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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 9/7/2008 2:29:44 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: Pat-rebel_lady
I would add:
quote:
And also Matthew 25:41-46 that states, "a stranger and you did not welcome me,.....ill and in prison and you did not care for me. ...These will go off to eternal punishment....." or shall we negotiate Jesus' own words?
Matthew 25:41-46 says,
25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
25:42
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
25:43
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
25:44
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
25:45
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Where does it say anything about paying for their Health Care insurance --- just in case they should get sick one day?
I love it when people play semantics to relieve society of its Christian responsibility! 
If that's not good enough read about the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:29-37)and how he cared for the injured person paying for someone he didn't know who was from another country! A country, Israel that treated Samaritans with the upmost contempt because they didn't "follow God's law" so technically an enemy to the man. He commanded us to "go and do likewise"
The religious people passed him by so he wouldn't "break the law" and become ritually unclean!
Also Read Luke 16:19-31 and James Chapter 2.
James 2:16 "and if one of you says 'Go in peace, keep warm and eat well, but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is that?" So what good was just visiting the sick if not to care for them?
What does you desire for the government to be the sole provider off all things have to do with you mention of Christian responsibility and society? You are playing both sides...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 9/7/2008 2:57:20 PM
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Pat-rebel_lady
Posts: 689
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: Pat-rebel_lady
I would add:
quote:
And also Matthew 25:41-46 that states, "a stranger and you did not welcome me,.....ill and in prison and you did not care for me. ...These will go off to eternal punishment....." or shall we negotiate Jesus' own words?
Matthew 25:41-46 says,
25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
25:42
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
25:43
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
25:44
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
25:45
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Where does it say anything about paying for their Health Care insurance --- just in case they should get sick one day?
I love it when people play semantics to relieve society of its Christian responsibility!
If that's not good enough read about the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:29-37)and how he cared for the injured person paying for someone he didn't know who was from another country! A country, Israel that treated Samaritans with the upmost contempt because they didn't "follow God's law" so technically an enemy to the man. He commanded us to "go and do likewise"
The religious people passed him by so he wouldn't "break the law" and become ritually unclean!
Also Read Luke 16:19-31 and James Chapter 2.
James 2:16 "and if one of you says 'Go in peace, keep warm and eat well, but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is that?" So what good was just visiting the sick if not to care for them?
mapachito13, Please help me out here; since you quoted me, are you talking to me (?), when you say,"I love it when people play semantics to relieve society of its Christian responsibility!
If that's not good enough read about the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:29-37)and how ...."
Does anyone want to answer my question presented in post #822?
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 9/7/2008 2:59:07 PM
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womaninchrist
Posts: 456
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Honestly, realistically and most importantly Biblically how on Earth is it stealing when someone accepts the sort of readily provided government assistance - like government provided medical care or health insurance -that they need for their survival? That's something the government has chosen to do with the taxes it has chosen to collect from its people. Why shouldn't an eligible citizen use such a service?
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 9/7/2008 3:30:23 PM
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Pat-rebel_lady
Posts: 689
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quote:
::sigh:: It's a GENERAL PRINCIPAL of taking care of those who have less. Some of us believe that should include health insurance that's affordable for everyone.
Maybe I should say: I have less than most people that you are talking about. I have an income (S.S. Retirement) of $530.00 a month, of which I pay $90.00 a month for Medicare; which Does Not cover everything---there is still out of pocket expenses we must meet. Hubby has $1415.00 (S.S, Retirement) income per month; of which we pay over $2,000.00 a year for Health Insurance for him (Medicare & Blue Cross Blue Shield). We can't afforded for me to have added Insurance --- I opted out Because this month like most other months it's: After paying this months bill, we have $125.00 in our savings account, $58.00 in Checking account, and $40.00 on hand to last until the 28th of this month. And we are still caring for many of the needs of '2' others in our home. Taxing me [us] more to pay for Health Insurance for others limits my ability to care of others in other needed ways.. Why should I be happy about being forced to pay more taxes for this purpose [H.I.] that doesn't meet their other needs?
