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ORIGINAL: fiat_lux

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That is a supposition on your part. The purpose of the OT laws were not to devalue life but to show the futility in living a life by the law without infraction. Punishments were determined by God for His reasons. By your reasoning, an adulteress was not equivalent to a full human being. Remember: they were stoned to death.

Perhaps my point was missed. The fetus in question, if indeed it were a full human being, would not have committed a crime worthy of death - its mother would have. And the law does state that we should not put a child to death for his parent's sin.

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Please, consider the argument. To say that the life of the fetus was not equivalent is saying you know exactly why God did what He did. He did not right us a book of reasons for His behavior in all things. Why did He have all the people of certain nations killed? Were they less human than others? God is not bound by our thoughts of logic and "fairness".

I don't know these things any more than you do. I am attempting to draw conclusions based on what I read.

Note, for example, that I say it seems to suggest what I have concluded. I do not have certainty on this issue, beyond stating that there is no obvious statement in the law to the effect that all unborn fetuses are treated as human, and indeed that there are statements in the law seeming to imply that at least some unborn fetuses are not treated as fully human.

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ORIGINAL: tafkam

I realize I'm treading on thin ice here by saying this, but I honestly have to wonder about any Christian who defends abortion, and we have seen it defended on these boards in a manner that is almost rabid.

We know the character of God, that He is a God of love, forgiveness, grace....and He is the creator of all things. God makes it very clear that He places value on us BEFORE we were formed. Yet we have people saying they can picture God standing over the remains of an aborted baby and telling the "mother" in question "Well done".

If what is done in abortions were done to a whale or a dog, people would be crying for the head of the perpetrator, yet our society cheers and applauds the women who choose to put their children to death, and the doctors who actually commit the murder.

We have a lady in our church who, before she was saved, was an abortion clinic director here in Atlanta. I've had many conversations with her and she assured me that the doctors in these clinics KNOW that it is a baby. They KNOW it is a LIFE. And they KNOW that they are committing MURDER when they perform an abortion. She told me horror stories of babies surviving the abortion process, to either be murdered outside the womb or left to die from exposure on a table somewhere. I could not beleive she was talking about acts carried out by people in a supposedly "civilized" society.

I've seen programs on the issue where pro-death proponents try to discourage the showing of pictures of aborted babies. What are they so afraid of? If it is legal, and if it is safe, and if it is truly not a human being, then why shouldn't people be allowed to view the final result if they so wish? Because, as the video posted made crystal clear, the pictures demonstrate that it is a LIFE.

The legalization of this horror is our Supreme Court's handiwork. The public should be able to look at that handiwork. But no, the pro-death crowd wants it hidden. Why? Because it can't take the light of scrutiny.

Apologies to the mods if this steps over a line. But I had to say it. Delete it if you have to.....

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That is my point. You keep saying the law "seems to imply" a judgment on the status of the fetus' personhood. That is not true. The law makes a statement without a discourse on reasons for the decision. Just because you think it implies something does not make it so. KWIM?

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Those that support the murder of innocents will never acknowledge the truth until they bow the knee to the Creator and acknowledge Him. To admit that abortion is murder is to admit that there is One greater than ourselves and He establishes the standard.

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That's the point. Whatever opinion you have, you have to look for "clues"; there isn't a direct answer. But aside from that, I notice that many verses/passages used don't really talk about personhood at all to begin with.

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That's true. They talk about people.

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ORIGINAL: relady

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The fact that you can't see/agree with the alternative view is, of course, your right but that doesn't [by definition] mean the other views aren't there.

Nor does it negate those opposing views or mean that those who hold them aren't "real" Christians.

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ORIGINAL: tafkam

I realize I'm treading on thin ice here by saying this, but I honestly have to wonder about any Christian who defends abortion, and we have seen it defended on these boards in a manner that is almost rabid.

We know the character of God, that He is a God of love, forgiveness, grace....and He is the creator of all things. God makes it very clear that He places value on us BEFORE we were formed. Yet we have people saying they can picture God standing over the remains of an aborted baby and telling the "mother" in question "Well done".

If what is done in abortions were done to a whale or a dog, people would be crying for the head of the perpetrator, yet our society cheers and applauds the women who choose to put their children to death, and the doctors who actually commit the murder.

We have a lady in our church who, before she was saved, was an abortion clinic director here in Atlanta. I've had many conversations with her and she assured me that the doctors in these clinics KNOW that it is a baby. They KNOW it is a LIFE. And they KNOW that they are committing MURDER when they perform an abortion. She told me horror stories of babies surviving the abortion process, to either be murdered outside the womb or left to die from exposure on a table somewhere. I could not beleive she was talking about acts carried out by people in a supposedly "civilized" society.

