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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/18/2008 10:14:51 PM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 6265
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From: CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
Of course there are Christians who support abortion. I'm not one of them. I just figure they need some extra prayers.
They need salvation more than anything.
How do we know they aren't saved?
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/18/2008 10:17:02 PM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 416
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
Of course there are Christians who support abortion. I'm not one of them. I just figure they need some extra prayers.
They need salvation more than anything.
How do we know they aren't saved?
By their fruits.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/18/2008 10:24:40 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 552
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
Of course there are Christians who support abortion. I'm not one of them. I just figure they need some extra prayers.
They need salvation more than anything.
How do we know they aren't saved?
Because despite what some want to believe, a person who has true salvation, the salvation where our hearts of stone are replaced with hearts of flesh and where we repent of sin, cannot support abortion. Few who call themselves christian really are, think of the parable of the soils, only 1 in 4 grew anything acceptable to God. "You shall know them by there fruits" , do you think being pro-abortion is a good fruit?
< Message edited by HisFish -- 6/18/2008 10:34:15 PM >
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/18/2008 10:29:43 PM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 6265
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
Of course there are Christians who support abortion. I'm not one of them. I just figure they need some extra prayers.
They need salvation more than anything.
How do we know they aren't saved?
By their fruits.
Next month will make 17 years since I became pro-life. I never thought that I'd defend pro-aborts ever again.
Abortion is not a Salvation issue. As much as I'd like it to be, it's not. So I don't understand why we would post things to them in ways that would question whether or not they are truly Christians? Isn't that judging the heart of another? Isn't that God's job? What kind of fruit are we producing if we think we can do God's job better than He can?
I will pray that pro abortion people see the error of their ways, but I will not question their salvation.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/18/2008 10:31:09 PM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 6265
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
Of course there are Christians who support abortion. I'm not one of them. I just figure they need some extra prayers.
They need salvation more than anything.
How do we know they aren't saved?
Because despite what some want to believe, a person who has true salvation, the salvation where our hearts of stone are replaced with hearts of flesh and where we repent of sin, cannot support abortion. Few who call themselves christian really are, think of the parable of the soils, only 1 in 4 grew anything acceptable to God. "You shall know them by there fruits" , do you think being pro-abortion is a good fruit?
I think I covered this in post #205, please let me know if I didn't.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/18/2008 10:33:21 PM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 416
Joined: 6/12/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
Of course there are Christians who support abortion. I'm not one of them. I just figure they need some extra prayers.
They need salvation more than anything.
How do we know they aren't saved?
Because despite what some want to believe, a person who has true salvation, the salvation where our hearts of stone are replaced with hearts of flesh and where we repent of sin, cannot support abortion. Few who call themselves christian really are, think of the parable of the soils, only 1 in 4 grew anything acceptable to God.
You got it, Fish! As I'm constantly reminded as I read these threads, "wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction...narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Also, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord', shall enter the kingdom of heaven..." (Both passages from Matthew 7)
Get that, folks? "difficult is the way which leads to life..." It's hard, not easy. The honest-to-goodness Christian doesn't take the easy, convenient, selfish, quick-fix way.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/18/2008 10:46:59 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 552
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
Isn't that judging the heart of another?
"Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks". Watch what anyone does or says and you see what is in their hearts, again, you can know them by there fruits. How did we get to this point in our churches where we excuse anything that people do, no matter how vile, just because they have "Jesus" on their lips?. we were told there would be wolves among the sheep, tares among the wheat. Who said we cannot judge among the bretheren, because we can. It is those outside of the church we cannot judge.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/18/2008 10:57:24 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 552
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
You got it, Fish! As I'm constantly reminded as I read these threads, "wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction...narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Also, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord', shall enter the kingdom of heaven..." (Both passages from Matthew 7)
Get that, folks? "difficult is the way which leads to life..." It's hard, not easy. The honest-to-goodness Christian doesn't take the easy, convenient, selfish, quick-fix way.
Thank you peter_Gunn!. Stay off the super hi-way and follow that dirt path to Calvary amen.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/18/2008 11:00:13 PM
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Dona Nobis Pacem
Posts: 136
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From: FL
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I have 2 question and would like to hear from those who are OK with abortion or don't believe life begins at conception.
If God told Jeremiah
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I dedicated you, a prophet to the nations I appointed you."
then
Why do you think it's OK to take an unborn life ?