< Message edited by Pat-rebel_lady -- 9/7/2008 4:13:28 PM >
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 9/7/2008 7:52:39 PM
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relady
Posts: 1286
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
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quote:
Taxing me [us] more to pay for Health Insurance for others limits my ability to care of others in other needed ways.. Why should I be happy about being forced to pay more taxes for this purpose [H.I.] that doesn't meet their other needs? I doubt you would be taxed any more, and would actually probably pay less than you do now under Obama's plan. Keep voting for Repubs and your SS will get taken away if they have their way and "privatize" everything. Then you'll be in a really fine mess. I'm attempting to vote for someone I think will do his best to make things BETTER for most of us at the bottom of totem pole, rather than worse.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 9/7/2008 9:30:56 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 777
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Pat-rebel_lady
quote:
The government has no moral, constitutional, or competent professional basis for "taking over" health care in this or any other country. The health insurance industry is in shambles because their goal is making money, NOT improving the quality of health care. Far too many of my fellow physicians have given up on the doctor-patient relationship because patients don't pay, instead their insurance pays (and rather poorly!), and that insurance is purchased by big uncaring businesses trying to save as much money as possible. If you really want health care reform, why not turn back to simple fee-for-service medicine and let the doctor and the patient determine the amount, quality, and cost of health care!
YES, YES, YES; AMEN!!! 
Add another YES to that for me too!
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 9/7/2008 9:45:02 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 777
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
Truth be known, I don't care about 'illegals' or those, poor or otherwise, citizens who are not held liable to paying --- in money or deed (work it off) --- to repay in some way, so others can receive what they did. They've sucked the system we have in place now dry --- we don't want more of this, through Socialized/Public Medical Care. well, at least you're honest in admitting you don't care. How do you think Jesus would feel about that?
But what about those who are able to work but refuse to? Those who choose to live with less money because that sounds better to them than a long days work? Why is it that there is something wrong with some of us saying we do not feel it is right to have to pay for them, or that we do not want to pay for them? After all, if they don't want to pay for themselves, why should I care more about their financial situation than they themselves do? It makes no sense to me.
Helping the poor is one thing. But to be perfectly honest, "poor" is an extremely overused term in this country. What poor means in the good old USA is quite different than what poor means in many other countries. Funny how no one for socialized medicine in this thread seems to worry about that though. If you want good health coverage for all, why not worry first about those in genuinely poor countries instead of those in the US who by comparison get first class healthcare round the board?
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 9/7/2008 11:17:39 PM
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relady
Posts: 1286
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
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quote:
If you want good health coverage for all, why not worry first about those in genuinely poor countries instead of those in the US who by comparison get first class healthcare round the board? Yup, anything to get the focus off Americans who need help, because, gee, they really don't need it. Good grief.
First off, America does provide billions in aid to other countries every year. Secondly, it's not our job to provide every thing for every one in the world. I've never advocated that and I don't plan to start soon. If America was truly worried about human rights & all that in foreign countries, we would have been in Afghanistan a decade before 9/11 when the Taliban took over and started their horrendous mysogynistic campaign agains women. Or we would be in Darfur NOW, instead of Iraq.
This conversation is about health care in America, not the world.
quote:
But what about those who are able to work but refuse to? Those who choose to live with less money because that sounds better to them than a long days work? Seriously, those are a minority. But in terms of health care? I don't care if you are working or not. Everyone should have access to good adequate health care.
John, you are really good at ridiculing just about any position other than your own. Do you have proof that Obama's plan would cost the poster I was speaking with more than she is paying now? For someone in her position, I seriously doubt SHE would be paying more.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 9/8/2008 12:01:59 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
John, you are really good at ridiculing just about any position other than your own. Do you have proof that Obama's plan would cost the poster I was speaking with more than she is paying now? For someone in her position, I seriously doubt SHE would be paying more.
