Moreover, on "War Crimes" Prosecutions will begin

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freakofnature -> Moreover, on "War Crimes" Prosecutions will begin (6/19/2008 11:13:59 AM)
Let the prosecution of American Officials begin! Abroad... Rummy may want to cancel that trip to Rome next year! Open Thread on torcher reports Prosecutions of "War Crimes to Begin"

CatholicCritter -> RE: Moreover, on "War Crimes" Prosecutions will begin (6/19/2008 11:18:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freakofnature Let the prosecution of American Officials begin! Abroad... Rummy may want to cancel that trip to Rome next year! Open Thread on torcher reports Prosecutions of "War Crimes to Begin" without authority, this is just grandstanding, not to mention a waste of resources. assembling a case does not mean that case will be tried in a court of law, let alone proven. this will go nowhere.

davemiller7 -> RE: Moreover, on "War Crimes" Prosecutions will begin (6/19/2008 3:27:14 PM)
Since the article is from The New Republic, it may be just wishful thinking by the editorial staff. -Dave

rnershigh -> RE: Moreover, on "War Crimes" Prosecutions will begin (6/19/2008 3:49:40 PM)
Oh please. They need to stop their self-righteous and smug attitudes here. These people need to stop wasting their time and effort and go after REAL human rights abusers in this world and take a hard look at places where people are being oppressed right now. THey turn a blind eye to it, yet get on Bush's case for Iraq.whatever. Let's see, top officials in Chinese government, Saudi Arabian government, Iran's government, Hugo Chavez and his goal of becoming a dictator (after all, his idol is Cuba's Castro), the atrocities committed in Sudan...gee, I could keep on listing many others that deserve to be investigated and brought to international light. This is just another case of Bush bashing, he has been quite demonized, vilified, and hated throughout the world and our own country. Is it any surprise that some are calling for prosecution of Bush's "war crimes"?[8\|]

Jeff_from_Kentucky -> RE: Moreover, on "War Crimes" Prosecutions will begin (6/19/2008 6:22:08 PM)
Italy wants to try our officials for war crimes? Who do they think they are? If any US offical is to be tried for anything, it will be decided by our people here in our courts, not in some Mickey Mouse European courtroom by people with delusions of grandeur. Congress should immediately cut all aid and trade to Italy. That will teach them.

jkdjr25 -> RE: Moreover, on "War Crimes" Prosecutions will begin (6/19/2008 6:38:09 PM)
sarcasm mode on Because if we actually DID commit acts of torture (waterboarding), which is against both US and international law, the only people we could possiblly trust to prosecute would be us. Besides it would be totally justified because they'd do worse to us. sarcasm mode off It'll be interesting to see where this goes, if at all. If allegations are true then those responsible should be tried under both U.S. and international law. Just like the Nuremburg trials. We wouldn't want to set a double standard now would we?

fiat_lux -> RE: Moreover, on "War Crimes" Prosecutions will begin (6/19/2008 9:39:11 PM)
quote: Italy wants to try our officials for war crimes? Who do they think they are? If any US offical is to be tried for anything, it will be decided by our people here in our courts, not in some Mickey Mouse European courtroom by people with delusions of grandeur. Well, you're definitely right that this is pointless posturing in Italy, but I'm not sure America is really in a position to proclaim that citizens may only be tried in their own country's courts. More to the point, the Italian trial, if it's the one I'm thinking of, involves a case where a Muslim cleric in that country was apprehended, allegedly without Italian permission, by an American intelligence squad, and then shanghaied out of the country and shipped off to Egypt for interrogation. Now, maybe the cleric in question was guilty as sin, so to speak - I really don't know - but, first off, it's not a war crimes trial (despite what the high-minded and rather exaggerated rhetoric seems to imply, such a thing would almost certainly never happen to an American in Europe, given America's diplomatic influence), and second, I'm pretty sure if an Italian security unit abducted someone off the streets in New York, you'd be a little uneasy about letting the Italian judicial system take care of the case. quote: Congress should immediately cut all aid and trade to Italy. That will teach them. Does America give aid to Italy? quote: The easiest way to take care a this hole problem is first kill all the Moslems since we dont know which ones is goin to turn into terrists and which ones aint, so better safe than sorry. Next kill all the ungreatful furriners who seem to forget all that we has done for the world. Take are money in one hand and then stab us in the back with the othern! NUKE THEM!!! KILL THEM ALL!!! If all thats left in the world is us and Isreal, thats fine with me. Them other folks is just takin up space. I'm pretty sure calling for mass murder is probably a TOS violation of some sort, but regardless, at the very least you might consider dropping this sarcastic nonsense in a thread that's actually about Muslims.