I've seen programs on the issue where pro-death proponents try to discourage the showing of pictures of aborted babies. What are they so afraid of? If it is legal, and if it is safe, and if it is truly not a human being, then why shouldn't people be allowed to view the final result if they so wish? Because, as the video posted made crystal clear, the pictures demonstrate that it is a LIFE.

The legalization of this horror is our Supreme Court's handiwork. The public should be able to look at that handiwork. But no, the pro-death crowd wants it hidden. Why? Because it can't take the light of scrutiny.

Apologies to the mods if this steps over a line. But I had to say it. Delete it if you have to.....

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ORIGINAL: Stronger2day

Just a quick question to those arguing that abortion is acceptable at some or any point and also who 'feel' there isn't direct Biblical guidance: have you prayed about this? Were you guided or are you strictly basing on your interpretation?

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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

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ORIGINAL: Stronger2day

Just a quick question to those arguing that abortion is acceptable at some or any point and also who 'feel' there isn't direct Biblical guidance: have you prayed about this? Were you guided or are you strictly basing on your interpretation?

The only thing worse than the twisting of scripture to support abortion is the lies that people will tell in regards to what God has told them about it...

John

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ORIGINAL: JustJeannie

I have been reading this thread, and just now decided to post. Until recently, I said that I didn't know if I would be able to have an abortion until I was put in that situation, because of reasons stated here that claim an abortion is okay (rape, etc.). This past fall a 12 year old girl in my daughter's class was raped and became with child from it. Her parents are Christians and helped her through the emotional trauma, planning to raise the child as her sibling. I think God knows what we can or can't handle emotionally, because this child with child had a miscarriage. She was upset with that, because she finally had accepted her life as it was, but God knew that she was not emotionally ready. After my daughter told me this story, I had a dream that I was raped (strange, I know), and I knew when I woke up that I could NEVER have an abortion. If I am not physically or emotionally ready to have a child, no matter what the circumstances leading to the pregnancy, God will take that child to be with Him. It IS NOT my place to make that decision.

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ORIGINAL: Stronger2day

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ORIGINAL: JustJeannie

I have been reading this thread, and just now decided to post. Until recently, I said that I didn't know if I would be able to have an abortion until I was put in that situation, because of reasons stated here that claim an abortion is okay (rape, etc.). This past fall a 12 year old girl in my daughter's class was raped and became with child from it. Her parents are Christians and helped her through the emotional trauma, planning to raise the child as her sibling. I think God knows what we can or can't handle emotionally, because this child with child had a miscarriage. She was upset with that, because she finally had accepted her life as it was, but God knew that she was not emotionally ready. After my daughter told me this story, I had a dream that I was raped (strange, I know), and I knew when I woke up that I could NEVER have an abortion. If I am not physically or emotionally ready to have a child, no matter what the circumstances leading to the pregnancy, God will take that child to be with Him. It IS NOT my place to make that decision.

That is an incredible story. It would have been so easy for the parents to run through a list of rationalizations of why it was OK to terminate the baby's life, and they took the narrow road. Women who undergo a horrible experience like rape, and choose to not continue the cycle of sin by abstaining from abortion, are amazing. Praise our Father for these examples.

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ORIGINAL: Stronger2day

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ORIGINAL: JustJeannie

I have been reading this thread, and just now decided to post. Until recently, I said that I didn't know if I would be able to have an abortion until I was put in that situation, because of reasons stated here that claim an abortion is okay (rape, etc.). This past fall a 12 year old girl in my daughter's class was raped and became with child from it. Her parents are Christians and helped her through the emotional trauma, planning to raise the child as her sibling. I think God knows what we can or can't handle emotionally, because this child with child had a miscarriage. She was upset with that, because she finally had accepted her life as it was, but God knew that she was not emotionally ready. After my daughter told me this story, I had a dream that I was raped (strange, I know), and I knew when I woke up that I could NEVER have an abortion. If I am not physically or emotionally ready to have a child, no matter what the circumstances leading to the pregnancy, God will take that child to be with Him. It IS NOT my place to make that decision.

That is an incredible story. It would have been so easy for the parents to run through a list of rationalizations of why it was OK to terminate the baby's life, and they took the narrow road. Women who undergo a horrible experience like rape, and choose to not continue the cycle of sin by abstaining from abortion, are amazing. Praise our Father for these examples.

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ORIGINAL: fiat_lux

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Who gave the directives in Leviticus, Numbers, etc.? Who were offerings made to? Who made the judgments? It is not how I see it. It is what the bible says. I agree that the child is being killed, but, if the woman was pregnant by her spouse, do you see where the child still would die? I see the exact opposite.