When does an acorn become an oak ?
Peace,
DNP
_____________________________
Pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy.
For the sake of His sorrowful Passion,
Have mercy on us, and on the whole world.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/19/2008 9:24:32 AM
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Kath
Posts: 16947
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This thread is not about whether or not those who think Abortion is acceptable is a Christian or not, so we need to abandon that line of discussion.
If you feel you need to discuss it please start another thread. Thank you.
Sincerely
Kath
Volunteer Assistant Administrator
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/19/2008 9:26:12 AM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 290
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: Ottawa
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quote:
Since there is no definite answer on when ensoulment takes place, wouldn't it be best to err on the side of caution?
Personally, I've answered this question before on this thread. The answer in my mind is yes. However, at the same time there seems to be a lack of certain Biblical teaching on the issue generally, which I think it is important to acknowledge. This is partly why, for example, I'm pretty sure it's not a salvation issue, as others have suggested.
quote:
I picture some folks standing at the gates of the death camp discussing an acceptable amount of people being baked to death... As you know there are always two sides and both sides have validity in their argument...
Despite all the mockery, I think you're missing the key point, which is that a lot of people who are in favour of abortion don't regard the unborn fetus as a child. This is the key behind the personhood debate that you find so pointless. If you can't convince them that it's a child, you're going to have a hard time convincing them that abortion is murder. I would love a solid Biblical statement supporting the argument but there doesn't seem to be one.
quote:
If God told Jeremiah
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I dedicated you, a prophet to the nations I appointed you."
then
Why do you think it's OK to take an unborn life ?
Well, on that question, I don't, but speaking Biblically, that verse doesn't actually say anything about life beginning at conception. Read it again - God is saying he knew Jeremiah before that. God is saying that he has foreknowledge of people and events to come. I don't think anyone here has denied that.
quote:
How is that irrelevant if the whole entire point is about death itself and that God is the only one to order death and not us. I am not saying that God did not establish different rules, I am saying that you cannot assume that God considers "a cursed woman's death child (which you are assuming) is not fully human because He allowed that child to die (even though scripture didn't say that) when we know God allowed man, woman and child to die, and we know they were human. The mere allowing of something to die, shows that they were once alive.
Well, in my opinion they may have been alive. But the law doesn't seem to reflect that. If a fetus were alive, one could not execute it for the sins of its mother, yet the Bible seems to make no allowances for the protection of the fetus in the event that its mother is punished - or in other laws executed, for that matter.
I regret where this element of the debate is going because I didn't really mean to start an argument in favour of abortion on it, I just meant to point out that the Israelite law seems not to go as far in protecting the fetus as we do.
quote:
In the scripture (if you read all of Numbers 5), the offering of jealousy was done if the guy thought his wife has defiled herself and the drinking of the curse was to determine whether or not she did defiled herself. The swelling of the belly and the rot of the thighs were supposed to be to her shame if she did defile herself. I cannot, as reading scripture, say that a child died because of this action, the scripture doesn't say if she was pregnant nor can I even see that it implies it. (If I am wrong, I beg you please show me what I am missing-because I would hate to interpret a scripture the incorrect way).
I have read Numbers 5 and I also invite correction, obviously.
The question in my mind is one of what would logically follow from what is described. You're absolutely correct that Scripture does not say outright that the fetus (if indeed the woman was pregnant) dies as a result of this judgement. However, given the described disfigurement of the woman's reproductive organs, a miscarriage (again, if she is pregnant) seems almost certain. And indeed the damage is so serious that afterward she shall not be able to conceive again.
There were some posts speculating about what the woman drank, around the #150 mark in this thread.
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quote:
In Numbers 5, we are never told if the cursed woman is pregnant (all we know is that her belly swells and her thigh's are rot) we are never told if she is pregnant (that caused her belly to swell and thighs to rot) or if this curse makes her barren. And for the woman who is not cursed the scripture said "But if the woman has not defiled herself, and is clean, then she shall be free and may conceive children (it is not told if at the time of the offering of jealousy if she is pregnant or not it simply states that she may conceive children-not that she did conceive a child).
Verse 28 actually implies precisely that she will not be able to bear children if she is guilty of committing adultery and thus fails the test: "If, however, the woman has not defiled herself, but is still pure, she will be immune and will still be able to bear children."