Sophie11 -> RE: Moreover, on "War Crimes" Prosecutions will begin (6/19/2008 9:57:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jkdjr25 sarcasm mode on Because if we actually DID commit acts of torture (waterboarding), which is against both US and international law, the only people we could possiblly trust to prosecute would be us. Besides it would be totally justified because they'd do worse to us. sarcasm mode off It'll be interesting to see where this goes, if at all. If allegations are true then those responsible should be tried under both U.S. and international law. Just like the Nuremburg trials. We wouldn't want to set a double standard now would we? Now you're going to compare waterboarding to the crimes committed during the Holocaust? What, now waterboarding is the same as being shot in the back and pushed into a shallow grave with thousands of others? Underwear on your head is the same as being shoved alive into an burning oven? Sleep deprivation is equivalent to having someone pull out your teeth with a pair of pliers or a spoon? Did we squeeze 150 bodies into boxcars with no light, ventilation, toilet, food or water for weeks until only 30 or so were left alive and almost reduced to cannibalism to survive? Did we set up medical experiments in the likeness of Dr. Mengele and viciously mutilate people in the name of science? Did we take their babies and throw them alive into a pit of fire before the eyes of their wailing mothers, fathers, sisters, or brothers? Some double standard, isn't it.

fiat_lux -> RE: Moreover, on "War Crimes" Prosecutions will begin (6/19/2008 10:04:53 PM)
quote: Some double standard, isn't it. In fairness, the reference was probably intended to point to what's probably the only really functional and effective (to some extent) international criminal court we've ever been able to put together, not to suggest this is equivalent to the Holocaust. And the Nuremberg system dealt more broadly than just the Holocaust trials, though obviously those were the most seriuos ones. If we had such a system (though it would have a lot of drawbacks, I admit) perhaps we could put some of the people from the other side on trial too. I'm sure lots of them have violated some pretty serious laws.

jkdjr25 -> RE: Moreover, on "War Crimes" Prosecutions will begin (6/19/2008 10:12:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fiat_lux quote: Some double standard, isn't it. In fairness, the reference was probably intended to point to what's probably the only really functional and effective (to some extent) international criminal court we've ever been able to put together, not to suggest this is equivalent to the Holocaust. And the Nuremberg system dealt more broadly than just the Holocaust trials, though obviously those were the most seriuos ones. If we had such a system (though it would have a lot of drawbacks, I admit) perhaps we could put some of the people from the other side on trial too. I'm sure lots of them have violated some pretty serious laws. Exactly. The only other warcrimes trial that I'm aware of was the one for that warlord in Kosovo and that one doesn't seem like an apt comparison.

Sophie11 -> RE: Moreover, on "War Crimes" Prosecutions will begin (6/19/2008 10:19:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jkdjr25 quote: ORIGINAL: fiat_lux quote: Some double standard, isn't it. In fairness, the reference was probably intended to point to what's probably the only really functional and effective (to some extent) international criminal court we've ever been able to put together, not to suggest this is equivalent to the Holocaust. And the Nuremberg system dealt more broadly than just the Holocaust trials, though obviously those were the most seriuos ones. If we had such a system (though it would have a lot of drawbacks, I admit) perhaps we could put some of the people from the other side on trial too. I'm sure lots of them have violated some pretty serious laws. Exactly. The only other warcrimes trial that I'm aware of was the one for that warlord in Kosovo and that one doesn't seem like an apt comparison. And you seriously think anything the US has done is comparible to either of these cases? That it is just as bad?

rlj -> RE: Moreover, on "War Crimes" Prosecutions will begin (6/20/2008 8:14:44 AM)
quote: What, now waterboarding is the same as being shot in the back and pushed into a shallow grave with thousands of others? No doubt we should never compare waterboarding to what our Russian allies did to the Polish officers they captured in 1939 at Katyn. quote: Did we set up medical experiments in the likeness of Dr. Mengele and viciously mutilate people in the name of science? Did we take their babies and throw them alive into a pit of fire before the eyes of their wailing mothers, fathers, sisters, or brothers? Did we let them all go free like we did the perpetrators at Pingfan?

