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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/22/2008 5:31:47 PM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 726
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
Maybe he doesn't think they will be be fixed, but thinks they need to be fixed. :) They can be fixed, but it's doubtful and unlikely (imo).
THANK YOU!
Finally someone who understands what I've been saying. The programs need to be fixed and that would very likely solve the problem. However since this is the common sense approach no one will touch it.
Well then what is the need for another system? This is what I have been saying! We already have a system in place to take care of the poor. FIX THE SYSTEM WE ALREADY HAVE, do not add more programs destined for failure.
If it is so absolutely impossible that the current system could ever be fixed, then what on earth does everyone think is going to happen when an even BIGGER government run program has problems?
That's what I've been saying from the beginning. Fix what's there because it can be fixed, of course since that's the common sense solution it won't be done.
Plus there's that little thing about those programs being stealing. Because those dirty poor people just covet everything that hard working people like rc have. (I realize that this is a rather intense piece of sarcasm but I'm at the end of my rope trying to convince people that these programs and asking for help aren't somehow a new sin or stealing or any other such nonsense.)
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/22/2008 5:46:08 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 720
Joined: 1/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
That's what I've been saying from the beginning. Fix what's there because it can be fixed, of course since that's the common sense solution it won't be done.
Plus there's that little thing about those programs being stealing. Because those dirty poor people just covet everything that hard working people like rc have. (I realize that this is a rather intense piece of sarcasm but I'm at the end of my rope trying to convince people that these programs and asking for help aren't somehow a new sin or stealing or any other such nonsense.)
I thought you were calling for a true universal socialized healthcare system? 
Anyway, I must say I do think even the current system is forced charity, and a form of thievery, and far too many times the money is given to those who are lazy and do nothing to help themselves. I disagree with this. Imagine how much better the truly poor and needy would be if the people could decide to whom their money was going to help instead of the government choose. Also the lazy bums trying to get a free ride through life would probably have to step up and actually do something to help themselves instead of relying on the rest of us. Ahhhh, if only it could be so easy....
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/22/2008 7:25:09 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3808
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
I actually don't have any faith at all in the govt. I just think that the Medicaid and Medicare programs need to be fixed so that people who need the assistance can get it without the huge hassle that it is now.
No faith in the government yet you want their programs fixed...
If you have no faith in the government shouldn't you want the programs stopped since they are not doing the job?
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The constitution even says that people have an inalienable right to life, that would seem to indicate that health care is a right since it does help one live.
When did the Supreme Court make such a ruling?
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So I ask, what's the solution? Many of you who are just nay saying everything...
No, we are saying the government isn't that answer...
John
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/22/2008 7:27:13 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3808
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
Maybe he doesn't think they will be be fixed, but thinks they need to be fixed. :) They can be fixed, but it's doubtful and unlikely (imo).
THANK YOU!
Finally someone who understands what I've been saying. The programs need to be fixed and that would very likely solve the problem. However since this is the common sense approach no one will touch it.
Of course the problem is the programs themselves, but lets not deal with the reality. Let's pretend that what is broke can fix itself...
John
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/22/2008 8:32:48 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 225
Joined: 6/7/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
Maybe he doesn't think they will be be fixed, but thinks they need to be fixed. :) They can be fixed, but it's doubtful and unlikely (imo).
THANK YOU!
Finally someone who understands what I've been saying. The programs need to be fixed and that would very likely solve the problem. However since this is the common sense approach no one will touch it.
How is it common sense to try fixing programs that are unlikely to be fixable? Those programs are as good as they are going to get. Why do you so strongly advocate fixing the Meds., jk? How would you fix them? Why not advocate for reforming Christian culture towards health care assistance to the poor? Why is that any less achievable that Medicare/Medicaid reform? If you advocated for that, not only would I step aside for you, I might even join you.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/22/2008 10:30:19 PM
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relady
Posts: 961
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
Status: offline
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quote:
Again, just because it has never happened to you does not mean it is false. and just because it DID happen to you does not mean it happens regularly. I do not believe it does. I know what my insurance company paid for my surgery and it was under $3K. they would never have negotiated my bill to that if I had been uninsured.
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I wonder what some people on these forums would do if they lived somewhere else in the world and TRULY did not have access to healthcare. a whole lot of us would die a lot younger and our average life expectancy would be 35 or 45 instead of 75. Average life expectancy, infant mortality rates and such are all much MUCH worse in countries where the majority of people don't have access to medical care, whether because of lack of doctors or insurance. Doesn't really matter why you don't get treatment. If you don't, you die much younger.
