Exactly what is sin? (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Exactly what is sin?


willful violation of a known law of God
  22% (31)
falling short of God's perfect mark
  23% (33)
violation of God's laws, whether known or not
  21% (30)
The sin nature is always with us
  14% (20)
the sin nature can be eradicated
  7% (10)
I don't sin, but sometimes I do make "Mistakes"
  0% (1)
Other
  10% (15)


Total Votes : 140
(last vote on : 11/9/2008 1:42:35 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )


Message

bluestone -> Exactly what is sin? (6/20/2008 11:24:42 AM)

You may choose more than one item on the poll.
What exactly is sin? Seems we have a lot of definitions, depending on theological background.

Can we keep from sinning? Is it inevitable for the believer to sin?
Has anyone ever stopped sinning completely? (I know some who calim it)

Should we "sin boldly", as some say, relying on Gods grace? Or does that just cheapen and use up grace?

Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God Forbid!

Discuss sin, what it is, and anything related to it.



Liveloved -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/20/2008 11:51:13 AM)

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23

You're asking a question that obviously divides people on this forum. Nor do I believe our discussion will change anyone's mind. Only the Spirit can do that kind of surgery! When we have made a judgment, whether we are talking about a person or a theological position, it is as if we have a filter through which we see and hear and understand and we cannot get beyond it. That is why judgment is so often dangerous. The human nature judges unrighteously. And that we do. God asks us to judge righteously. And in order to do that, we have to love the light and be willing to come to the light, to have our sin exposed and to have truth revealed to us. For many that is too frightening. How can we lead and teach and tell others about Jesus when we are so unlike Him?

But the gospel message is that I have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and the ONLY way of salvation is through Jesus. I cannot save myself. I cannot be good or good enough. But He loves me and reaches down to sinners---those who come to the light to have their sin exposed and dealt with. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Confession and repentance is the life of a believer. We are sinners who have been saved by a loving and gracious God.

Sin is enmity with God. That's what we fail to see.



jbow -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/20/2008 12:10:49 PM)

quote:

violation of God's laws, whether known or not


I voted that but then I thought about what Paul said that sin is violation of the law and where there is no law given there is no transgression.

Sin is disobedience to God's commands, as shown in the garden. There was only one thing forbidden and the doing of that one thing that was forbidden was the sin that infected us all.

I don't know, maybe I should have voted for the first three.

J



jbow -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/20/2008 12:13:00 PM)

quote:

Has anyone ever stopped sinning completely? (I know some who calim it)


Are you certain of that? I have seen on this board people who claim that others believe this when it is not what the others are saying. I have seen people claim that they can live for a limited time without sinning but I have never seen anyone claim to have completely overcome sin in this life. I have seen people twist the words of others though.

J



bluestone -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/20/2008 1:04:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jbow

quote:

Has anyone ever stopped sinning completely? (I know some who calim it)


Are you certain of that? I have seen on this board people who claim that others believe this when it is not what the others are saying. I have seen people claim that they can live for a limited time without sinning but I have never seen anyone claim to have completely overcome sin in this life. I have seen people twist the words of others though.

J


I attended church for years where it was taught, and with people who testified to it. Very common in Holiness churches. I do think the sinless perfection is dying out, but still taught in some areas.



bluestone -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/20/2008 1:07:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23

You're asking a question that obviously divides people on this forum. Nor do I believe our discussion will change anyone's mind.



The question is not what divides. The divisions are already there. I see the different views, and want to discuss them. Truth can come out when opposing opinions are discussed. I don't want to change anyone's mind. Just see the scriptures used and explanations given.



URForgiven -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/20/2008 2:24:15 PM)

Willfully falling short of God's perfect mark.

All sin is willful. This delusional belief in accidental sin, while convenient, is right out of the pit. If you are not willfully choosing it, then it is not sin.