Sophie11 -> RE: Moreover, on "War Crimes" Prosecutions will begin (6/20/2008 9:03:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rlj quote: What, now waterboarding is the same as being shot in the back and pushed into a shallow grave with thousands of others? No doubt we should never compare waterboarding to what our Russian allies did to the Polish officers they captured in 1939 at Katyn. quote: Did we set up medical experiments in the likeness of Dr. Mengele and viciously mutilate people in the name of science? Did we take their babies and throw them alive into a pit of fire before the eyes of their wailing mothers, fathers, sisters, or brothers? Did we let them all go free like we did the perpetrators at Pingfan? Well now, haven't you put forth an honest effort to sidestep the question. Why not just answer it directly? Do you think that the "torture" the US has inflicted on the prisoners in the WOT is comparative to the crimes committed by the Nazis?

rnershigh -> RE: Moreover, on "War Crimes" Prosecutions will begin (6/20/2008 9:32:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sophie11 quote: ORIGINAL: rlj quote: What, now waterboarding is the same as being shot in the back and pushed into a shallow grave with thousands of others? No doubt we should never compare waterboarding to what our Russian allies did to the Polish officers they captured in 1939 at Katyn. quote: Did we set up medical experiments in the likeness of Dr. Mengele and viciously mutilate people in the name of science? Did we take their babies and throw them alive into a pit of fire before the eyes of their wailing mothers, fathers, sisters, or brothers? Did we let them all go free like we did the perpetrators at Pingfan? Well now, haven't you put forth an honest effort to sidestep the question. Why not just answer it directly? Do you think that the "torture" the US has inflicted on the prisoners in the WOT is comparative to the crimes committed by the Nazis? Nope. And I find it despicable that people have to bring in atrocities committed by Nazi into the discussion. Quite disgusting really. Like our leaders are comparable to the leaders of Nazi Germany of the past?[:'(] Yup, that is another thing I've heard that is ridiculous. That Bush is another HItler and is evil, so why should we be surprised that some think he committed war crimes? (I haven't heard this here, but I've encountered it elsewhere). Heck, some think he should be impeached! Hey, why stop there...maybe we should just execute him and Cheney and all his advisors. That will be the only thing that appeases the lynch mob.

rlj -> RE: Moreover, on "War Crimes" Prosecutions will begin (6/20/2008 12:07:47 PM)
quote: Well now, haven't you put forth an honest effort to sidestep the question. Why not just answer it directly? Do you think that the "torture" the US has inflicted on the prisoners in the WOT is comparative to the crimes committed by the Nazis? If you show me one place anywhere that I compared our leaders to Nazi leaders I'll answer. Anywhere on this board and I believe you can set the settings to go all the way back to the creation of this board after the merger. Just one time where I said it. Same thing Rmershigh except show me one time and show me one time where I ever said Dubya should be impeached. I have never said that ever. The American population voted him in as King George the American public deserves him. I'd say that even if he got caught with an intern and lied about it.

Sophie11 -> RE: Moreover, on "War Crimes" Prosecutions will begin (6/20/2008 12:12:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rlj quote: Well now, haven't you put forth an honest effort to sidestep the question. Why not just answer it directly? Do you think that the "torture" the US has inflicted on the prisoners in the WOT is comparative to the crimes committed by the Nazis? If you show me one place anywhere that I compared our leaders to Nazi leaders I'll answer. Anywhere on this board and I believe you can set the settings to go all the way back to the creation of this board after the merger. Just one time where I said it. Why would I have to point out where you said anything like that? I was never posing the question to you in the first place. You just decided to answer.

rlj -> RE: Moreover, on "War Crimes" Prosecutions will begin (6/20/2008 1:05:39 PM)
quote: Why would I have to point out where you said anything like that? I was never posing the question to you in the first place. You just decided to answer. First of all this is a public board and I can answer when I want. Second of all why did you quote me, then respond, then give me a response like that? If it wasn't meant for me then be courteous and don't answer. Don't break ToS in a rude response to me.

Sophie11 -> RE: Moreover, on "War Crimes" Prosecutions will begin (6/20/2008 1:18:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rlj quote: Why would I have to point out where you said anything like that? I was never posing the question to you in the first place. You just decided to answer. First of all this is a public board and I can answer when I want. Second of all why did you quote me, then respond, then give me a response like that? If it wasn't meant for me then be courteous and don't answer. Don't break ToS in a rude response to me. I never quoted you until YOU answered ME! If you did not want to answer the question, why did you respond?!!! [sm=crazy.gif] And it's not that I minded you answering, I just don't really understand why you are asking me to show where you said something that I never accused you of saying!

