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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 7/18/2008 4:07:01 PM
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colliefan
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thank you
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 7/20/2008 8:21:28 PM
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9drtr
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OTOH, the first time I heard the phrase "Accepted Jesus Christ as my personal lord and saviour" from the pulpit was from an Anglo-Catholic in St. Thomas's Toronto. That's "Smokey Tom's, where you can't see the altar through the incense."
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When we know who is coming, how can we worry about what is coming? When the last hour belongs to us, how can we worry about the next minute?
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 7/20/2008 9:30:45 PM
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Marcus.
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hehehe I grew up in the RCC. I remember that stuff stank too.
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 7/23/2008 10:03:31 PM
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Marcus.
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Bishop Gene Robinson 'must be sacked' to save church from schism
By Martin Beckford, Religious Affairs Correspondent
Last Updated: 12:31AM BST 23 Jul 2008
Rt Rev Gene Robinson's election by liberal Americans has caused deep divisions and exposed the 80 million-strong Communion to "ridicule", according to the head of the church in Sudan. The Most Rev Daniel Deng Bul claimed his statement was backed by 200 other bishops from 17 other "Global South" provinces in Africa, Asia and South America. Coming on the second day of the once-a-decade gathering of Anglican clergy in Canterbury, the Lambeth Conference, the ultimatum undermines efforts by the Archbishop of Canterbury to keep the church united through discussion and development of a new set of rules.
Story Continues
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 7/23/2008 10:11:13 PM
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colliefan
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The issue is deeper than one gay bishop. "Sacking" him won't help and will only deepen the divide over sexuality and scripture.
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 7/23/2008 10:25:15 PM
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prophet
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What of those who conduct same sex marriages?
Those who deny authority of scriptures?
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 7/27/2008 9:32:04 PM
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9drtr
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One hundred bishops and two thousand priests would have to be defrocked to try to save the Anglican church.
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When we know who is coming, how can we worry about what is coming? When the last hour belongs to us, how can we worry about the next minute?
Ross Crighton
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 7/27/2008 10:01:06 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 9drtr
One hundred bishops and two thousand priests would have to be defrocked to try to save the Anglican church.
This is why the Anglican church, as it is presently structured is almost beyond hope. A restructed church with its base in Africa is needed.
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/1/2008 5:06:22 PM
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9drtr
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
ORIGINAL: 9drtr
One hundred bishops and two thousand priests would have to be defrocked to try to save the Anglican church.
This is why the Anglican church, as it is presently structured is almost beyond hope. A restructed church with its base in Africa is needed.
Oh, I agree.
And let's all take a moment to thank God for the missionaries the Anglican communion sent around the world in centuries past. It is their fruit that we are seeing in Africa and Indonesia, their fruit that can revive the Anglican Church, their fruit that bears the seed of Thomas Cranmer.
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Edwin
When we know who is coming, how can we worry about what is coming? When the last hour belongs to us, how can we worry about the next minute?
Ross Crighton
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/1/2008 7:58:19 PM
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colliefan
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It is interesting that one of the lead anchors of an area TV station is a deacon in on the area's Episcopal church's and has a blog on the station's web site. In that blog he writes about the "mean-spirited inviduals" who are taking over the Anglican Church and speak's glowingly of Eugene Robinson. He was also a major supporter of John Edwards and wrote a blog about how he tagged along with him on the campaign trail.
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/2/2008 4:29:53 AM
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Marcus.
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Church of England warned of legal action if it tries to 'steal' churches from Rome parishes
A leading bishop has warned the Church of England it could become embroiled in costly legal action if it tries to "steal" churches from traditionalists ready to defect over the the introduction of women bishops.
By Martin Beckford, Religious Affairs Correspondent
Last Updated: 3:34PM BST 01 Aug 2008
The Rt Rev John Broadhurst, Bishop of Fulham, claims most of the church's assets once belonged to the Roman Catholic Church. He says it would be "legalised theft" if the Church of England tried to keep buildings used by Anglo-Catholics who may defect to Rome after its governing body voted to bring in women bishops without special concessions for traditionalists.
Story continues
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/2/2008 4:02:57 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
He says it would be "legalised theft" if the Church of England tried to keep buildings used by Anglo-Catholics who may defect to Rome after its governing body voted to bring in women bishops without special concessions for traditionalists.