There is not a corresponding verse making clear that she will be infertile as a result of the judgement, but verse 27 does say that if she is guilty, "this bitter water that brings a curse will go into her, and her belly will swell and her thighs will waste away, so that she will become an example of imprecation among her people." The description, plus the Biblical description of her as an example to the people, both imply some sort of disfiguration of her reproductive organs such that she wouldn't be able to have children.
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This law is not meant to apply to every situation only a particular one. Numbers 5:12-15 gives the condition of which this law should be applied to:
“Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘If any man’s wife goes astray and behaves unfaithfully toward him, and a man lies with her carnally, and it is hidden from the eyes of her husband, and it is concealed that she has defiled herself, and there was no witness against her, nor was she caught— if the spirit of jealousy comes upon him and he becomes jealous of his wife, who has defiled herself; or if the spirit of jealousy comes upon him and he becomes jealous of his wife, although she has not defiled herself— then the man shall bring his wife to the priest. He shall bring the offering required for her, one-tenth of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil on it and put no frankincense on it, because it is a grain offering of jealousy, an offering for remembering, for bringing iniquity to remembrance..."
My apologies, I didn't write clearly. I meant to say that it applies to any situation which meets these conditions, not any situation where adultery is suspected and where the woman is not pregnant. Obviously I don't mean every situation because there are only some situations where people would be suspected of adultery anyways. By the nature of the situation, we would logically expect that at least some women who committed adultery would conceive.
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I have a question for you. Do you believe that we are to follow the Old Law? Because I want to understand why you assumed that "It's a law meant to apply to any situation."
Again my poor writing on that. I'm sorry - I kind of wish I had thought through that sentence more carefully.
Personally, I don't believe the old law is binding on us in the same way that it was binding on the Jews, so in that sense the answer is no. I do think, however, that it can still give us some insight into what a moral and upright life is in the eyes of God, as well as into just how demanding God's standard for uprightness really is.
In this case my argument is not that we should bring back the punishments described in the old law, but simply that the old law would be a very useful and decisive place to find a teaching solidly supporting our present opposition to abortion, and in fact that we do not find such a teaching there, and that teachings in that law appear almost to move in the other direction. For example, even beyond my general opposition to capital punishment, I would particularly oppose the execution of a woman who was pregnant, because I think it would be killing the child in punishment for the crimes of the mother. The OT law doesn't seem to make the same distinction I would in such a case.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/19/2008 10:46:59 AM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2370
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
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quote:
Despite all the mockery, I think you're missing the key point, which is that a lot of people who are in favour of abortion don't regard the unborn fetus as a child. This is the key behind the personhood debate that you find so pointless. If you can't convince them that it's a child, you're going to have a hard time convincing them that abortion is murder. I would love a solid Biblical statement supporting the argument but there doesn't seem to be one.
That's the big point. Not everyone in thinks that an embryo or fetus is a person, and I honestly think if it were murder and everyone thought that and believed that there would be less abortion at least. The problem is that people will always believe that life begins at different points-- conception, brain function, breathing or whatever the case may be. In order to get people to believe that from conception one is a person, you'll have to convince them of that at least slightly, and unfortunately, "because I think so" won't cut it for most people, if not all.
You can try to give a guilt trip or plead to their emotions-- even attack their Christianity because they happen to think differently than you about something the Bible doesn't address, but to them there is no person up until a certain milestone-- therefore no crime or sin in some instances. All the guilt trips and "are you a Christian's" won't work well if the basis for your belief is from your mind (or from the church, or what you've simply been taught that a Christian is supposed to believe). If someone thinks life begins at conception, I don't mind if they try to convince the world of that to get abortion abolished. They can try. I don't see that happening just because there will probably never be an agreement.
I think to see a dent in abortions you have to know what you say is truth and convince others of this truth. Unfortunately, no one knows the way God thinks about it, and every "side" thinks that their way is the way God thinks about it. Especially with Christians who are this way, it's very hard or impossible to try to tell the other they are wrong. It's hard to do when there's no basis to do so other than your own mindset about it or the church's/denomination's mindset. No guilt trip or attack on one's Christianity will work well when the other side thinks your the one who disagrees with God on the matter. I think the conception=life side is wrong by God (as opposed to my belief). My opinion is based on ensoulment though, not genetics.
People have to think there's a person there to feel guilty about it. Problem is that many do not think there is a person. If you're going to get to them, you need things other than opinion.