The government's track record...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 9/8/2008 12:17:09 AM
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Pat-rebel_lady
Posts: 689
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
Taxing me [us] more to pay for Health Insurance for others limits my ability to care of others in other needed ways.. Why should I be happy about being forced to pay more taxes for this purpose [H.I.] that doesn't meet their other needs?
Read the fine print on Obama's plan. He Taxes, you BUY affordable Health Insurance --- you Don't get it Free --- Between the new taxes and what 'he' would deem "affordable", I Would be forced, mandated, required to buy --- paying more. quote:
I doubt you would be taxed any more, and would actually probably pay less than you do now under Obama's plan.
I tell you what, you get it in writing just what Obama's plan is and you show me what he calls "affordable", and show me how the end result will be different than what we already have; except the added tax burden.
quote:
Keep voting for Repubs and your SS will get taken away if they have their way and "privatize" everything. Then you'll be in a really fine mess.
I disagree, I think you have your parties mixed up on this issue. But this isn't the place to talk about that issue.
quote:
I'm attempting to vote for someone I think will do his best to make things BETTER for most of us at the bottom of totem pole, rather than worse.
As John Wayne said in 'Hondo',
"A long time ago I made me a rule: To let people do what they're going to do."
And
"Man ought to do what he thinks is best."
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 9/8/2008 4:34:35 AM
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Bob_George
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I don't know why people are complaining about Obama's health care plan. It wont get passed. The Democratic congress already has a health care plan that will be one of the first things to come across Obama's desk when he's President. He wont veto a good plan for universal health care in favour of his own health care plan that will take longer to get passed.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 9/8/2008 7:49:35 AM
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Pat-rebel_lady
Posts: 689
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bob_George
I don't know why people are complaining about Obama's health care plan. It wont get passed. The Democratic congress already has a health care plan that will be one of the first things to come across Obama's desk when he's President. He wont veto a good plan for universal health care in favour of his own health care plan that will take longer to get passed.
That may be true BUT I wouldn't trust it either. WHY? Because Democratic are Not trustworthy, if this was "a good plan for universal health care" than it wouldn't be sitting in secret just waiting for a Democratic President in order to get it passed. How could I possibly trust something like that; Party or plan?
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 9/8/2008 1:01:00 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 387
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Well then "Christians" in this country aren't doing their job right. Hence the government of this so-called Christian nation should step in since Romans 13:4 says "for it is a servant of God for your good."
Where is it in the Bible where Jesus says we're supposed to walk by our ill people with an uncaring attitute.
Who says we do? Y'all keep saying that the church isn't 'taking up the slack' or caring for the poor. Do you have anything to back that up? My church does. So did my old church. Our deacons committe was always helping those in need, sick and/or poor. Even if they weren't, do you really think the federal government is going to live up to it's Biblical mandate to be a servant for our good? Why to you take such a judgemental stance against the church for supposedly failing in it's responsibility, yet advocate full trust in government to fulfill it's biblical role? That's beyond naive.
quote:
And also Matthew 25:41-46 that states, "a stranger and you did not welcome me,.....ill and in prison and you did not care for me. ...These will go off to eternal punishment....." or shall we negotiate Jesus' own words?
So if we don't adopt universal health care in this country, we're guilty of this??? Huh?
quote:
Also, a government bureaucracy is made up of people aren't they? Or are there no Christians working for the feds? The majority of this country claim to be "Christian" where is this "moral majority"?
Again, beyond naive...
quote:
But throw the "socialist" strawman in the fray to justify not caring for the sick.
