Death Reigned From Adam

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wintery -> Death Reigned From Adam (6/13/2008 3:59:32 PM)
First, if there is some other place for the question, forgive my blundering in here. Here's the verses: Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned: - for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come. (Romans 5:12-14) I really would like to know how there can be millions of years of death (as taught in macro evolution) before man if sin and death didn't enter the world until Adam. All I can guess is that (a) the Bible is wrong (b) the Bible doesn't mean what it says (c) millions of years of dying yet mutating species didn't happen I make no pretense of my disbelief of evolution; for one thing the lack of evidence in the millions of intermediate species that have never existed. I come across Christians sometimes who say they back the Bible and evolution and I really wonder what the verses mean to them, if anything. Thanks.

Method -> RE: Death Reigned From Adam (6/13/2008 4:14:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wintery (a) the Bible is wrong (b) the Bible doesn't mean what it says (c) millions of years of dying yet mutating species didn't happen (d) Paul was using Adam as a metaphor. quote: I make no pretense of my disbelief of evolution; for one thing the lack of evidence in the millions of intermediate species that have never existed. What about the transitionals that did exist and can now be found in museums?

swan42 -> RE: Death Reigned From Adam (6/13/2008 4:19:29 PM)
quote: for one thing the lack of evidence in the millions of intermediate species that have never existed. Lack of evidence is not the same as contra-evidence. All species are intermediate to something. Look harder.

gluadys -> RE: Death Reigned From Adam (6/13/2008 4:35:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wintery First, if there is some other place for the question, forgive my blundering in here. Here's the verses: Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned: - for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come. (Romans 5:12-14) I really would like to know how there can be millions of years of death (as taught in macro evolution) before man if sin and death didn't enter the world until Adam. All I can guess is that (a) the Bible is wrong (b) the Bible doesn't mean what it says (c) millions of years of dying yet mutating species didn't happen I make no pretense of my disbelief of evolution; for one thing the lack of evidence in the millions of intermediate species that have never existed. I come across Christians sometimes who say they back the Bible and evolution and I really wonder what the verses mean to them, if anything. Thanks. Where does the bible say that death did not affect non-human life prior to Adam's sin? Paul specifically says in Romans that the death Adam brought into the world spread "to all men". He doesn't say that it spread to lions or butterflies or oak trees. Furthermore, death spread to other humans "because all had sinned". Since non-humans do not sin, if other species were immortal prior to Adam's sin, they would still be immortal today, for the death Adam brought into the world has power only over those who sin.

everstudy -> RE: Death Reigned From Adam (6/13/2008 6:24:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wintery I really would like to know how there can be millions of years of death (as taught in macro evolution) before man if sin and death didn't enter the world until Adam. That depends on if Paul was referring to physical death or spiritual death. If he was referring to spiritual death, as I believe he was, there is no problem saying that death existed before the fall. Many people assume that physical death is/was a bad thing. The physical death of animal and plant life from eons past have a direct benefit to mankind today (fossil fuels). And pre-fall, we don't know what God meant for death to be like. We only have post-fall death to look at. ~Everstudy

wintery -> RE: Death Reigned From Adam (6/14/2008 2:09:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Method quote: ORIGINAL: wintery (a) the Bible is wrong (b) the Bible doesn't mean what it says (c) millions of years of dying yet mutating species didn't happen (d) Paul was using Adam as a metaphor. Thanks for your response. I see death as a result of sin, which didn't begin until Adam. quote: ORIGINAL: Method quote: I make no pretense of my disbelief of evolution; for one thing the lack of evidence in the millions of intermediate species that have never existed. What about the transitionals that did exist and can now be found in museums? I've read about a couple, but there would be millions of fish becoming lizards becoming mammals but completed creatures seem to be all anyone finds, even if it's a snake with feathers or whatever. Of course there are those creatures damaged by the deteriorating effects of sin. Considering the records of Piltdown man (ape skull), Nebraska man (pig's tooth), Java man (ape skull + pig's tooth) I don't get my hopes up very high. Oh, and Peking man just plain disappeared.

wintery -> RE: Death Reigned From Adam (6/14/2008 3:05:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: swan42 quote: for one thing the lack of evidence in the millions of intermediate species that have never existed. Lack of evidence is not the same as contra-evidence. All species are intermediate to something. Look harder. Unless one species is giving birth to another, we would hardly have to look for millions of transitional species.