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For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/19/2008 12:59:32 PM
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Stronger2day
Posts: 106
Joined: 5/26/2008
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[/quote]
...and I honestly think if it were murder and everyone thought that and believed that there would be less abortion at least. [/quote]
I don't agree with this. I am willing to bet that most individuals know that homicide is wrong, rape is wrong, theft is wrong, but have those numbers reduced throughout the years? Using decisions of society as a litmus test is dangerous indeed.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/19/2008 1:10:58 PM
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tafkam
Posts: 2221
Joined: 9/23/2005
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quote:
...and I honestly think if it were murder and everyone thought that and believed that there would be less abortion at least.
Don't forget, for a long time we were also a society that considered it acceptable to own other human beings.
Just because we "think" a certain way doesn't make it right.
But to all the pro-death fokls, since by your own explanation, you can't be sure of when it is a life, then why not err on the side of caution? I don't see any of you doing that. Instead, you simply lobby that abortion must remain legal for any reason no matter what.
Spirituality aside, that doesn't even make logical sense....
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/19/2008 2:54:41 PM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 416
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
Christians aren't saying it's okay to murder children (some are IRL); some are saying that ensoulment and conception are not equivalent. The whole point is that it's not murder if there is life without personhood. Most of the discussion I've seen has been about that, not abortion. The problem with a lot of it is that people don't agree that abortion is murder, Christians and non-Christians alike. And it's hard to settle because of debates like this and lack of an answer. Person A thinks the embryo has a soul when they have a human genome, but person B doesn't think it has a soul until a certain point...up until that point there's no murder (to them); after that there is.
It's that whole "certain point" thing you seem to be reluctant to talk about. Even you state that "it's hard to settle." If you're all for abortion up until a "certain point", when is that point? And are you comfortable enough with your knowledge about that point, are you willing to run the vacume cleaner? Are you willing to give a difinitive answer?
Just because the Bible doesn't give us a particular time that "personhood" begins, doesn't allow us the right to make that judgement ourselves. There are dire consequences for the person that adds to or takes away from the Bible. It's not our book to tinker with.
Dearest Soprano,
You seem to be missing the questions asked of you. Let's try again and see if you have some answers.
*When does "ensoulment" begin?
*When does "personhood" begin?
*At what point in pregnancy is it okay to perform the abortion?
*If, as you say yourself, "it's hard to settle" when "ensoulment" begins, is it not best to err on the side of caution and avoid the abortion?
Please give an answer and explain why you believe what you believe.
Those of us that are anti-abortion, have given reasons for our beliefs. Among those of us on that side of the fence, I don't believe there have been any "I don't knows." However, there seems to be an awful lot of "I don't knows," on the other side of the fence.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/19/2008 2:57:09 PM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 416
Joined: 6/12/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
quote:
...and I honestly think if it were murder and everyone thought that and believed that there would be less abortion at least.
Don't forget, for a long time we were also a society that considered it acceptable to own other human beings.
Just because we "think" a certain way doesn't make it right.
But to all the pro-death fokls, since by your own explanation, you can't be sure of when it is a life, then why not err on the side of caution? I don't see any of you doing that. Instead, you simply lobby that abortion must remain legal for any reason no matter what.
Spirituality aside, that doesn't even make logical sense....
Good point! And I don't believe the Bible actually comdemns slavery either, does it? If it doesn't state something in black and white, that must make it okay. At least, that's the argument being made for abortion, isn't it?
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/19/2008 9:51:53 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4391
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
That's the big point. Not everyone in thinks that an embryo or fetus is a person, and I honestly think if it were murder and everyone thought that and believed that there would be less abortion at least. The problem is that people will always believe that life begins at different points-- conception, brain function, breathing or whatever the case may be. In order to get people to believe that from conception one is a person, you'll have to convince them of that at least slightly, and unfortunately, "because I think so" won't cut it for most people, if not all.
Some people on this forum take no isssue with abortion across the board... If it happens in the womb are part way out there is nothing wrong...
quote:
People have to think there's a person there to feel guilty about it. Problem is that many do not think there is a person. If you're going to get to them, you need things other than opinion.
People make excuses... They ignore the facts because there isn't a direct consequence for the action, some believe that God will simply understanstand and others go so far to say God doesn't take issue with it... God will not be mocked...