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Oh well I suppose now we ought to send those without health insurance who pay nothing towards a premium to a better hospital than most in the average family use now, hmm? Not better, but at lease equal. Everyone should have access to adequate health care. You should not get better care than me just because you can pay more for it.
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Let me reiterate that tax money is not theft. My desire to see public monies (i.e. taxes) used for the public good isn't even remotely based on being covetous and I resent the implication that it does. Ditto and thank you!
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It's patently offensive that we're even debating whether or not they "deserve" help. It's not stealing to use public monies (i.e. taxes) for the public good. Health care is part and parcel of the public good. Seriously. It's something I would expect to encounter on a forum full of athiests but not Christians.
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The poor already have access to free healthcare. Haaahahaaa. LOL, another myth. They don't all have access to free health care. When my son was employed but without insurance I assure you he did not received free health care anywhere, nor was any caregiver even willing to discuss charging him less just because he didn't have insurance. He went without medical care for the most part, and so did his GF who has serious female issues that could be life threatening. But everyone she went to charged her full price and expected her to pay it whether she was working or not.
It is painfully obvious from many of the attitudes on this board toward the poor that if it was just left to the "church" to take care of the poor that will never happen. Never did. That's why the government got involved in the first place. I don't see any evidence that anything has changed to the extent that we should even be considering getting the government out of the "helping the poor" business. To the contrary, I see more need and less help all the time.
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then NONE of us, especially the poor, will have access to reliable, quality health care. At least the playing field would be more even. 
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/22/2008 11:26:33 PM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 726
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
I actually don't have any faith at all in the govt. I just think that the Medicaid and Medicare programs need to be fixed so that people who need the assistance can get it without the huge hassle that it is now.
No faith in the government yet you want their programs fixed...
If you have no faith in the government shouldn't you want the programs stopped since they are not doing the job?
quote:
The constitution even says that people have an inalienable right to life, that would seem to indicate that health care is a right since it does help one live.
When did the Supreme Court make such a ruling?
quote:
So I ask, what's the solution? Many of you who are just nay saying everything...
No, we are saying the government isn't that answer...
John
We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights. That among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
One cannot have life without health care, nor can one be free to pursue happiness if they're sick all the time and not able to pay for health care. 2+2=4
It's not that hard to figure out if you bother to think about it.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/23/2008 8:56:55 AM
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TaoPoohBear
Posts: 317
Joined: 1/18/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
Why is it that everything in your world must boil down to political alliances? Has it ever crossed your mind that maybe some people could care less about such silliness? Not everyone forms their belief system by drinking the kool-aid, TaoPoohBear.
History is what it is Sophie, not what you wish it to be.
(I notice you didn't refute it!)
I had no intention of finding this stuff out, it came up on my search on America's quest for better health care. I was VERY SURPRISED that the Health Care Reform Bill was torpedoed not by beliefs but by cold calculating political gain.
Should I have ignored it?!
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/23/2008 9:18:14 AM
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TaoPoohBear
Posts: 317
Joined: 1/18/2008
Status: offline
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Facts on the Cost of Health Insurance and Health Care
The system is broken, for those of you who don't like the "government fix" -
Opt Out!quote:
If a national plan were offered, healthcare professionals would like it to be flexible, and 62% of the respondents declared that individuals should be able to opt out. For those patients who can afford a higher private plan, they should be able to opt out, but everyone should have proof of insurance.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/23/2008 11:39:58 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 720
Joined: 1/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
Again, just because it has never happened to you does not mean it is false. and just because it DID happen to you does not mean it happens regularly. I do not believe it does. I know what my insurance company paid for my surgery and it was under $3K. they would never have negotiated my bill to that if I had been uninsured.
Well I guess since it always comes down to your personal experience alone I had better not argue. 
quote:
quote:
I wonder what some people on these forums would do if they lived somewhere else in the world and TRULY did not have access to healthcare. a whole lot of us would die a lot younger and our average life expectancy would be 35 or 45 instead of 75. Average life expectancy, infant mortality rates and such are all much MUCH worse in countries where the majority of people don't have access to medical care, whether because of lack of doctors or insurance. Doesn't really matter why you don't get treatment. If you don't, you die much younger.
Were you just making my point for me? I am confused. 
quote:
quote:
Oh well I suppose now we ought to send those without health insurance who pay nothing towards a premium to a better hospital than most in the average family use now, hmm? Not better, but at lease equal. Everyone should have access to adequate health care. You should not get better care than me just because you can pay more for it.
