Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent design (Full Version)

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Marcus. -> Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent design (6/13/2008 10:57:54 AM)

Bryan Fischer

June 11, 2008


Contrary to popular belief, as historian David Barton points out, the theory of evolution was around long before Charles Darwin. As far back as the 6th century B.C., Greek writers Thales and Anaximander had propounded the theory centuries before the birth of Christ. Aristotle, influenced by his intellectual forbears, also advocated a form of evolution.

Other ancient writers like Diogenes, Empedocles, Democritus, and Lucretius, all writing before the time of Christ, added variations to the theory, including such things as survival of the fittest, natural selection, and mutability of the species.

Philosophers Renee Descartes in the 17th century and Immanuel Kant in the 18th century had argued for the theory of a gradual origin of the solar system as an alternative to instantaneous creation.

Article continued



Method -> RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent design (6/13/2008 11:12:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcus.

Bryan Fischer

June 11, 2008


Contrary to popular belief, as historian David Barton points out, the theory of evolution was around long before Charles Darwin. As far back as the 6th century B.C., Greek writers Thales and Anaximander had propounded the theory centuries before the birth of Christ. Aristotle, influenced by his intellectual forbears, also advocated a form of evolution.


Darwin's contribution to science are the mechanism by which evolution occurs. Namely, descent with modification, natural selection, and speciation. Darwin got a few things wrong where inheritance is concerned, and many people have contributed to the theory since resulting in the modern theory.

quote:

Other ancient writers like Diogenes, Empedocles, Democritus, and Lucretius, all writing before the time of Christ, added variations to the theory, including such things as survival of the fittest, natural selection, and mutability of the species.


Can you give us references to natural selection in the ancient world?

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Article continued


Oh, you didn't write it. Here is another excerpt from the article that is very interesting.

All through the history of human thought, the debate over the origins of man has been a debate between two competing theories: a theistic and non-theistic explanation. Theism attributes origins to God, while non-theism attributes it to nature.

There have been theistic and non-theistic explanations for almost every phenomena in nature. There was a theistic and non-theistic theory for the production of lightning. There was a theistic and non-theistic theory for the origin of rain. Guess which theories won out?



Marcus. -> RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent design (6/13/2008 11:56:45 AM)

If you will note, you even quoted the author's name in your first quote.

I believe the author was referring to various ideas on the development of life over millenia that contain most of the elements of Darwinism.

You could Google the list of names and see what they have to say. I'm out of time today. [:o]



Jhud -> RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent design (6/13/2008 12:20:46 PM)

Well, I think in a sense this is self-evident; the rights Americans enjoy could not have been derived from an atheist or evolutionary mindset.



essentialsaltes -> RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent design (6/13/2008 12:28:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

Well, I think in a sense this is self-evident; the rights Americans enjoy could not have been derived from an atheist or evolutionary mindset.


Yes, the theistic underpinnings of the Third Amendment are quite unmistakable. [8|]



swan42 -> RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent design (6/13/2008 1:00:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

Well, I think in a sense this is self-evident; the rights Americans enjoy could not have been derived from an atheist or evolutionary mindset.


Yes, the theistic underpinnings of the Third Amendment are quite unmistakable. [8|]


Article 1, Section 2 Clause 3 are clearly theistic in origin! :-)



Jhud -> RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent design (6/13/2008 1:48:55 PM)

quote:

Yes, the theistic underpinnings of the Third Amendment are quite unmistakable.


People ignorant of the history and origins of the Constitution often make that sophmoric mistake - the bill of rights isn't the basis of our rights, it's the deliniation of certain rights - the Declaration of Independence lays out the basis of our rights.



Method -> RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent design (6/13/2008 1:51:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

Yes, the theistic underpinnings of the Third Amendment are quite unmistakable.


People ignorant of the history and origins of the Constitution often make that sophmoric mistake - the bill of rights isn't the basis of our rights, it's the deliniation of certain rights - the Declaration of Independence lays out the basis of our rights.


And people ignorant of the history and origins of the Constitution often make the sophomoric mistake of confusing deistic and Enlightenment thought with christianity. The rights spoken of are derived from Nature.



Jhud -> RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent design (6/13/2008 2:02:49 PM)

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And people ignorant of the history and origins of the Constitution often make the sophomoric mistake of confusing deistic and Enlightenment thought with christianity. The rights spoken of are derived from Nature.


Only people who can't read would assume I was referring to Christianity, and miss in the Declaration " and of nature's God..."



swan42 -> RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent design (6/13/2008 2:06:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

Well, I think in a sense this is self-evident; the rights Americans enjoy could not have been derived from an atheist or evolutionary mindset.


Cart/Horse. It is also true that an atheist or evolutionary mindset did not influence the rights Americans enjoy.



Jhud -> RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent design (6/13/2008 2:08:02 PM)

quote:

Cart/Horse. It is also true that an atheist or evolutionary mindset did not influence the rights Americans enjoy.


Isn't that what I just said?



cow451 -> RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent design (6/13/2008 2:13:32 PM)

I fail to find "Intelligent Design" in any writings of the founding fathers.



swan42 -> RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent design (6/13/2008 2:14:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

Cart/Horse. It is also true that an atheist or evolutionary mindset did not influence the rights Americans enjoy.


Isn't that what I just said?

No, you said they could not have as if to say there was some limitation of an atheist and evolutionary mindsets.

I say they didn't, but they could have.
Especially if the American Revolution occurred after the voyage of the Beagle.



Jhud -> RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent design (6/13/2008 2:50:48 PM)

quote:

No, you said they could not have as if to say there was some limitation of an atheist and evolutionary mindsets.


