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ORIGINAL: jkdjr25

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ORIGINAL: Sophie11

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ORIGINAL: jkdjr25

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ORIGINAL: Sophie11

When you want the government to impose loads of new taxes on the rich in order to pay for something, all it is is expecting the government to steal for you.

Straw man argument.

I've never supported "loads of new taxes" I simplly support a sliding scale based on incomce, that's hardly a new idea.

You're right. We already have medicare and medicaid. And they are working quite well, no?

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But hey let's just get rid of taxes all together. Then we can have the so called "free market" run everything and the poor will just be worse and worse off while the haves control everthing more than they already do. Maybe we should set up some more workhouses like they used to do things, then we wouldn't have to even look at those filthy poor people. Nothing like the sweet satisfaction of keeping one's money to one's self to warm the cockles of the heart eh?

Nothing like waiting for the government to reach into someone else's pocket and then proclaim yourself as some sort of Robin Hood type saviour either, eh?

1. Medicare and Medicaid don't actually work. I know becaue I'm still waiting on my own Medicaid appeal ruling. It's set up to not work, despite what proponents say about it. There needs to be a fix for the system so the people who really do need the help can get it. That's all most people want because it's just plain common sense.

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2. Nice touch with the self righteous indignation there. Epic fail but a nice try none the less.

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ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
BZZT! another strawman.

This is grossly inacurrate. By overhauling the system and cutting the nonsensical things, like studying cow poop, the money is there. It just takes the will to see it through.

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ORIGINAL: rcjames

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ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
BZZT! another strawman.

This is grossly inacurrate. By overhauling the system and cutting the nonsensical things, like studying cow poop, the money is there. It just takes the will to see it through.

And you call yourself a greenie liberal; and do not want to study the no.1 cause of greenhouse gasses in the whole world; flautation and poop of animals..

Better turn in yoour pink t-shirt.

Thanks
RC

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ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
A totally separate issue. The point is they get the care. It happened to me once. (refer to my post #247 on this thread). We worked out a payment schedule. My family helped a little. That's life. And the hospital was very patient and understanding. I'm sure there are some cases like you claim, but again, the rhetoric doesn't match reality.

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jkdjr25
It's not a seperate issue at all. Payment is part and parcel of the problem when there are too many people who can't pay for one reason or another. I've gone over my situation at length only to be told that it didn't count or that I was somehow coveting other people's stuff because I need help. That's the attitude that a lot of people who need get face and that's why we need a better system in place to help them get it easier and with less hassle.

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ORIGINAL: jkdjr25

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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

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ORIGINAL: jkdjr25

I've never supported "loads of new taxes"

If you advocate the government getting involved in health care you can't help but support loads of new taxes...

John

BZZT! another strawman.

This is grossly inacurrate. By overhauling the system and cutting the nonsensical things, like studying cow poop, the money is there. It just takes the will to see it through.

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No one is stopping you from selling all you own and giving the money to the poor tracydolls.

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ORIGINAL: tracydolls

Taxes pay for weapons of mass destruction, WAR, bailout banks, abortions, etc.

but let's not do what the Bible says and help the poor.

The bible says the church is to help the poor..

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ORIGINAL: tracydolls

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No one is stopping you from selling all you own and giving the money to the poor tracydolls.

And no one is stopping you either. What people are trying to stop is the fair distribution of some monies. People should have health care. The poor should not have to die like they do, suffering. We certainly have the money, hospitals, doctors, medicine, etc. Not only are WE not helping, we are throwing them out of hospitals.

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ORIGINAL: tracydolls

Taxes pay for weapons of mass destruction, WAR, bailout banks, abortions, etc.

but let's not do what the Bible says and help the poor.

The bible says the church is to help the poor..

So we as Christians ARE NOT to help the poor?

The sad part is alot of people believe that. LOL.

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ORIGINAL: Sophie11

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ORIGINAL: tracydolls

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No one is stopping you from selling all you own and giving the money to the poor tracydolls.

And no one is stopping you either. What people are trying to stop is the fair distribution of some monies. People should have health care. The poor should not have to die like they do, suffering. We certainly have the money, hospitals, doctors, medicine, etc. Not only are WE not helping, we are throwing them out of hospitals.

My point is to care for the poor with what you have, I will care for them with what I have, we can both work harder to get our churches more involved, but let's not dwell on those who have lots and give little.