Peace



LCannon -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/20/2008 2:59:53 PM)

'Sin' is not appropriating(claiming for oneself)Jesus' sacrifice/obedience/Victory for our personal arrogance in unbelief. "Talk is cheap ; show me your faith without obedience and I will show you my faith by my obedience." James 2:17,18



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/20/2008 11:42:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone
I attended church for years where it was taught, and with people who testified to it. Very common in Holiness churches. I do think the sinless perfection is dying out, but still taught in some areas.

Did I write that? Oh! You did! Exactly the same as my background.

I was fooled by this doctrine for the first 38 years of my life and wondered why I was so faulty when all the others in the church were so perfect. I just thought I was evil, so I did bad things sometimes.

I almost didn't write this here, but I have written it on CW before -- that some of the most wicked "christians" I ever knew were people who, with shining faces and animated gestures, would give glowing testimonies in church about how holy they were.

And while I, too, understand that all sin is willful, I do not agree that we always recognize it when we sin. I have sinned and not recognized those acts as sin until I had matured enough to see them.

Sin is a very touch subject for me, because I do not fully understand it. It really irritates me to think that I may be sinning and not even know.



Ezra -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/21/2008 2:14:56 AM)

quote:

Sin is a very touch subject for me, because I do not fully understand it.


What's to understand? Sin is everything (thoughts, words, deeds) that is not in conformity to the absolute holiness and righteousness of God.

There are both wilful and non-wilful sins. And saints can and will sin, although sin should not have dominion over them.

quote:

It really irritates me to think that I may be sinning and not even know.


The only way to deal with this is to let the Lord show us our sins daily through His Word and by His Spirit. "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 Jn. 1:8-10).



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/21/2008 2:59:46 AM)

Anything not done in faith...

John



MrFribbles -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/21/2008 3:07:00 AM)

I voted that the sin nature can be eradicated; but, I do not believe that we as Christians will be perfectly sinless until our glorification upon the end of this earthly life (or, ya' know, the rapture - whichever comes first!).
I think the concept of "sin nature" is generally misunderstood, perhaps mostly thanks to the NIV, which is most instances I think is a fine translation, but they translate "sarx" (flesh) as "sin nature," which I feel is misleading.
To me, the "sin nature" is what is controlling us before we are saved. It makes it so that our very nature is to sin, and we have no choice to do anything that is not sinful. Even what looks like good works on the outside are sinful, because they are done for the wrong reasons. Sin becomes our very nature. Those occasional "good" works are a slip-up of that nature.
In the same way, upon conversion, we receive a new nature, which from that moment on reigns in our bodies. The old nature has been put to death. We are free from that sin nature. It is no longer in our nature to sin, rather, it is our nature to do God's work. The sins we commit, then, are against our nature, and are possible because of the flesh (which, again, the NIV translates, improperly I believe, as sin nature).

All that to say - sin, for the believer, is going against their very nature to willfully break, or not fulfill, a command of God. As URForgiven rightly (I believe) pointed out, there is no accidental sin. Any break in our nature is a choice we make by giving into our flesh.



drmark -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/21/2008 8:59:14 AM)

Exactly what is sin? No one has ever described it better than Susanna Wesley in a letter to her son John:

“Take this rule: whatever weakens your reason, impairs the tenderness of your conscience, obscures your sense of God, or takes off your relish of spiritual things; in short, whatever increases the strength and authority of your body over your mind, that thing is sin to you, however innocent it may be in itself.”

quote:

In the same way, upon conversion, we receive a new nature, which from that moment on reigns in our bodies. The old nature has been put to death. We are free from that sin nature.
Does this not imply, MrF, that even the newest Believer will never sin again, since the sin nature has been eradicated? Why do so many Christians claim to sin every day in thought, word, and deed?

quote:

The sins we commit, then, are against our nature, and are possible because of the flesh (which, again, the NIV translates, improperly I believe, as sin nature).
So clarify this concept of yours that the flesh (sarx) makes possible our continued willful disobedience to God. Is there no hope for us to stop sinning since we all remain physically human until we die (or are raptured)?



bluestone -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/21/2008 10:49:50 AM)

Perhaps we have taken it to two extremes. I don't think we sin every day in words, thoughts, and deeds. A high fever and case of the flu would render me unable to stand, much less consider sinful thoughts, words, or deeds!