Like John said, the socialist agenda is very real. Dangerously real.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 9/8/2008 1:13:19 PM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
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quote:
Who says we do? Y'all keep saying that the church isn't 'taking up the slack' or caring for the poor. Do you have anything to back that up? My church does. So did my old church. Our deacons committe was always helping those in need, sick and/or poor. Even if they weren't, do you really think the federal government is going to live up to it's Biblical mandate to be a servant for our good? Why to you take such a judgemental stance against the church for supposedly failing in it's responsibility, yet advocate full trust in government to fulfill it's biblical role? That's beyond naive.
Tell it. If people don't belong to Chruches that are busy doing these sorts of things they need to stop complaining and get busy working. It's the "individuals" who make up the Church.
quote:
So if we don't adopt universal health care in this country, we're guilty of this??? Huh?
I think they are saying that universal health care mean we all get to go to heaven. 
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 9/8/2008 1:19:35 PM
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womaninchrist
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And the greed and lack of compassion that commonly accompany the Capitalist and Republican agendas are also very real problems that must be addressed. We're not supposed to be accepting one wrong or set of wrongs just beause it's not or doesn't include a particular other wrong...
I'm still waiting to hear how accepting government offered assistance is stealing too. The government has both legal and Biblical rights to taxation and the same rights to do as it sees fit with tax monies. So how does that make it stealing if someone accepts the help of, for example, Medicaid?
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 9/8/2008 2:06:06 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: womaninchrist
And the greed and lack of compassion that commonly accompany the Capitalist and Republican agendas are also very real problems that must be addressed.
Given the amount of millionaires with a D in front or their name and their agendas greed and lack of compassion isn't problem for just one side..
quote:
The government has both legal and Biblical rights to taxation and the same rights to do as it sees fit with tax monies.
The government legally is supposed to answer to the people and not serve its own interest of taking control over those it's supposed to represent and serve.
As well the foundation of the government devised by those who set it up never envisioned it being overbearing controlling factor it has been perverted into so that those who have gained control can use it to remain in in control...
And yes biblical it has rights to tax, though with that right to comes responsibility. The government isn't given a blank check to operate as it sees fit...
quote:
So how does that make it stealing if someone accepts the help of, for example, Medicaid?
If they can afford to pay and fraud the system that is stealing...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 9/8/2008 2:44:38 PM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
The government has both legal and Biblical rights to taxation and the same rights to do as it sees fit with tax monies.
Sorry but you are incorrect.
Did scripture give Hitler the right to tax people to pay for the murder of the Jews?
That China has a right to tax people and use that money to kill the unborn and those born with birth defects because God gave them this "right" in the bible?
Read what God says is the "purpose" of the government.
Romans 13
3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing.
Please don't tell me that the institution of the government cannot and is not many times just as perverted as the institution of marriage and the church.
Degenerated man often times "perverts' what is suppose to be for our good into something that ends up being for our bad.
quote:
And the greed and lack of compassion that commonly accompany the Capitalist and Republican agendas are also very real problems that must be addressed.
This is also false. It's been pretty well documented that conservatives give more money, time and even their own blood to help people in need than liberals do.
Arthur C. Brooks, “Who Really Cares: The Surprising Truth About Compassionate Conservatism.”
Brooks is a registered independent.
"Although liberal families' incomes average 6 percent higher than those of conservative families, conservative-headed households give, on average, 30 percent more to charity than the average liberal-headed household ($1,600 per year versus $1,227).
Conservatives also donate more time and give more blood. "
< Message edited by P31W -- 9/8/2008 3:06:40 PM >
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 9/8/2008 3:06:02 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3143
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quote:
I know doctors who are up in arms about going from making a million a year to a *measly* $900,000. My goodness, I must be in the wrong specialty!