And it is not "fair" distribution of monies. If one of these rich folks who will be taxed enormously with this proposal has worked hard his whole life to acquire what he did, how is is fair if some receiving his funds have done nothing more than sit back and enjoy welfare their whole lives?

We already have medicaid for the poor, and not only the extremely poor. Why do we need another government run system? The poor already have access to free healthcare.

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ORIGINAL: tracydolls

Taxes pay for weapons of mass destruction, WAR, bailout banks, abortions, etc.

but let's not do what the Bible says and help the poor.

The bible says the church is to help the poor..

So we as Christians ARE NOT to help the poor?

The sad part is alot of people believe that. LOL.

Not that Christians should not help, but that they should. The church is who is to help, not sitting back waiting for the government to take care of it.

But either way, the dream of ending poverty for all will never be realized. You must take into account that no matter what is done there are always going to be some who simply will not take responsibility for their lives and will do nothing to help their own situation. I believe in helping those who cannot help themselves, but not constantly donating to ones who are just lazy and self-destructive, their biggest obstacle in life is themselves.

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ORIGINAL: jkdjr25

The problem is that medicaid needs to be fixed baddly. As I've said previously, my own doctor doesn't want me working because the stress of daily work like that would be enormously bad for my health. I have no assets to my name and I live with my family, who also don't have the means of helping me pay for health care. I get foodstamps to pay for my own food. Even with all of that I was denied Medicaid and had to appeal, an appeal that I still haven't gotten a ruling on by the way. The system needs to be fixed because right now it's set up so you get turned down.

The other point is that the while there are individual churches that do things to help on a food and clothing based level, there's not really that many that are willing to help with the costs of health care and the like. Yes the Church should help, but whether or not they actually do is another matter entirely, and it's responses like those from rc and some others that lead one to believe that the Church has become jaded, uncaring and selfish.

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ORIGINAL: Sophie11

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ORIGINAL: jkdjr25

The problem is that medicaid needs to be fixed baddly. As I've said previously, my own doctor doesn't want me working because the stress of daily work like that would be enormously bad for my health. I have no assets to my name and I live with my family, who also don't have the means of helping me pay for health care. I get foodstamps to pay for my own food. Even with all of that I was denied Medicaid and had to appeal, an appeal that I still haven't gotten a ruling on by the way. The system needs to be fixed because right now it's set up so you get turned down.

The other point is that the while there are individual churches that do things to help on a food and clothing based level, there's not really that many that are willing to help with the costs of health care and the like. Yes the Church should help, but whether or not they actually do is another matter entirely, and it's responses like those from rc and some others that lead one to believe that the Church has become jaded, uncaring and selfish.

Well first of all, it would be much much easier to fix medicaid instead of trying to implement an entirely new system run by the same. While there may be problems with medicaid, it does provide many, many people with health insurance.

My second point is that if one believes it is the Christian's and church's responsibility to help, why look to the government? We should all spend more effort doing our own part instead, and encouraging the churches to become more involved.

jkdjr25, if you don't mind my asking, what exactly is the medical issue or issues that you have?

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ORIGINAL: tracydolls


The bible says the church is to help the poor..

So we as Christians ARE NOT to help the poor?

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The sad part is alot of people believe that. LOL.

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ORIGINAL: jkdjr25

The other point is that the while there are individual churches that do things to help on a food and clothing based level, there's not really that many that are willing to help with the costs of health care and the like. Yes the Church should help, but whether or not they actually do is another matter entirely, and it's responses like those from rc and some others that lead one to believe that the Church has become jaded, uncaring and selfish.

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ORIGINAL: jkdjr25

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ORIGINAL: Sophie11

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ORIGINAL: jkdjr25

The problem is that medicaid needs to be fixed baddly. As I've said previously, my own doctor doesn't want me working because the stress of daily work like that would be enormously bad for my health. I have no assets to my name and I live with my family, who also don't have the means of helping me pay for health care. I get foodstamps to pay for my own food. Even with all of that I was denied Medicaid and had to appeal, an appeal that I still haven't gotten a ruling on by the way. The system needs to be fixed because right now it's set up so you get turned down.

The other point is that the while there are individual churches that do things to help on a food and clothing based level, there's not really that many that are willing to help with the costs of health care and the like. Yes the Church should help, but whether or not they actually do is another matter entirely, and it's responses like those from rc and some others that lead one to believe that the Church has become jaded, uncaring and selfish.