I have yet to meet anyone who I think has been living a sinless life. Even those who profess it. If it were possible, someone beside Christ would have done it by now. Perhaps the DESIRE to sin is removed. So when we sin, we are grieved by it.

I think our definitions of sin reflect our idea of holiness.

I don't think Calvin or Arminius had it all right. Wesley or Knox, either. I am leaning toward the idea that both had parts of it correct.

I think I am becoming a Calvi-minan[:D]



drmark -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/21/2008 11:02:26 AM)

quote:

I have yet to meet anyone who I think has been living a sinless life.
What you think is irrelevant to whether someone "has been living a sinless life", bluestone. If the Holy Spirit has cleansed me from all sin and purified me from all unrighteousness, if I am not sinning at this moment, and if I do not intend to sin in the next moment, then I have been living a sinless life.

quote:

I think our definitions of sin reflect our idea of holiness.
Actually, I think our definitions of holiness reflect our ideas of sin. Most every Christian believes in holiness, but only some believe it is possible in this lifetime. Hence, many will live far beneath their privelege as described in 1 John 3:6 and 9.

quote:

I don't think Calvin or Arminius had it all right. Wesley or Knox, either.
So did John have it right in the verses I referenced above? Is John describing a sinless life? Why not?



MrFribbles -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/21/2008 11:27:48 AM)

quote:

Does this not imply, MrF, that even the newest Believer will never sin again, since the sin nature has been eradicated? Why do so many Christians claim to sin every day in thought, word, and deed?


Not at all. It's not that we are no longer able to sin - rather, we, as believers with a new nature, are able to not sin. That is something unbelievers cannot do.
I would say they claim that because, heh, they do.

quote:

So clarify this concept of yours that the flesh (sarx) makes possible our continued willful disobedience to God. Is there no hope for us to stop sinning since we all remain physically human until we die (or are raptured)?


The flesh is that part of us that is not yet redeemed (but will be, on the resurrection). Now, the desires of the flesh are not inherently sinful (for example, the desire for food), but they can be taken and twisted by greed, pride, etc., to become something sinful (for example, the desire of food being changed into gluttony). However, that is not in the nature of the Christian. When we are lead into temptation and sin, it is because something has drawn us away from being who we are by our new natures.
As for hope, I might say it's possible, but I doubt if it's at all likely. And that's OK. God doesn't expect us to stop sinning in this life. He wants us to strive towards sinlessness, but He knows that we won't achieve it. If we could achieve it, He wouldn't have needed to send His Son.



drmark -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/21/2008 11:46:41 AM)

quote:

Not at all. It's not that we are no longer able to sin - rather, we, as believers with a new nature, are able to not sin. That is something unbelievers cannot do.
I would say they claim that because, heh, they do.
This I agree with wholeheartedly! Sinlessness means we are able to not sin. Sinless does NOT mean we are never able to sin again.

quote:

The flesh is that part of us that is not yet redeemed (but will be, on the resurrection).
This I disagree with wholeheartedly. You are describing an unbiblical concept of dualism which, if taken to its logical conclusion, results in the heresy of gnosticism. This is precisely why John wrote his first epistle to carefully show that we must not sin in body or spirit since we are not divided beings. I urge you to be cautious where you go with this doctrine, MrF.

quote:

As for hope, I might say it's possible, but I doubt if it's at all likely. And that's OK. God doesn't expect us to stop sinning in this life.
No, that's NOT okay, according to 1 John 3:4-10. The Bible is very clear that God expects us to stop sinning in this life and He provides the means to stop sinning in this life. Anything less degrades the precious Blood of Jesus!



bluestone -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/21/2008 12:43:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

What you think is irrelevant to whether someone "has been living a sinless life", bluestone. If the Holy Spirit has cleansed me from all sin and purified me from all unrighteousness, if I am not sinning at this moment, and if I do not intend to sin in the next moment, then I have been living a sinless life.