Interesting. I didn't know about the fracture on this side of the church.
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/2/2008 6:07:58 PM
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Marcus.
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There is more to this than just the homosexual angle. There are those who reject female clergy since they don't meet the requirements set in Scripture. There is also the PoV on Scriptural authority and these heretical interpretations Canadian and U.S. national leadership is holding to which ignore Apostolic teachings.
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/4/2008 10:18:56 PM
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facedown
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interesting discussion.
just as interesting, the lambeth conference hasn't been much in discussion at our parish. but even i've been a little busy to keep up with the ENS to follow what's been happening.
but if there's one thing i think is certain, it's that "conservative" and "liberal" labels do very little but promote schizm. kind of like the news media continuing to use a persons color "black man" - "white women" - etc, even while others continue to say this isn't appropriate - it keeps things out front, that maybe ought not to be there.
that's not to say, that there aren't some issues, in some places that should be dealt with. but this is found throughout the tribe, not just the "liberal" folks.
one of the confrences from the 19th century, found the BCP, has some very interesting and profound language about who we are, and who we are not - and that this finds it's being in the message and love of christ, and nothing - not even our liturgy ought to stand in the way of our living and sharing this love....
my gut says, that some sort of "exit strategy" is and has been in the works for some time, and will unfortunately happen - a mass exodus of sorts, led by some folks in the southern hemishphere. i hope i'm wrong, but.....
i am wondering though, what exactly is the purpose of this thread? i see countless critiques of the AC, but not any real discussion - in the end, is that all is this thread was meant to be - a place to come hang out, and throw some complaints around?
pax
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/4/2008 10:57:51 PM
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Marcus.
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It was meant to share some information on the discord and get the PoV of folks inside the AC. I've been wondering why folks put up with what is to me obvious apostacy instead of unseating the leadership or leaving altogether. I was hoping to gain some insight.
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/4/2008 11:21:52 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
my gut says, that some sort of "exit strategy" is and has been in the works for some time, and will unfortunately happen - a mass exodus of sorts, led by some folks in the southern hemishphere. i hope i'm wrong, but.....
why do you support those who deny the supremacy of scriptue, believes that "Christianity musy change or die", supports the ordination of day clergy, believes that Islam and Christianity serve the same God.....
Why is the spilt unfortunate and what good do you see in the ECUSA?
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/4/2008 11:28:04 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
- and that this finds it's being in the message and love of christ, and nothing - not even our liturgy ought to stand in the way of our living and sharing this love....
"love" is to tell someone wrapped in sin - no matter which ones - that sin is an affornt against a holy god. To ignore sin makes us form God in our image.
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/5/2008 7:23:31 AM
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facedown
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marcus
one of the most beautiful things about the communion over the past ten years or so, is the very fact that a mass exodus hasn't happened. the easy thing to do, is to pack up and leave - to walk away - to abandon one another. to go find another sand box to play in.
of course we've seen some of this, to some degree - churches pulling out, people leaving, etc.
but i think that if we say we believe in redemption, and reconcilliation - we ought to live it.
colliefan
i'm not sure your observations can be made so broadly. bishop wright has a wonderful article on the authority of scripture, btw. what we believe is found in our confessions of faith - both the nicene, and apostles creed. a split is always unfortunate - and it opposes what we claim to be about. it's non-relational, rather, the one is demanding that the other must submit, rather than all finding a way to live for each other. it's essentially the one, carrying the role of an angry god - saying 'make these sacrifices, and my anger will be appeased for now' - this never works, and it's contrary to the message of jesus.
i think you've gone further in your definition of 'love' - which it seems to you, is more than to say "hey straighten your stuff out" - it's "hey, get your stuff together, and oh btw - get out of my life, because your on the highway to hell, and i don't want to get singed by standing to close!"
rather, love isn't self-seeking, it actually empties itself of everything in pursuit of the other. love also isn't provoked, nor does it take account a wrong suffered - it doesn't keep track of them. she isn't ever demanding, and doesn't ever stop being patient, never stops believing, never stops hoping - never gives up. and it never comes to an.......
does that mean, that in our communion, there shouldn't be arguments, shouldn't be folks on either side of an issue stating their convictions? no, rather it actually demands it - that we rend our selves open - but - leaving shouldn't be an option, if we truly believe what we say.
pax
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/5/2008 11:40:45 AM
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colliefan
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quote:
and it opposes what we claim to be about
Which is? The following is from a web site on the Thirty-nine Articles.
quote:
On the other hand, they affirm with the continental reformers that
Scripture is the final authority on salvation (VI),
that Adam's fall compromised human free will (X),
that justification is by faith in Christ's merit (XI),
that both bread and wine should be served to all in the Lord's Supper (XXX),
and that ministers may marry (XXXII).