Most of the time people go to hospitals closest to their home. If someone wants easy access to the best hospitals, then they should move near whatever ones they prefer and they will have it.
quote:
quote:
It's patently offensive that we're even debating whether or not they "deserve" help. It's not stealing to use public monies (i.e. taxes) for the public good. Health care is part and parcel of the public good. Seriously. It's something I would expect to encounter on a forum full of athiests but not Christians.
Oh so now all of us who are against socialized medicine are more like atheists? That's quite a statement.
quote:
quote:
The poor already have access to free healthcare. Haaahahaaa. LOL, another myth. They don't all have access to free health care. When my son was employed but without insurance I assure you he did not received free health care anywhere, nor was any caregiver even willing to discuss charging him less just because he didn't have insurance. He went without medical care for the most part, and so did his GF who has serious female issues that could be life threatening. But everyone she went to charged her full price and expected her to pay it whether she was working or not.
They have access to free health insurance if they qualify (that means truly poor and not just someone who spends their money unwisely) and so choose to take the time to apply and go through the steps to get it.
quote:
It is painfully obvious from many of the attitudes on this board toward the poor that if it was just left to the "church" to take care of the poor that will never happen. Never did. That's why the government got involved in the first place. I don't see any evidence that anything has changed to the extent that we should even be considering getting the government out of the "helping the poor" business. To the contrary, I see more need and less help all the time.
So let me get this straight, you see more need and less help all the time, but you want the government to get more involved because they can surely make everything better even though you don't think they do a good job now. Then on the other hand you see more need and less help all the time and you say the church is useless and help would never happen if left up to the church. Hmmm.
What was that again you were saying about the attitudes of those in this forum?
And also you've obviously ignored testimonies of help they have given and continue to give from others on this thread, who many by the way are also against universal healthcare.
quote:
quote:
then NONE of us, especially the poor, will have access to reliable, quality health care. At least the playing field would be more even.
Wow, that is such a socialistic, er um I mean heartwarming caring statement. 
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/23/2008 11:46:08 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 720
Joined: 1/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
One cannot have life without health care, nor can one be free to pursue happiness if they're sick all the time and not able to pay for health care. 2+2=4
One also cannot have life without food and shelter, but the last I checked the government wasn't using the tax money to buy caviar and truffles for those on welfare, and neither were they putting them up in multi-million dollar mansions. The government provides health insurance for the poor. Most of the time these people receive the same kind of care that normal middle class Americans get, not the kind of care that the billionaires of the world can get. And either way, even billionaires die. No one so far has been able to purchase immortality.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/23/2008 11:53:10 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 720
Joined: 1/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
Why is it that everything in your world must boil down to political alliances? Has it ever crossed your mind that maybe some people could care less about such silliness? Not everyone forms their belief system by drinking the kool-aid, TaoPoohBear.
History is what it is Sophie, not what you wish it to be.
(I notice you didn't refute it!)
I had no intention of finding this stuff out, it came up on my search on America's quest for better health care. I was VERY SURPRISED that the Health Care Reform Bill was torpedoed not by beliefs but by cold calculating political gain.
Should I have ignored it?!
I never said ignore it of course. But you were not only speaking of the history of politicians.
quote:
Interesting thread, with Conservatives lock-step in the belief that Government always fails and will never work for you (of course, having Bush as a President, who can blame them? )
You might want to read this -
quote:
Read the article Conservatives! I would submit you've been duped, and are parroting the lies of "your" politicians who played this issue just to grab power.
These statements had more to do with you insinuating that all of us on this thread who believe the government ruins all it touches must be conservatives and must be simply following our political "leaders". I was saying that is not true.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/23/2008 12:11:42 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2315
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
One cannot have life without health care, nor can one be free to pursue happiness if they're sick all the time and not able to pay for health care. 2+2=4
One also cannot have life without food and shelter, but the last I checked the government wasn't using the tax money to buy caviar and truffles for those on welfare, and neither were they putting them up in multi-million dollar mansions. The government provides health insurance for the poor. Most of the time these people receive the same kind of care that normal middle class Americans get, not the kind of care that the billionaires of the world can get. And either way, even billionaires die. No one so far has been able to purchase immortality.
Where are all the poor people who get the same standard of care as middle class Americans? Maybe I see it differently because of what I've been exposed to in medical ethics. <shrugs> I guess I can't say which "most" is getting, although from what I see, little to none get the same care as the middle class. Is there some evidence that this is true of the poor and their healthcare?