WRONG! That is the whole crux of the doctrinal error of instantaneous sanctification! If you are free from sin, YOU DON'T SIN AGAIN and no one does that. I have watched countless people testify publically to not siniing in thirty years or so, while seeing sin in there lives (Pride being one of them). Intending to not sin no more makes you free from sin than intending to be married makes you married.

quote:

Actually, I think our definitions of holiness reflect our ideas of sin. Most every Christian believes in holiness, but only some believe it is possible in this lifetime. Hence, many will live far beneath their privelege as described in 1 John 3:6 and 9.


What about the entire book of Romans? Paul's view is rather different..

quote:

So did John have it right in the verses I referenced above? Is John describing a sinless life? Why not?


I answer that with 1 John 3:8-10. The light of Christ is in us upon salvation. That does not mean a Christian ceases to sin. Those who say they are without sin are liars. John was not describing a sinless life.



drmark -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/21/2008 1:14:56 PM)

quote:

That is the whole crux of the doctrinal error of instantaneous sanctification!
If that was a correct understanding of "instantaneous sanctification", it would indeed be doctrinal error. But correct doctrine shows that we are made holy and progress in holiness, thus sanctification is both a crisis event and an ongoing process.

quote:

(Pride being one of them).
And how do you judge pride, bluestone? I have posted innumerable times that I am sinless ONLY by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit. Please explain how that is sinful pride.

quote:

Intending to not sin no more makes you free from sin than intending to be married makes you married.
Did you miss the first two aspects of sinlessness (marrige in your analogy)? First, one must be cleansed of all sin (married in a crisis event). Then one must not be sinning (legally married at this moment). Only then can one intend to stop sinning (intend to remain married). This is the basis of being sinless (married).

quote:

What about the entire book of Romans? Paul's view is rather different..
I see nothing in Romans that is different from my view. Indeed, 3:22, 5:21, 6:2, 6:11-14, 6:22, 8:9-14, and 12:1-2 all show the ability of Believers to not sin right here and now. You'll need to find some other book besides Romans to support a sinning religion, bluestone.

quote:

I answer that with 1 John 3:8-10. The light of Christ is in us upon salvation. That does not mean a Christian ceases to sin. Those who say they are without sin are liars. John was not describing a sinless life.
I assume you mean 1 John 1:8-10. But please don't leave out verses 7 and 9 and 2:1. Taken in context, this passage clearly indicates that we are cleansed of all sin and unrighteousness so that we no longer have to sin. If it does not mean a Christian ceases to sin, then please explain 1 John 3:4-10 and I John 5:18. These are very simple verses, bluestone - anyone born of God does not keep on continually sinning!



MrFribbles -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/21/2008 6:53:57 PM)

quote:

You are describing an unbiblical concept of dualism which, if taken to its logical conclusion, results in the heresy of gnosticism.


Perhaps you misunderstood (most likely because I misspoke) when I said "redeemed". The simple fact of the matter is, we do not have perfect bodies here on this earth. They are tainted with sin. The same is true of our nature before we enter into God's salvation. The taint of sin is not removed from our bodies upon receiving salvation - if it were, then we would live forever in these bodies!
I am most certainly not suggesting that it is our physical bodies that are sinful, or that the physical is in any way "lesser" to the spiritual/metaphysical. Like I said, the flesh is not inherently wrong - it is the choices we make to pervert its neutral desires that are sinful. What I was trying to say was that, upon the resurrection of the dead when we all are raised with new, imperishable bodies, then that ability for our fleshly desires to be used for evil will vanish entirely.

quote:

No, that's NOT okay, according to 1 John 3:4-10. The Bible is very clear that God expects us to stop sinning in this life and He provides the means to stop sinning in this life.