gluadys -> RE: Death Reigned From Adam (6/14/2008 3:12:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wintery quote: ORIGINAL: Method quote: ORIGINAL: wintery (a) the Bible is wrong (b) the Bible doesn't mean what it says (c) millions of years of dying yet mutating species didn't happen (d) Paul was using Adam as a metaphor. Thanks for your response. I see death as a result of sin, which didn't begin until Adam. Sin couldn't begin until Adam because non-human creatures don't sin. But what biblical support do you have for connecting the death of non-human, non-sinning creatures to sin? quote: ORIGINAL: Method quote: I make no pretense of my disbelief of evolution; for one thing the lack of evidence in the millions of intermediate species that have never existed. What about the transitionals that did exist and can now be found in museums? I've read about a couple, but there would be millions of fish becoming lizards becoming mammals but completed creatures seem to be all anyone finds, even if it's a snake with feathers or whatever. Of course there are those creatures damaged by the deteriorating effects of sin. Considering the records of Piltdown man (ape skull), Nebraska man (pig's tooth), Java man (ape skull + pig's tooth) I don't get my hopes up very high. Oh, and Peking man just plain disappeared. If this is the extent of your information about intermediate species, it is sadly out of date and incomplete. Two are not even intermediate species. Piltdown man was a deliberate hoax and Nebraska Man was a journalist's headline. Yes, the original Peking Man fossils were lost, but the casts and pictures were preserved with all the attendant scientific reports. Furthermore, those were only the original finds in the 1930s that were lost. Additional work has been ongoing in the same area and has uncovered additional fossils. Of course completed creatures are what you find. Why would an intermediate species be an incomplete species? Every intermediate species is a complete functioning animal. If it were not, it could not have descendants. How about some comments on more recent finds of intermediate species such as Pakicetus, Tiktaalik, Sinosauropteryx, Turkana Boy and Tautavel Man?

gluadys -> RE: Death Reigned From Adam (6/14/2008 3:16:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wintery quote: ORIGINAL: swan42 quote: for one thing the lack of evidence in the millions of intermediate species that have never existed. Lack of evidence is not the same as contra-evidence. All species are intermediate to something. Look harder. Unless one species is giving birth to another, we would hardly have to look for millions of transitional species. Most of the time, evolution doesn't work by one species giving birth to another. Parent and child are almost always the same species, yet the species evolves. Evolution is by-and-large a change in a population that does not require a point-transition from one species to another in a single generation.

wintery -> RE: Death Reigned From Adam (6/14/2008 3:21:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gluadys quote: ORIGINAL: wintery First, if there is some other place for the question, forgive my blundering in here. Here's the verses: Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned: - for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come. (Romans 5:12-14) I really would like to know how there can be millions of years of death (as taught in macro evolution) before man if sin and death didn't enter the world until Adam. All I can guess is that (a) the Bible is wrong (b) the Bible doesn't mean what it says (c) millions of years of dying yet mutating species didn't happen I make no pretense of my disbelief of evolution; for one thing the lack of evidence in the millions of intermediate species that have never existed. I come across Christians sometimes who say they back the Bible and evolution and I really wonder what the verses mean to them, if anything. Thanks. Where does the bible say that death did not affect non-human life prior to Adam's sin? Paul specifically says in Romans that the death Adam brought into the world spread "to all men". He doesn't say that it spread to lions or butterflies or oak trees. Furthermore, death spread to other humans "because all had sinned". Since non-humans do not sin, if other species were immortal prior to Adam's sin, they would still be immortal today, for the death Adam brought into the world has power only over those who sin. Thank you for the response. If other species were immortal before sin, what would be the limits of the growth of a lizard? Adam as the top of the created order brought the consequences on all. "For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies." (Romans 8:22-23)(ESV) Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death. (James 1:15)(ESV) And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. (Genesis 1:31)(ESV) It was made and it was very good, not dying or deformed, or in process. It still seems to me that evolution requires death and that death began with the entrance of sin.

gluadys -> RE: Death Reigned From Adam (6/14/2008 3:50:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wintery Thank you for the response. If other species were immortal before sin, what would be the limits of the growth of a lizard? You are the one claiming they were immortal before sin. In fact, that is a good question to pose. How could animals who are living, eating, breathing and reproducing, in accordance with the command "be fruitful and multiply" possibly do this without death? For that matter, if they were immortal, why were they eating? Why were humans eating before sin? How could they eat without inflicting death on what they were eating? quote: "For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies." (Romans 8:22-23)(ESV) I note that Paul is using the image of labour pains. This sounds hopeful, not like the groaning of something suffering from sin. In fact, the verse ends speaking of those who have been redeemed from sin also groaning inwardly. We have a promise here of something wonderful in the process of being born. I don't see any application to the mortality or immortality of animals before the fall. quote: It was made and it was very good, not dying or deformed, or in process. The groaning of a person (or of all creation) in the labour of giving birth does not suggest to me either dying or deformity. quote: It still seems to me that evolution requires death and that death began with the entrance of sin. For humanity, yes. But nothing I know of in scripture says that animals are sinful or that death spread to plants and animals because they sinned. If death comes about through sin, then it has no power over the sinless non-human creatures.