So we draw the line at killing unborn children conceived via adultery?

Sorry, that question is facetious. However, if the ritual in question is willing to cause the death of a fetus conceived through adultery, then the fact it is there would seem to suggest that the Old Testament law did not in fact view the unborn fetus as equivalent to a full human being, at least in some stages of the pregnancy.

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If you can have Christians that believe it's ok to murder children you should be able to have Christians that rape children as well... Pedophiles for Christ... Nice ring to it... I am sure God is pleased...

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Throughout the Old Testament, God (the most important part) has guided the Israelites to destroy other nations killing men, women and child so therefore to assume that God does not view unborn fetus as equivalent to a full human being (because you believe a child dies because of the curse woman's sin) by this scripture (that you assumed suggested this) is totally twisting scripture.

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In Numbers 5, we are never told if the cursed woman is pregnant (all we know is that her belly swells and her thigh's are rot) we are never told if she is pregnant (that caused her belly to swell and thighs to rot) or if this curse makes her barren. And for the woman who is not cursed the scripture said "But if the woman has not defiled herself, and is clean, then she shall be free and may conceive children (it is not told if at the time of the offering of jealousy if she is pregnant or not it simply states that she may conceive children-not that she did conceive a child).

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And at any point, if you do feel that this is what scripture is saying (your post above) remember that it was God who established it, it was God..... And that will always be the difference.

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ORIGINAL: fiat_lux

I search in vain for someone in this thread who has said it's okay to murder children.

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In any event Deuteronomy 22 says taking someone by force is a sin worthy of death, so I'm not sure why you think this is a fair comparison.

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ORIGINAL: fiat_lux

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If you can have Christians that believe it's ok to murder children you should be able to have Christians that rape children as well... Pedophiles for Christ... Nice ring to it... I am sure God is pleased...

I search in vain for someone in this thread who has said it's okay to murder children. In any event Deuteronomy 22 says taking someone by force is a sin worthy of death, so I'm not sure why you think this is a fair comparison.

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ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22

Christians aren't saying it's okay to murder children (some are IRL); some are saying that ensoulment and conception are not equivalent. The whole point is that it's not murder if there is life without personhood. Most of the discussion I've seen has been about that, not abortion. The problem with a lot of it is that people don't agree that abortion is murder, Christians and non-Christians alike. And it's hard to settle because of debates like this and lack of an answer. Person A thinks the embryo has a soul when they have a human genome, but person B doesn't think it has a soul until a certain point...up until that point there's no murder (to them); after that there is.

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Throughout the Old Testament, God (the most important part) has guided the Israelites to destroy other nations killing men, women and child so therefore to assume that God does not view unborn fetus as equivalent to a full human being (because you believe a child dies because of the curse woman's sin) by this scripture (that you assumed suggested this) is totally twisting scripture.

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Also irrelevant. God established different rules - rules of war, if you will - to deal with Israel's relations with its enemies. I'm going by the OT law on how Israelites will relate to one another. Under these rules various forms of taking life were permitted that would not apply within Israel itself.

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And in those OT laws, the death of the fetus does not seem to be equivalent to murder, which would be the deliberate taking of a life of a full human being. Only one circumstance involving the violent death of a fetus is singled out for punishment, by my count, and this doesn't really seem equivalent to a case of murder, given that the punishment is a fine determined by the father, not automatic execution for murder. It is not at all my intent to twist Scripture but to understand it.

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In Numbers 5, we are never told if the cursed woman is pregnant (all we know is that her belly swells and her thigh's are rot) we are never told if she is pregnant (that caused her belly to swell and thighs to rot) or if this curse makes her barren. And for the woman who is not cursed the scripture said "But if the woman has not defiled herself, and is clean, then she shall be free and may conceive children (it is not told if at the time of the offering of jealousy if she is pregnant or not it simply states that she may conceive children-not that she did conceive a child).

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It's a law meant to apply to any situation. At the very least, given the description, it seems more than likely that if the woman in question was pregnant and did commit adultery, she would indeed have a miscarriage.

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And at any point, if you do feel that this is what scripture is saying (your post above) remember that it was God who established it, it was God..... And that will always be the difference.

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The difference between what? I'm trying to understand Scripture and apply it to moral problems of today. I haven't in any way challenged God's inspiration of those Scriptures.

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ORIGINAL: DenimDiva

Since there is no definite answer on when ensoulment takes place, wouldn't it be best to err on the side of caution?

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The whole point is that it's not murder if there is life without personhood.

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ORIGINAL: DenimDiva

Of course there are Christians who support abortion. I'm not one of them. I just figure they need some extra prayers.