jkdjr25 -> RE: Moreover, on "War Crimes" Prosecutions will begin (6/20/2008 1:26:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sophie11 quote: ORIGINAL: jkdjr25 quote: ORIGINAL: fiat_lux quote: Some double standard, isn't it. In fairness, the reference was probably intended to point to what's probably the only really functional and effective (to some extent) international criminal court we've ever been able to put together, not to suggest this is equivalent to the Holocaust. And the Nuremberg system dealt more broadly than just the Holocaust trials, though obviously those were the most seriuos ones. If we had such a system (though it would have a lot of drawbacks, I admit) perhaps we could put some of the people from the other side on trial too. I'm sure lots of them have violated some pretty serious laws. Exactly. The only other warcrimes trial that I'm aware of was the one for that warlord in Kosovo and that one doesn't seem like an apt comparison. And you seriously think anything the US has done is comparible to either of these cases? That it is just as bad? Do you seriously not get what I was saying? The only way to hold a warcrimes trial, and have it be legitimate, is to do so with international law just like international law was used as a basis to hold the trials at Nuremberg. Note the emphasis on using international law. That's the point, you don't use the legal system of the accused to put them on trial in a war crimes trial. That's all I was saying. Oi.

Sophie11 -> RE: Moreover, on "War Crimes" Prosecutions will begin (6/20/2008 1:37:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jkdjr25 quote: ORIGINAL: Sophie11 quote: ORIGINAL: jkdjr25 quote: ORIGINAL: fiat_lux quote: Some double standard, isn't it. In fairness, the reference was probably intended to point to what's probably the only really functional and effective (to some extent) international criminal court we've ever been able to put together, not to suggest this is equivalent to the Holocaust. And the Nuremberg system dealt more broadly than just the Holocaust trials, though obviously those were the most seriuos ones. If we had such a system (though it would have a lot of drawbacks, I admit) perhaps we could put some of the people from the other side on trial too. I'm sure lots of them have violated some pretty serious laws. Exactly. The only other warcrimes trial that I'm aware of was the one for that warlord in Kosovo and that one doesn't seem like an apt comparison. And you seriously think anything the US has done is comparible to either of these cases? That it is just as bad? Do you seriously not get what I was saying? The only way to hold a warcrimes trial, and have it be legitimate, is to do so with international law just like international law was used as a basis to hold the trials at Nuremberg. Note the emphasis on using international law. That's the point, you don't use the legal system of the accused to put them on trial in a war crimes trial. That's all I was saying. Oi. Not sure if my previous reply posted or not. Anyway yes I get what you're saying.

Jeff_from_Kentucky -> RE: Moreover, on "War Crimes" Prosecutions will begin (6/20/2008 1:48:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fiat_lux Does America give aid to Italy? Actually yes. The United States gives yearly monetary aid to most of the other nations in the world. If we stopped doing that, our budget would be balanced and we could pay off our national debt in just a few years. But, that is a subject for another thread.

rlj -> RE: Moreover, on "War Crimes" Prosecutions will begin (6/21/2008 12:24:59 PM)
quote: Actually yes. The United States gives yearly monetary aid to most of the other nations in the world. If we stopped doing that, our budget would be balanced and we could pay off our national debt in just a few years. But, that is a subject for another thread. We don't give close to that much. I don't believe we give more or much more then the .7% of our GDP which we signed a treaty for. Individuals are generous here and we can say we're generous but it's a drop in the bucket compared to the debt. It's a drop in the bucket compared to the debt acquired since Dubya's first budget.

fiat_lux -> RE: Moreover, on "War Crimes" Prosecutions will begin (6/21/2008 2:35:24 PM)
quote: Actually yes. The United States gives yearly monetary aid to most of the other nations in the world. If we stopped doing that, our budget would be balanced and we could pay off our national debt in just a few years. But, that is a subject for another thread. I think you may have a slightly exaggerated notion of U.S. aid projects. Italy is a developed country and gives foreign aid to other countries - its development aid rate is probably higher than America's, actually. I'm not sure what aid you have in mind here but I doubt there's any, and if there is, it certainly is small enough that Italy would not care. quote: We don't give close to that much. I don't believe we give more or much more then the .7% of our GDP which we signed a treaty for. Individuals are generous here and we can say we're generous but it's a drop in the bucket compared to the debt. It's a drop in the bucket compared to the debt acquired since Dubya's first budget. In terms of giving as a proportion of wealth, the U.S. government is one of the least generous countries in the developed world. The Scandinavian countries give most. In fairness, though, except for the Scandinavian countries, I don't think any developed countries have actually met the 0.7% target, and all of us promised to do so.

rlj -> RE: Moreover, on "War Crimes" Prosecutions will begin (6/21/2008 3:03:55 PM)
quote: In terms of giving as a proportion of wealth, the U.S. government is one of the least generous countries in the developed world. The Scandinavian countries give most. In fairness, though, except for the Scandinavian countries, I don't think any developed countries have actually met the 0.7% target, and all of us promised to do so. I couldn't be any more accurate because those are some hard to find figures.

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