unclemonkey -> RE: Death Reigned From Adam (6/14/2008 3:52:05 PM)
ORIGINAL:everstudy quote: That depends on if Paul was referring to physical death or spiritual death. If he was referring to spiritual death, as I believe he was, there is no problem saying that death existed before the fall. Do you have a problem with carnivorous animals before the fall?

wintery -> RE: Death Reigned From Adam (6/14/2008 4:40:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gluadys If this is the extent of your information about intermediate species, it is sadly out of date and incomplete. Two are not even intermediate species. Piltdown man was a deliberate hoax and Nebraska Man was a journalist's headline. Hence, my reflection on the records. They weren't touted as hoaxes or mistakes, they were proven to be. quote: ORIGINAL: gluadys How about some comments on more recent finds of intermediate species such as Pakicetus, Tiktaalik, Sinosauropteryx, Turkana Boy and Tautavel Man? Pakicetus?? Surely you know what I will say. A whale/land transitional from 1981 to 2001 until further bones found made it a land animal? It had a transition in definition but not from one species to the other. Tiktaalik is a fish that makes me think of the alligator gar in the Tennessee River. If you really want my uneducated opinion it's a stretch to think the small bones in its "flippers" look organized enough to be on their way to being tetrapod feet. Sinosauropteryx may have been Alley Oops' Thanksgiving turkey, but a feathered lizard, why not? That doesn't show me anything transitional unless I just want to believe it was trying to become a bird. I read somewhere that a fossilized bird would be called a feathered lizard by some people, but I don't know that. Myths are based on something and the old Quetzlcoatl of Mejico may eventually be found. One example of Sinosauropteryx was said to have a mammal in its stomach. Killing and eating one another before the corruption of sin? Turkana boy--poor kid. Looks malnourished, died young. Tautavel man--There are a lot of weird skull variations around the world. An old tribe in Alabama would bind boards to the heads of their young resulting in an elongated shape that would get the Coast to Coast AM crowd all stirred up. A boy in my elementary school 40 years ago had a flat back of his head. It was suggested that he was never turned over in his crib, but who knows.

gluadys -> RE: Death Reigned From Adam (6/14/2008 6:45:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wintery quote: ORIGINAL: gluadys If this is the extent of your information about intermediate species, it is sadly out of date and incomplete. Two are not even intermediate species. Piltdown man was a deliberate hoax and Nebraska Man was a journalist's headline. Hence, my reflection on the records. They weren't touted as hoaxes or mistakes, they were proven to be. Well, if you are going to pull off a hoax, you don't tell people what you are trying to do. Remember, they got away with it for a long time because no genuine hominid fossils had yet been found to compare it with. As they were, Piltdown Man looked more and more out of place, but no one even suspected hoax until they were able to date the parts and found that they were incompatible. As for Nebraska man, as I said that was mostly journalist's hype. As soon as the tooth was examined by a professional it was identified correctly. But in the meantime it sold a lot of papers. Much the same as in the recent kerfuffle over Archeoraptor. The journalists' desire to scoop the competition prevailed over waiting for a professional examination of the "discovery" much to the embarassment of the editors when the truth came out. Note that in all cases it was scientists who discovered the hoax/mistake. These are the same scientists who stand by the genuine intermediate fossils. Rather hypocritical to take their word in one case and not in the other. quote: ORIGINAL: gluadys Pakicetus?? Surely you know what I will say. A whale/land transitional from 1981 to 2001 until further bones found made it a land animal? And the problem with that is.....?????? quote: If you really want my uneducated opinion That says it all. I suppose you have no interest in upgrading your opinion to an educated one. quote: I read somewhere that a fossilized bird would be called a feathered lizard by some people, but I don't know that. Ever wonder why a lizard rather than a frog or a rabbit? quote: One example of Sinosauropteryx was said to have a mammal in its stomach. Killing and eating one another before the corruption of sin? Like I said, there is virtually no biblical support for animals not dying before the fall. Animal death is not the death Adam brought into the world through sin. quote: Turkana boy--poor kid. Looks malnourished, died young. Yes, and left us a fine example of an intermediate fossil in the human lineage. quote: Tautavel man--There are a lot of weird skull variations around the world. And what does the deformation of the skull have to so with its date, its cranial capacity and other features? Fossils are often distorted by geological pressures.