Well first of all, it would be much much easier to fix medicaid instead of trying to implement an entirely new system run by the same. While there may be problems with medicaid, it does provide many, many people with health insurance.

My second point is that if one believes it is the Christian's and church's responsibility to help, why look to the government? We should all spend more effort doing our own part instead, and encouraging the churches to become more involved.

jkdjr25, if you don't mind my asking, what exactly is the medical issue or issues that you have?

My point has always been that it would be easier to fix Medicaid and Medicare, or at least give people a way to opt into the health insurance that Congress gives themselves. Maybe throw people for a loop and do both.

The biggest medical issue that I have is my brain doesn't have an off switch. I can't let things go that anyone else would be able to because of a chemical imbalance. I get angry and stress out about things that a normal person would just let go of within a few minutes. The imbalance affects the asthma and anemia I have adversely, essentially whenever I get too stressed out I get horrendously sick with a really bad bronchial infection and be laid out for two weeks or better. Add in the near death from mystery anemia last year and my doctor said no more work of any kind. I can't help that and it's more than a little hurtful to hear professing Christians lambast me, and others, for things we can't help and actually debate whether or not we're even "worthy" of help.

I'm not saying that you do that but I do get that impression from some others.

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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

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ORIGINAL: jkdjr25

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ORIGINAL: Sophie11

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ORIGINAL: jkdjr25

The problem is that medicaid needs to be fixed baddly. As I've said previously, my own doctor doesn't want me working because the stress of daily work like that would be enormously bad for my health. I have no assets to my name and I live with my family, who also don't have the means of helping me pay for health care. I get foodstamps to pay for my own food. Even with all of that I was denied Medicaid and had to appeal, an appeal that I still haven't gotten a ruling on by the way. The system needs to be fixed because right now it's set up so you get turned down.

The other point is that the while there are individual churches that do things to help on a food and clothing based level, there's not really that many that are willing to help with the costs of health care and the like. Yes the Church should help, but whether or not they actually do is another matter entirely, and it's responses like those from rc and some others that lead one to believe that the Church has become jaded, uncaring and selfish.

Well first of all, it would be much much easier to fix medicaid instead of trying to implement an entirely new system run by the same. While there may be problems with medicaid, it does provide many, many people with health insurance.

My second point is that if one believes it is the Christian's and church's responsibility to help, why look to the government? We should all spend more effort doing our own part instead, and encouraging the churches to become more involved.

jkdjr25, if you don't mind my asking, what exactly is the medical issue or issues that you have?

My point has always been that it would be easier to fix Medicaid and Medicare, or at least give people a way to opt into the health insurance that Congress gives themselves. Maybe throw people for a loop and do both.

The biggest medical issue that I have is my brain doesn't have an off switch. I can't let things go that anyone else would be able to because of a chemical imbalance. I get angry and stress out about things that a normal person would just let go of within a few minutes. The imbalance affects the asthma and anemia I have adversely, essentially whenever I get too stressed out I get horrendously sick with a really bad bronchial infection and be laid out for two weeks or better. Add in the near death from mystery anemia last year and my doctor said no more work of any kind. I can't help that and it's more than a little hurtful to hear professing Christians lambast me, and others, for things we can't help and actually debate whether or not we're even "worthy" of help.

I'm not saying that you do that but I do get that impression from some others.

Sorry, but taking the stand that the government is not the best means to dealing with health care isn't lambasting anyone and saying someone isn't worthy of care...

John

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ORIGINAL: jkdjr25


Alright genius how are the poor supposed to pay for their health care?

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How about people who aren't able to work and for some idiotic reason can't get Medicaid or Medicare?

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Have you ever stopped to consider that God allowed, maybe even inspired, the creation of such programs because the Church was silent on the matter when they should have been actually helping beyond telling someone to just "get a job".

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You're pretty good at nay saying everything that's being said, but you don't actually have an idea for solving the problem.

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jkdjr25
Yes the Church should help, but whether or not they actually do is another matter entirely, and it's responses like those from rc and some others that lead one to believe that the Church has become jaded, uncaring and selfish.