John
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/19/2008 10:23:30 PM
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Kath
Posts: 16947
Joined: 2/28/2005
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I repeat, this thread is not about the salvation of one who believes in one side or the other.
TOS 6 states in part:
- Attacking the character or motives of someone who differs with your view or denying that he or she is a Christian is unacceptable.
TOS 9 You will not disrupt the normal flow of dialog in the community or act in a manner that negatively affects other members, including and perhaps especially in the defense of Christianity, in offering unwelcome spiritual counsel, or in debating doctrinal issues.
Sincerely
Kath
Volunteer Assistant Administrator
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message as I am unable to discuss it further.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns allowing time for a response during normal business hours.
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Please review our FAQ for an explanation as to why one cannot confront a moderator directly.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/19/2008 10:23:47 PM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 290
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: Ottawa
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quote:
Good point! And I don't believe the Bible actually comdemns slavery either, does it? If it doesn't state something in black and white, that must make it okay. At least, that's the argument being made for abortion, isn't it?
I could make a Biblical argument against slavery, though I admit that it would be stretching slightly.
I don't think that the lack of a clear teaching automatically makes something moral, but I do think it impacts on how solid the Christian position can be.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/19/2008 11:31:39 PM
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endless_night
Posts: 71
Joined: 6/17/2008
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ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
ORIGINAL: endless_night
quote:
How is that irrelevant if the whole entire point is about death itself and that God is the only one to order death and not us. I am not saying that God did not establish different rules, I am saying that you cannot assume that God considers "a cursed woman's death child (which you are assuming) is not fully human because He allowed that child to die (even though scripture didn't say that) when we know God allowed man, woman and child to die, and we know they were human. The mere allowing of something to die, shows that they were once alive.
quote:
Well, in my opinion they may have been alive. But the law doesn't seem to reflect that. If a fetus were alive, one could not execute it for the sins of its mother, yet the Bible seems to make no allowances for the protection of the fetus in the event that its mother is punished - or in other laws executed, for that matter.
I understand what you are saying. But the death of a child or loved one is usually one of the punishments for those who disobeyed God in the Old Testament. Look at when God destroyed a whole entire nation because of the disobedience. In 1 Samuel 11 and 12, God allowed the child, that was conceived from David and Bathsheba, to die because of David's sin (yes, I know the child was born). I honestly think what you mean to say is that sins of the parents is not reflected of the child in God's eyes. Unfortunately for the child in the Old Testament, death isn't viewed the same way to God as to us humans, so maybe killing the child was a punishment for the parents, but it wasn't a punishment to the child (if that makes sense).
quote:
I regret where this element of the debate is going because I didn't really mean to start an argument in favour of abortion on it, I just meant to point out that the Israelite law seems not to go as far in protecting the fetus as we do.
Oh, now I understand. It just sounded like you were in favor of it, sorry, my mistake.
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In the scripture (if you read all of Numbers 5), the offering of jealousy was done if the guy thought his wife has defiled herself and the drinking of the curse was to determine whether or not she did defiled herself. The swelling of the belly and the rot of the thighs were supposed to be to her shame if she did defile herself. I cannot, as reading scripture, say that a child died because of this action, the scripture doesn't say if she was pregnant nor can I even see that it implies it. (If I am wrong, I beg you please show me what I am missing-because I would hate to interpret a scripture the incorrect way).
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I have read Numbers 5 and I also invite correction, obviously.
The question in my mind is one of what would logically follow from what is described. You're absolutely correct that Scripture does not say outright that the fetus (if indeed the woman was pregnant) dies as a result of this judgement. However, given the described disfigurement of the woman's reproductive organs, a miscarriage (again, if she is pregnant) seems almost certain. And indeed the damage is so serious that afterward she shall not be able to conceive again.
There were some posts speculating about what the woman drank, around the #150 mark in this thread.
I think the reason why we are having such a hard time understanding this scripture is because we have placed this scripture in the context of abortion. If we read the scripture straight out (and put it in it's right context), we would just think that the cheating wife would have a swollen belly, rot thighs, mark of shame and a lost of child or become barren. But because some people are looking to justify abortion (and I understand that you are not) they have twisted this scripture.