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
"Sometimes I Wonder Why" (Blog entry)
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/23/2008 12:22:31 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 720
Joined: 1/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
One cannot have life without health care, nor can one be free to pursue happiness if they're sick all the time and not able to pay for health care. 2+2=4
One also cannot have life without food and shelter, but the last I checked the government wasn't using the tax money to buy caviar and truffles for those on welfare, and neither were they putting them up in multi-million dollar mansions. The government provides health insurance for the poor. Most of the time these people receive the same kind of care that normal middle class Americans get, not the kind of care that the billionaires of the world can get. And either way, even billionaires die. No one so far has been able to purchase immortality.
Where are all the poor people who get the same standard of care as middle class Americans? Maybe I see it differently because of what I've been exposed to in medical ethics. <shrugs> I guess I can't say which "most" is getting, although from what I see, little to none get the same care as the middle class. Is there some evidence that this is true of the poor and their healthcare?
Well I suppose since there are so many different types of health insurance and plans, that would first need to be defined. If you are talking about normal medical care, then yes the poor receive that through medicaid. Other services offered through medicaid vary from state to state.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/23/2008 12:24:12 PM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 726
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
One cannot have life without health care, nor can one be free to pursue happiness if they're sick all the time and not able to pay for health care. 2+2=4
One also cannot have life without food and shelter, but the last I checked the government wasn't using the tax money to buy caviar and truffles for those on welfare, and neither were they putting them up in multi-million dollar mansions. The government provides health insurance for the poor. Most of the time these people receive the same kind of care that normal middle class Americans get, not the kind of care that the billionaires of the world can get. And either way, even billionaires die. No one so far has been able to purchase immortality.
Where are all the poor people who get the same standard of care as middle class Americans? Maybe I see it differently because of what I've been exposed to in medical ethics. <shrugs> I guess I can't say which "most" is getting, although from what I see, little to none get the same care as the middle class. Is there some evidence that this is true of the poor and their healthcare?
Well I suppose since there are so many different types of health insurance and plans, that would first need to be defined. If you are talking about normal medical care, then yes the poor receive that through medicaid. Other services offered through medicaid vary from state to state.
Have you ever actually tried to get Medicaid? It's not easy by a longshot. It's a broken system and needs to be fixed.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/23/2008 12:26:48 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2315
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
Status: offline
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Even the poor with medicaid/medicare can't always get the same level of care as normal middle-class Americans. I know people who this happens to more often than not...personally and just from study. That was my point. I don't see that most poor (even with medicaid/medicare) can truly get that same level of care, but if someone has some decent evidence I'd love to see it. I've never known it to be that way... if it were exactly the same I'd think much better of medicare/medicaid.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
"Sometimes I Wonder Why" (Blog entry)
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/23/2008 12:30:45 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 720
Joined: 1/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
Even the poor with medicaid/medicare can't always get the same level of care as normal middle-class Americans. I know people who this happens to more often than not...personally and just from study. That was my point. I don't see that most poor (even with medicaid/medicare) can truly get that same level of care, but if someone has some decent evidence I'd love to see it. I've never known it to be that way... if it were exactly the same I'd think much better of medicare/medicaid.
Well see even if that is the case, I go back to my previous post about the caviar and mansions.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/23/2008 12:38:07 PM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 6076
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: CA
Status: offline
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Those of you who are opposed to socialized medical care- have you ever used gov't medical care of any type before?
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/23/2008 3:39:24 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2929
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
There is a problem in this country where people can not have access to healthcare mainly because they are poor. Health insurance is so high that even many people who work forgo it. At some time in everyone's life you are going to have to go to the doctor. This usually involves a trip to the emergency room because that is the only avenue that is available - overloading that very valuable resource.
If people or their children don't have access to healthcare we can risk these sicknesses developing into possibly worse communicable diseases putting the rest of us at risk so a healthy poulation benefits us all and our kids in school.
So the question remains. How can we give access to healthcare for all to fulfill the command Jesus gave us to care for the ill (Matthew 25:36) be it socialized healthcare or another solution? How about focusing on the solution instead of the problem?
Stop allowing hospitals to charge insurance companies quadruple what they charge someone paying cash. I imagine that would be a fine place to start.
The only problem I have with that is it typically costs hospitals more to deal with patients who have insurance. So why not give the people a break who do not require as many man hours to bill?
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 7/23/2008 6:10:16 PM
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If the church is responsible for the poor then why hasn't the church come up with a way to take care of this problem that has been here since even before the time of the Good Samaritan. (He paid for a man's "hospital" stay and he didn't even know him!) 