I don't believe John is addressing individual sins in that passage (or indeed, in most of 1 John). Rather, he is addressing a false argument presented by the false teachers who were leading some of John's readership astray (or at least, attempting to). There seems to have been two false doctrines about sin being taught by these teachers. 1, that it was possible to be without sin in the Christian life (1 John 1:8), and that it didn't matter if the Christian's life was characterized by sin or righteousness; that either was acceptable. John fiercely attacks both of these false teachings.
But I would agree that the Christian life should (and possibly, can) not be characterized by habitual, unrepentant, and un-convicted (though that is difficult to tell from the outside) sin.



LBolt -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/21/2008 7:22:49 PM)

The OP asked what exactly is sin. According the Bible, in 1 John 3:4, sin is transgression of the law. Anomia, which is violation of the Torah. When we break the commandments of YAH, we are transgressing the Law. Start with the 10 Commandments and do an inventory of you life. Read the Torah (law) and do an inventory of your life, if it does not line up, repent and do that which is right.



HisFish -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/22/2008 10:12:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

Not at all. It's not that we are no longer able to sin - rather, we, as believers with a new nature, are able to not sin. That is something unbelievers cannot do.
I would say they claim that because, heh, they do.
This I agree with wholeheartedly! Sinlessness means we are able to not sin. Sinless does NOT mean we are never able to sin again.


well said.



Jet_A_Jockey -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/22/2008 12:14:02 PM)

Sin is a product from within. There is nothing that is sinful in itself, its how we deal with it that may make it sinful or not. As Christians, we have conviction by the Holy Spirit as to when we fall short, but many times we can also be deceived/deceive ourselves by blindly following the various doctrine/philosophy, and dare I say, dogma, of men.

How does that apply to unbelievers? I can't say for sure, other than that if they forsake God then their sin is already begun from the get-go.

People often argue that 'well some people find (insert hotly debated topic here) is not sinful', if they truly are drawn to study and dwell on a particular subject as such, they will find the truth. After that, its just a matter of whether they accept the outcome, or deny it and continue to fool themselves and others. (This applies to both sides of any argument)

Take care.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/22/2008 1:47:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:

Sin is a very touch subject for me, because I do not fully understand it.

What's to understand? Sin is everything (thoughts, words, deeds) that is not in conformity to the absolute holiness and righteousness of God.

There are both wilful and non-wilful sins. And saints can and will sin, although sin should not have dominion over them.
quote:

It really irritates me to think that I may be sinning and not even know.

The only way to deal with this is to let the Lord show us our sins daily through His Word and by His Spirit. "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 Jn. 1:8-10).

It is difficult, Ezra, because I was brought up to believe that some people could live without ever sinning, as in while they were personally capable of sinning, they just didn't do it. There were people who would actually say that they had been saved for 10, 20, 30, etc. years, and since being saved they had never sinned.

This church had a very loose definition of sin, however, so they would sin and not understand that they had, then go on not seeking forgiveness for those sins. The way that church was structured, it was far harder to admit sin than it was to ignore it.

Once I learned what sin was --
quote:

Sin is everything (thoughts, words, deeds) that is not in conformity to the absolute holiness and righteousness of God
-- I am very nervous about sin. Why? Because I believe that I am doing things that I don't even recognize as sin. I worry because I go for weeks without recognizing sin, without directly thinking I have sinned. That bothers me. It should.

I don't want to sin. I hate sin. While some people claim they derive some personal happiness or something from sin, I don't. I just don't like it -- any of it.

I seriously believe that if anyone could live without sin, I could . . . but I don't and I can't believe I am able. After all, I hate sin, avoid sin; I am older so I'm not drawn to sinful things; I have a job where one would think that I would never have to sin; there's just the two of us in the house, and we get along well, so what would either of us have to sin about; and I could go on.



Doghouse -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/22/2008 2:40:37 PM)

Sin is an action, or the lack thereof, that results in injustice.



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