wintery -> RE: Death Reigned From Adam (6/14/2008 7:31:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gluadys quote: If you really want my uneducated opinion That says it all. I suppose you have no interest in upgrading your opinion to an educated one. Oh, I'm trying, I really am. Thanks for your help on a dull Saturday! [:)]

gluadys -> RE: Death Reigned From Adam (6/14/2008 9:28:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wintery quote: ORIGINAL: gluadys quote: If you really want my uneducated opinion That says it all. I suppose you have no interest in upgrading your opinion to an educated one. Oh, I'm trying, I really am. Thanks for your help on a dull Saturday! [:)] Keep trying then. And begin with a basic text on evolutionary biology, so that at least you know what it is.

wintery -> RE: Death Reigned From Adam (6/15/2008 6:54:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: everstudy quote: ORIGINAL: wintery I really would like to know how there can be millions of years of death (as taught in macro evolution) before man if sin and death didn't enter the world until Adam. That depends on if Paul was referring to physical death or spiritual death. If he was referring to spiritual death, as I believe he was, there is no problem saying that death existed before the fall. Many people assume that physical death is/was a bad thing. The physical death of animal and plant life from eons past have a direct benefit to mankind today (fossil fuels). And pre-fall, we don't know what God meant for death to be like. We only have post-fall death to look at. ~Everstudy Thank you for your response. Adam certainly died both physically and spiritually.

hellohellohi -> RE: Death Reigned From Adam (6/16/2008 3:46:55 PM)
For another understanding of what death as in "the wages of sin is death" means, consider that Jesus said concerning Lazarus who had died, "this sickness is not unto death." I suppose that meant that Jesus already knew that He would raise him. But, presumably, Lazarus died anyway! (I am borrowing from Kierkegaard.) What could Jesus have meant by death not being unto death? Further, He must have been implying that there IS a sickness that IS "unto death." If it is granted as obvious that sin is what He meant, then one can see that physical death is not the penalty for sin (since obviously the saved died physically yesterday and today) but rather a different death. If being redeemed is teh alternative or the opposite of death, then death must be synonymous with being "voided" if one is to continue with the metaphor of currency or the value of tokens (which can be redeemed). So, if the wages of sin is death, payable on (physical) death, then the cost is forfeiture of whatever it is that might have been "redeemed." Such as one's life -- perhaps even one's corporeal existence, some would argue. I, for one, would prefer to say that I don't know how MUCH my life is worth -- beggars can't be choosers! I just hope I don't have the kind of pride that would leave me to throw it away and NEVER find out!

everstudy -> RE: Death Reigned From Adam (6/16/2008 5:48:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: unclemonkey Do you have a problem with carnivorous animals before the fall? Nope. ~ Everstudy

Method -> RE: Death Reigned From Adam (6/18/2008 9:41:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wintery Thanks for your response. I see death as a result of sin, which didn't begin until Adam. I thought we were discussing what Paul was discussing in Romans. quote: I've read about a couple, but there would be millions of fish becoming lizards becoming mammals but completed creatures seem to be all anyone finds, even if it's a snake with feathers or whatever. All transitionals would be complete creatures. Who told you that they wouldn't? Tiktaalik rosae is both a complete creature and a transitional. T. rosae has a mixture of lobed fin fish and amphibian features which makes it transitional just as Australopithecus afarensis has a mixture of chimp and human features which makes this species a hominid transitional. The theory of evolution predicts that such species existed in the past and now we are finding their fossils. quote: Of course there are those creatures damaged by the deteriorating effects of sin. How is T. rosae "deteriorating [from the] effects of sin"? What features on this transitional fossil were produced by sin? It's front legs? What does that phrase mean as it applies to morphology? It seems that it is nothing more than a throw away phrase that gives creationist a false rationalization to ignore the evidence. quote: Considering the records of Piltdown man (ape skull), Nebraska man (pig's tooth), Java man (ape skull + pig's tooth) I don't get my hopes up very high. Oh, and Peking man just plain disappeared. Consider H. erectus, H. habilis, H. ergaster, H. heidelbergensis, A. afarensis, A. africanus, H. antecessor. All hominid transitional species that are real and are found in the fossil recorfd. You can ignore the evidence but that doesn't make it go away. Or are you going to use frauds EXPOSED BY EVOLUTIONISTS as an excuse to ignore real fossils species?