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In Numbers 5, we are never told if the cursed woman is pregnant (all we know is that her belly swells and her thigh's are rot) we are never told if she is pregnant (that caused her belly to swell and thighs to rot) or if this curse makes her barren. And for the woman who is not cursed the scripture said "But if the woman has not defiled herself, and is clean, then she shall be free and may conceive children (it is not told if at the time of the offering of jealousy if she is pregnant or not it simply states that she may conceive children-not that she did conceive a child).
Verse 28 actually implies precisely that she will not be able to bear children if she is guilty of committing adultery and thus fails the test: "If, however, the woman has not defiled herself, but is still pure, she will be immune and will still be able to bear children."
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There is not a corresponding verse making clear that she will be infertile as a result of the judgement, but verse 27 does say that if she is guilty, "this bitter water that brings a curse will go into her, and her belly will swell and her thighs will waste away, so that she will become an example of imprecation among her people." The description, plus the Biblical description of her as an example to the people, both imply some sort of disfiguration of her reproductive organs such that she wouldn't be able to have children.
I wonder, what is the cause of the swelling belly. Maybe it is not just the reproductive organs that are involved? I don't know, I'm just wondering.
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In this case my argument is not that we should bring back the punishments described in the old law, but simply that the old law would be a very useful and decisive place to find a teaching solidly supporting our present opposition to abortion, and in fact that we do not find such a teaching there, and that teachings in that law appear almost to move in the other direction. For example, even beyond my general opposition to capital punishment, I would particularly oppose the execution of a woman who was pregnant, because I think it would be killing the child in punishment for the crimes of the mother. The OT law doesn't seem to make the same distinction I would in such a case.
God's view is already there. And our views on abortion has to begin with teaching people about God and how He views life. I believe that the only time God's view is not noticeable, is when we want something to justify whatever views we have. Honestly, I believe abortion is murder, but that is not why I support pro-life, I support it because I feel that abortion goes against the will of God and it does not glorify Him.
< Message edited by endless_night -- 6/19/2008 11:39:08 PM >
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The Fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do His commandments. His praises endures forever.
Psalms 111:10
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/20/2008 7:28:23 AM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 416
Joined: 6/12/2008
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
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Good point! And I don't believe the Bible actually comdemns slavery either, does it? If it doesn't state something in black and white, that must make it okay. At least, that's the argument being made for abortion, isn't it?
I could make a Biblical argument against slavery, though I admit that it would be stretching slightly.
I don't think that the lack of a clear teaching automatically makes something moral, but I do think it impacts on how solid the Christian position can be.
You're right. The Bible doesn't have to state every situation possible, right there in black and white. It's all pretty much summed up in the commandments that Jesus reiterated: Love the Lord your God..., and love your neighbor as yourself. Of course, He explained that our neighbor is any other person, and I believe that would include babies and slaves. In loving yourself, you protect your own life, look out for your best interest, make sure you have what you need, etc.
Point is, every particular situation doesn't have to be addressed in the Bible for us to understand how God views it.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/20/2008 10:45:31 AM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2370
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
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ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
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Good point! And I don't believe the Bible actually comdemns slavery either, does it? If it doesn't state something in black and white, that must make it okay. At least, that's the argument being made for abortion, isn't it?
I could make a Biblical argument against slavery, though I admit that it would be stretching slightly.
I don't think that the lack of a clear teaching automatically makes something moral, but I do think it impacts on how solid the Christian position can be.
You're right. The Bible doesn't have to state every situation possible, right there in black and white. It's all pretty much summed up in the commandments that Jesus reiterated: Love the Lord your God..., and love your neighbor as yourself. Of course, He explained that our neighbor is any other person, and I believe that would include babies and slaves. In loving yourself, you protect your own life, look out for your best interest, make sure you have what you need, etc.
Point is, every particular situation doesn't have to be addressed in the Bible for us to understand how God views it.
On this issue however, there is no one understanding in Christianity...not even among the Church. And usually the way a particular church or person believes IS how they think that God truly and honestly views it, and they do understand why their view is the one that is true. The person who believes that ensoulment occurs at the point of brain fuction probably believes that is God's truth just as much as you believe that ensoulment begins when we get the components for all the human body parts and growth occurring. They believe in the same God and the same Bible, yet don't believe that God thinks the way you do on the matter. You (or anyone else) may THINK you understand how God views it; so do many others, yet you don't all believe the same thing. Everyone thinks they understand it the way God thinks about it; that's a big part of the problem.
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For God, For Learning, Forever.
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