've advocated stealing repeatedly, whether by the government, or by the poor themselves. This is wrong, no matter how superior you think your motive.
Just how does the government steal?
Maybe you should ask that question to all of the baby boomers who have spent a lifetime paying into a social security trust that no longer holds their money.
A couple of points that you need to be educated on. First of all, Social Security was set up as a welfare program, not a retirement program. It is a welfare program because it set up on a pay as you go basis. Which means that you take money from those who work and give it to those who don't work. So it is basically a welfare program.
Now there is a trust fund, that was set up in the 1980's. However the older baby boomers did not spend their entire lives contributing to the system, only part of their lives. Right now there is around$2 trillion in the trust fund, so you can't really say it doesn't hold their money either.
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RE: Discussion on the merits of the wealthy-You asked f... - 6/26/2008 12:46:55 PM
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