everstudy -> RE: Death Reigned From Adam (6/19/2008 7:01:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wintery Adam certainly died both physically and spiritually. You're right. And when God said that you shall surely die, he did... spiritually. There is nothing there to say that Adam then became mortal. We can't make the assumption Adam wouldn't have died had he not sinned. Spiritual death entered through the first Adam and spiritual life came from the Second. ~ Everstudy --Edited to fix wording--[:'(]

tsnody2001 -> RE: Death Reigned From Adam (6/21/2008 4:08:35 PM)
It is absurd to think that any fossil can be termed as a missing link. All we know about the fossil is that the animal died. It was not brought up out of the groud with a note that says "Missing link between dinosaurs and birds; had eight offspring (four dinosaurs, thee birds, and one in between): died of heart attack in April 18th, 64 million BC." In my OPINION, with the billions of fossils found throughout the world, there is ample evidence to support my THEORY, which is that about 4500 years ago God destroyed the earth with a worldwide flood, just like the bible says.

Method -> RE: Death Reigned From Adam (6/21/2008 4:16:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tsnody2001 It is absurd to think that any fossil can be termed as a missing link. Then what are creationists referring to when they claim that the theory of evolution is in crisis because no one is finding transitional fossils? Creationists can't have it both ways. Either they define what a transitional fossil should look like or they quit claiming that none exist. As for real biology, transitional fossils are defined as having a mixture of characteristics from two divergent taxa. A fossil with a mixture of fish and mammalian features would be a transitional between fish and mammals. A fossil with a mixture of mammalian and avian features would be a transitional between mammals and birds. In this way, the transitional nature of a fossil is independent of the theory of evoluiton. We don't need the theory to determine if a fossil is transitional because the features in the fossil itself establish this. The power of the theory of evolution is in prediction which transitionals we should AND SHOULD NOT see. The theory states that we should not see a fish/mammal transitional or a mammal/bird transitional. What we should see are reptile/mammal transitionals, and that is exactly what we find. quote: All we know about the fossil is that the animal died. If that is all we know how can we conclude that these species were created separate by divine fiat? quote: It was not brought up out of the groud with a note that says "Missing link between dinosaurs and birds; had eight offspring (four dinosaurs, thee birds, and one in between): died of heart attack in April 18th, 64 million BC." But these fossils did come out of ground that is surrounded by igneous rock which can be dated. These fossils also have avian features not seen in other dinosaurs and dinosaurian features not seen in modern day birds. This makes it transitional by definition, and it is the exact transition that the theory of evolution predicts we should find. quote: In my OPINION, with the billions of fossils found throughout the world, there is ample evidence to support my THEORY, which is that about 4500 years ago God destroyed the earth with a worldwide flood, just like the bible says. There are way too many fossils in the ground to fit into a young earth, much less a flood year. Just to fit the number of sea lily fragments found in North America you would need a 2 foot mat of sea lillies across the entire globe. To explain the coal deposits you would need 50 times the biomass found on the Earth right now. In order to explain the millions of fossils in the Karoo formation in Africa you would need hundreds of fox-sized animals for every acre. It doesn't add up.

gluadys -> RE: Death Reigned From Adam (6/21/2008 4:21:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tsnody2001 It is absurd to think that any fossil can be termed as a missing link. All we know about the fossil is that the animal died. It was not brought up out of the groud with a note that says "Missing link between dinosaurs and birds; had eight offspring (four dinosaurs, thee birds, and one in between): died of heart attack in April 18th, 64 million BC." In my OPINION, with the billions of fossils found throughout the world, there is ample evidence to support my THEORY, which is that about 4500 years ago God destroyed the earth with a worldwide flood, just like the bible says. Does, or did, any individual exist without being part of a species---a population of the same sort of individuals? Maybe the fossil found had no offspring at all, but we can expect that (unless the species became extinct with the death of this individual) that others in its population did. So we do know a lot more from a fossil than that an animal died. We know in the first place, that it was not the only animal of its kind. Others like it, with whom it may have mated before dying, also lived and probably had descendants. It is also possible to tell a lot about the life-style of a species from a fossil, and, when studied in conjunction with other fossils found in the same location, a great deal about the ecology at the time it lived and died.

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