So homosexuality is applaued and scripture dengrated. This is the position of the ECUSA. How do you support teaching that "Christianity must change or die. That Chiristianity and Islam are but two paths to the same god. What you are looking for is the Church of Barney.
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/5/2008 4:25:38 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
think you've gone further in your definition of 'love' - which it seems to you, is more than to say "hey straighten your stuff out" - it's "hey, get your stuff together, and oh btw - get out of my life, because your on the highway to hell, and i don't want to get singed by standing to close!"
And what did Jesus say to those traped in a sinful lifestyle. "It's OK, were are just on differnent paths to the same God? Nope.
John 5:9 - 17 (ESV) 9And at once the man was healed, and he took up his bed and walked. Now that day was the Sabbath. 10So the Jews said to the man who had been healed, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not lawful for you to take up your bed.” 11But he answered them, “The man who healed me, that man said to me, ‘Take up your bed, and walk.’” 12They asked him, “Who is the man who said to you, ‘Take up your bed and walk’?” 13Now the man who had been healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had withdrawn, as there was a crowd in the place. 14Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you.” 15The man went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had healed him. 16And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath. 17But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”
John 8:7 - 11 (ESV) 7And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground. 9But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10Jesus stood up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” 11She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.”]
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/6/2008 6:25:09 AM
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facedown
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colliefan
it would be just fine, if you really desire some sort of authentic dialogue, to reconfigure your strategy (church of barney, etc). it's really unnessesary.
what website are you referring to?
here is a link to a small catechism, or outline of faith - not a complete statement, and is cast in question/answer format.
regarding your second post, the passages you quoted take nothing away from what i've posted.
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/6/2008 4:56:19 PM
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colliefan
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facedown,
Do you support Spong's assertoin that "Christianity Must Change of Die"? Do you support the ECUSA assertion the Christianity and Islam are but two paths to the same God? Do you support the ECUSA ordination of a gay bishop? Do you support the ECUSAs continual devaluation of scirpture? Do you know there are some dirt-poor parishes in Africa that will not accept money from the ECUSA b/c they consider it to be blood money?
In terms of the Thirty Nine Articles, there are countless ones that have that document. The ECUSA continual support of homosexuality combined with its devaluation of scripture is what has led to the schism. It isn't loving to allow one to persist in a lifestyle condemed by Scripture. But the ECUSA wants to change scripture to fit its view of the world,
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/6/2008 7:45:14 PM
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facedown
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colliefan
what website were you referring to?
if you can find something on episcopalchurch.com to reference to, that would be great. i can't really comment on your observations, without something to actually validate it, or provide some "meat" to. certainly you understand that.
if you go to ECUSA's website and do some digging into the last convention, you'll find some good stuff as well.
and i'm not really in a position to speak of anyone whose retired, btw. in addition, i don't see any 'devaluation' of scripture, or any of you other observations.
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/6/2008 8:12:25 PM
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prophet
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Colliefan
If you are going to enegage in a 'conversation' with facedown, be prepared to converse where ther are no absolutes, not even in scriptures. Everythings emerging, each to his own.(interpretation). No ones right, no ones wrong.
The love thats described by Face is a pseudo type of love in contrast to that described in scriptures where love is founded in the Holiness of God. They tend to forget that God is Holy as much as God is love.
Their pseudo love is humanistic love based on compromise which at best, leads to lust. Thats whats happened to AC in the last 10 yaers. Compromise after compromise. Now its bearing its fruit. The scriptures reminds us of love as much as church discipline as well. Unfortunately, the AC was wrapped up with lust instaed of meting discipline. Thats the fruit of today.
They tend to remeber John 3:16 but forget John 3:19 -20
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