I said:

“the rights Americans enjoy could not have been derived from an atheist or evolutionary mindset.”

You said:

“It is also true that an atheist or evolutionary mindset did not influence the rights Americans enjoy.”

Same thing, almost word for word.

quote:

I say they didn't, but they could have.


There is no way to know this of course. How would you show this is true?



Jhud -> RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent design (6/13/2008 2:51:50 PM)

quote:

I fail to find "Intelligent Design" in any writings of the founding fathers.


See, I think they put a lot of thought into their writings.



essentialsaltes -> RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent design (6/13/2008 3:23:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

No, you said they could not have as if to say there was some limitation of an atheist and evolutionary mindsets.


I said:

“the rights Americans enjoy could not have been derived from an atheist or evolutionary mindset.”

You said:

“It is also true that an atheist or evolutionary mindset did not influence the rights Americans enjoy.”

Same thing, almost word for word.


Only people who can't read would confuse 'did not' for 'could not'.



Method -> RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent design (6/13/2008 3:38:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud
Only people who can't read would assume I was referring to Christianity, and miss in the Declaration " and of nature's God..."


Where did I say that you were referring to christianity. A simple agreement would have sufficed.

Also, "Nature's God" is a reference to deism and Enlightenment thought which was heavily influenced by atheistic and humanistic ideals.



Jhud -> RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent design (6/13/2008 3:39:19 PM)

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Only people who can't read would confuse 'did not' for 'could not'.


Obviously if you can't you wouldn't.



Jhud -> RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent design (6/13/2008 3:42:12 PM)

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Where did I say that you were referring to christianity. A simple agreement would have sufficed.


You said that I had confused, "deistic and Enlightenment thought with christianity"; I had done no such thing.

quote:

Also, "Nature's God" is a reference to deism and Enlightenment thought which was heavily influenced by atheistic and humanistic ideals.


I appreciate your attempt to reduce God to an atheistic concept, but no one here is insane.



Method -> RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent design (6/13/2008 3:50:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud
You said that I had confused, "deistic and Enlightenment thought with christianity"; I had done no such thing.


No, I said people do.

quote:

I appreciate your attempt to reduce God to an atheistic concept, but no one here is insane.


I said the ideals upon which the Constitution and DoI were based upon include atheistic and humanistic ideals. The deist movement was heavily influenced by atheist ideals. "Nature's God" is a deist god on the same level as Spinoza's God.



Jhud -> RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent design (6/13/2008 3:55:01 PM)

quote:

No, I said people do.


You said it in specific response to my statement - if you didn't mean me, then you should not have said in repsonse to my quote, or made it clear I hadn't done so.

I said the ideals upon which the Constitution and DoI were based upon include atheistic and humanistic ideals. The deist movement was heavily influenced by atheist ideals. "Nature's God" is a deist god on the same level as Spinoza's God.

It's like you don't think anyone else can go back and read what you wrote. You said:

""Nature's God" is a reference to deism and Enlightenment thought which was heavily influenced by atheistic and humanistic ideals."

It is by definition not atheistic in the least, and other references like "Creator" and "Divine Providence" anihilate such an idea.

And the Deism of that day was nothing like the deism of this day, nor anything like Spinoza's idea of God, nor atheism.



swan42 -> RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent design (6/13/2008 4:23:43 PM)

quote:



“It is also true that an atheist or evolutionary mindset did not influence the rights Americans enjoy.”

Same thing, almost word for word.


The difference in meaning hinges on the difference in words.
You said "could not" I said "did not".



Jhud -> RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent design (6/13/2008 4:25:48 PM)

quote:

The difference in meaning hinges on the difference in words.
You said "could not" I said "did not".


I stand by 'could not' - but this would also explain why they 'did not'.



swan42 -> RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent design (6/13/2008 4:34:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

The difference in meaning hinges on the difference in words.
You said "could not" I said "did not".


I stand by 'could not' - but this would also explain why they 'did not'.


Yes. Now the reason you chose 'could not' is because you think the DoI and Constitution and Bill of Rights that outline rights enjoyed by Americans could not come from an atheist or evolutionary mindset is

1. because atheism and evolution were limited to a tiny corner of political philosophy (possible)
2. because somehow these rights are not conceivable by atheists and evolutionists.

Participants in BeyondBelief 2 are attempting to reconcile #2

http://thesciencenetwork.org/BeyondBelief2/



Method -> RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent design (6/13/2008 4:36:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud
It's like you don't think anyone else can go back and read what you wrote. You said:

""Nature's God" is a reference to deism and Enlightenment thought which was heavily influenced by atheistic and humanistic ideals."

It is by definition not atheistic in the least, and other references like "Creator" and "Divine Providence" anihilate such an idea.


I stand by what I said. Deism and Enlightenment thought was heavily influenced by atheist/humanistic ideals such as those put forward by Thomas Paine. "Common Sense" written by Thomas Paine was one of the greater inspirations for the American Revolution and the ideals which founded the Constitution and inspired the DoI.

I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
-- Thomas Paine, (1737-1809), The Age of Reason,

It is from the Bible that man has learned cruelty, rapine and murder; for the belief of a cruel God makes a cruel man.
-- Thomas Paine

And these are the nice quotes.

quote:

And the Deism of that day was nothing like the deism of this day, nor anything like Spinoza's idea of God, nor atheism.


From my understanding, the Deism of the time proposed that God set the Universe moving and did not interact. Deism denied the existence of a "God of Miracles". Is this how you understand it?



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