Here is a more realistic SURVEY OF PHYSICIAN SALARIES. BTW, malpractice premiums for some specialties start at $250,000 per year. What a doctor grosses is far from what a doctor "makes"!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 9/8/2008 8:58:39 PM
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womaninchrist
Posts: 456
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I didn't say "conservatives". I said Republicans and Capitalists. Still my point stands. Greed - or any other sin - is still a sin and should be fought anywhere we find it. My experience has been Capitalists of the sort that want the unfettered right to make as much as possible without legal restrictions or even the moral/ethical duty to pay reasonable wages or provide reasonable working conditions. It's also been Republicans of the "don't tax me, you can't take that - it's MY money" sort. Doesn't matter if it's police, fire, sidewalks or publc health - they don't want to pay any taxes if any of "their" money is going towards any of that, since they, in their minds, "don't use it".
BTW, previous postings didn't differentiate "fraudulent" users of whatever assistance. The implication was that all users were stealing. Fraudulent users I could see, but that should have been made clear - and it wasn't. I cannot see how all users would be stealing.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 9/8/2008 9:16:17 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: womaninchrist
I didn't say "conservatives". I said Republicans and Capitalists. Still my point stands. Greed - or any other sin - is still a sin and should be fought anywhere we find it. My experience has been Capitalists of the sort that want the unfettered right to make as much as possible without legal restrictions or even the moral/ethical duty to pay reasonable wages or provide reasonable working conditions. It's also been Republicans of the "don't tax me, you can't take that - it's MY money" sort. Doesn't matter if it's police, fire, sidewalks or publc health - they don't want to pay any taxes if any of "their" money is going towards any of that, since they, in their minds, "don't use it".
That's a mighty fine windmill you are swatting at...
quote:
BTW, previous postings didn't differentiate "fraudulent" users of whatever assistance. The implication was that all users were stealing. Fraudulent users I could see, but that should have been made clear - and it wasn't. I cannot see how all users would be stealing.
Actually they did... If we are talking about the same post it mention those able to pay, but don't... That's fraud...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 9/9/2008 7:59:15 AM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2508
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Hey, maybe the sick are that way due to God's wrath? I know I can find a Bible passage in the OT to back that up!
Good luck...
Psalms 107:17 Stricken because of their wicked ways and afflicted because of their sins.
quote:
quote:
While we're at it let's get rid of unemployment benefits, Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security. There's nowhere in the Bible that mentions those things either
Fine by me...
Good because there is over 6% of the workforce "leaching off" the rest of us who work! And let's not whine when "American" jobs go overseas!
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quote:
Either way the church has got a lot to answer for because even with this "socialistic" government help the church sure ain't picking up the slack!
The church is the last thing many folks around here want to be in the center of things... God gets mentioned, but in the end the government is the answer in too many minds...
Like the way conservatives feel the government knows better and will protect us from terrorists?
quote:
quote:
BTW, when was it that poor people became evil?
Are you talking about folks who leach off others, or the actually poor? It's seem you can't discern the difference...
It seems to some that those without means that need some government assistance just to get by are lumped into the "leaching off others" category.
How about the rich companies that leach off the government. Defense contractors, pharmaceutical and mortgage companies and banks are leaching off our government with no complaints from the right!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 9/9/2008 8:15:09 AM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
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quote:
Still my point stands. Greed - or any other sin - is still a sin and should be fought anywhere we find it.
What about thou shalt not covet.......
What about thou shalt not steal.......
What about hunger is good if it makes you work......
quote:
How about the rich companies that leach off the government. Defense contractors, pharmaceutical and mortgage companies and banks are leaching off our government with no complaints from the right!
You mean leaching off of TAXPAYERS......yes we complain and complain LOUDLY!!!!!!
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 9/9/2008 8:18:38 AM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
The church is the last thing many folks around here want to be in the center of things... God gets mentioned, but in the end the government is the answer in too many minds...
This is so very true. Too many "professing Christians" don't want to be held accountable for their own actions and don't what to help hold others accountable for their actions either.
So they run to the government who won't care if they are having sex with everyone in town, using drugs and not working because they don't want to work enough hours per week to support themselves or their families.
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HA 
I know doctors who are up in arms about going from making a million a year to a *measly* $900,000. Nice to see some can look past profit and business, and see lives and people.