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ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
I wish just once people wouldn't misrepresent what I'm saying. It gets rather iritating to consistently have to reiterate points that should be perfectly clear but here it goes again anyway.
1. I actually don't have any faith at all in the govt. I just think that the Medicaid and Medicare programs need to be fixed so that people who need the assistance can get it without the huge hassle that it is now.
2. As a matter of fact I do think that there are large segments of the Church who ARE jaded, selfish and uncaring to the plight of others. One can see it in the way that no one seems to want to help the poor be better able to pay for health care. No one's offering actual solutions to the problem beyond "well just get another job", or "you just don't trust God enough" both of which are strawman arguments and show an incredible lack of care about others and their situations. Many of the people who turn to these programs don't have another avenue to turn to. Again I ask you to show me the church that collects money to pay for health care in a poor, urban enviroment here in the states. I know that there are groups that send doctors overseas to help the poor in other countries but there seems to be precious little of it for people in the median age here in the States.
To reiterate, again since no one's being honest about my position, I don't necessarily think that govt. taking over health care is a good idea, but there should be some program or means by which the poor can gain help in paying for their health care. The constitution even says that people have an inalienable right to life, that would seem to indicate that health care is a right since it does help one live. So I ask, what's the solution? Many of you who are just nay saying everything offer no solutions of your own, which leads me to believe that you just don't care about the issue because you can actually afford health insurance or get it through your job. If this isn't the case then step up and let us know what your solution to the problem is or step aside and let the rest of us figure one out.

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ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22

Maybe he doesn't think they will be be fixed, but thinks they need to be fixed. :) They can be fixed, but it's doubtful and unlikely (imo).

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Spring 1991 - Minority Whip Newt Gingrich, in a private discussion about long-term Republican political strategy, predicts that the "next great offensive of the Left," as he puts it, will be "socializing health care." Gingrich declares the need for hardline Republicans to begin positioning themselves now to keep Democrats from winning in the future.

December 2, 1993 - Leading conservative operative William Kristol privately circulates a strategy document to Republicans in Congress. Kristol writes that congressional Republicans should work to "kill" -- not amend -- the Clinton plan because it presents a real danger to the Republican future: Its passage will give the Democrats a lock on the crucial middle-class vote and revive the reputation of the party. Nearly a full year before Republicans will unite behind the "Contract With America," Kristol has provided the rationale and the steel for them to achieve their aims of winning control of Congress and becoming America's majority party. Killing health care will serve both ends.

Late January 1994 - A critically influential -- and intensely controversial -- pair of articles appears on the Wall Street Journal's conservative editorial page and in the liberal New Republic. Written by an obscure staffer of the conservative Manhattan Institute, the fear-mongering articles paint a devastating account of the impact of the Clinton plan. The White House, and other independent experts, say the articles are filled with patent falsehoods and distortions. Notwithstanding the criticism, the articles become highly influential, especially in conservative circles. Newt Gingrich will later characterize them as "the first decisive breakpoint" in support for the Clinton plan.

September 19, 1994 - The New York Times reports remarks -- never subsequently denied -- that Bob Packwood made to his Republican senatorial colleagues during closed-door strategy sessions while he was managing the Republican attack during the summer. "We've killed health care reform," Packwood told his fellow Republican senators. "Now we've got to make sure our fingerprints are not on it." For many this is the "smoking gun": proof of a carefully plotted, and secret, Republican strategy.

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Late 1994 - As the Gingrich Revolution in Congress prepares to assume office, a Gallup poll shows that 72 percent of the public lists major health care reform as a top or high priority. Only crime and deficit reduction rank higher.

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the percentage of people covered by insurance through their jobs fell to 59.7% in 2006, from 60.2% a year earlier, making even those with insurance feel insecure. And health insurance premiums have risen 78% since 2001, four times the rate of wage increases.

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The mixed public-private health care system in the US is the most expensive in the world, with the US spending more on health care, both as a proportion of gross domestic product (GDP) and on a per capita basis, than any other nation.
The U.S. is the only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not have a universal health care system, according to the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences[

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Nearly 47 million Americans, about 16 percent of the population, lacked health insurance in 2006. The lack of universal coverage contributes to a flaw in the current U.S. health care system: on most dimensions of performance, it underperforms relative to other industrialized countries. In a 2007 comparison by the Commonwealth Fund of health care in the U.S. with that of Germany, Britain, Australia, New Zealand, and Canada, the U.S. ranked last on measures of quality, access, efficiency, equity, and outcomes.
For example, U.S. ranks 22nd in infant mortality, between Taiwan and Croatia, 46th in life expectancy, between Saint Helena and Cyprus, and 37th in health system performance, between Costa Rica and Slovenia

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ORIGINAL: backro