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jkdjr25 -> Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/12/2008 9:39:02 PM)

The Supreme Court ruled, today I believe, that the people we've been holding without charge in Guantanamo Bay have the right to confront their charges in a court of law.

I can't say how pleased I am with this ruling as it forces the administration to abide by the rule of law. The threat of terrorism is NO excuse for violations of the rule of law.

The President remarked that he had to abide by the high court's ruling but he didn't have to like it. He went on to say that perhaps new legislation would be looked into.



tafkam -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/12/2008 9:39:53 PM)

Again, POWs are not protected by our Constitution....

quote:

I can't say how pleased I am with this ruling as it forces the administration to abide by the rule of law.


However most on the left were totally in favor of Bill Clinton lying under oath.....



jkdjr25 -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/12/2008 9:45:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tafkam

Again, POWs are not protected by our Constitution....

quote:

I can't say how pleased I am with this ruling as it forces the administration to abide by the rule of law.


However most on the left were totally in favor of Bill Clinton lying under oath.....


You are wrong.

Aside from the Geneva Convention, which provides for the protection of POWs there's also the Federal Anti-Torture Act, which we've been in violation of as well.

The Supreme Court ruled that the rule of law applies, even to our prisoners at Gitmo. Even they are entitled to know what they're being charged with. No one should be held indefinitely and without charge, doing so is immoral and evil.



tafkam -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/12/2008 9:50:35 PM)

No, you are wrong. The Geneva Convention does not apply to outfits like Al Quaeda. Do some homework.

And according to the left, even things like sleep deprivation and loud music are considered "torture".



jkdjr25 -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/12/2008 9:53:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tafkam

No, you are wrong. The Geneva Convention does not apply to outfits like Al Quaeda. Do some homework.

And according to the left, even things like sleep deprivation and loud music are considered "torture".


Nice try.

Unless the Geneva Convention applies to all, it's meaningless. Of course given that the President lied about the use of torture in the first place I'm not really surprised at his reaction to the ruling.

The rule of law applies to all or not at all.



tafkam -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/12/2008 9:55:45 PM)

Try reading the Geneva Convention sometime. It applies to uniformed soldiers from established nations. Not thugs and murderers enforcing an ideology....



jkdjr25 -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/12/2008 9:57:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tafkam

Try reading the Geneva Convention sometime. It applies to uniformed soldiers from established nations. Not thugs and murderers enforcing an ideology....


If they aren't soldiers then they should be tried by civilian courts. Military tribunals should apply to enemy soldiers, not criminals and thugs as you call them. And if they fall under the jurisdiction of the civilian courts then they should be afforded the right of Habeus Corpus.

Thanks for proving me right.



tafkam -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/12/2008 9:59:42 PM)

But you forget, they are not American citizens, so they should have no more rights under our Constitution than we would have if we were in their country...



mapachito13 -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/12/2008 10:04:44 PM)

I am amazed that conservatives are whining about this ruling. I thought conservatism was about LESS government intrusion into our lives not living in a POLICE STATE!!! I guess I'm wrong about that one or are the likes of Rush & friends two-faced with two constitutions, one for them and another for me and you?

Right now under the patriot act you can be monitored just under the sole reason you are hooked into the internet. Oh I also enjoy how now city governments are starting regular "sobriety checkpoints" as an excuse to perform blanket searches with the only probable cause that you are driving a car!



jkdjr25 -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/12/2008 10:08:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tafkam

But you forget, they are not American citizens, so they should have no more rights under our Constitution than we would have if we were in their country...


Then deport them back to their country of origin. Again, the rule of law.

You can't have it both ways. Either they're enemy soldiers, and thus protected under the Geneva Conventions, or they're civilians and must face due process under our civilian courts OR be sent packing to their homelands. The administration has tried, unsuccessfully now, to say that they had no protection, and with the Supreme Court's ruling there's some teeth to enforce what many of us have been saying for a while now.

The ends never justify the means. What the country has been doing is immoral and evil. It's the kind of behaviour I'd expect out of Stalin's Russia to be honest.



tafkam -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/12/2008 10:08:51 PM)

Keeping detainees detained as part of the WOT is hardly a police state.

And I'm still waiting for somebody, ANYBODY to tell us of a single right they THEY PERSONALLY have lost.

Anyone? Anyone? Beuller? Beuller?



relady -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/12/2008 10:09:46 PM)

You don't even want to know how the cops stopped and hassled my son the other night, whose only crime was probably having long hair . Suffice to say, it was illegal and the pair who pulled him over didn't care and told him so. their probable cause for searching his car without a warrant? "You look nervous". YOU LOOK NERVOUS??? Gimme a break. The old line of "if I haven't done anything wrong, I have nothing to fear" is no longer true in America. Please don't delude yourselves that it is.



tafkam -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/12/2008 10:09:58 PM)

quote:

The ends never justify the means. What the country has been doing is immoral and evil. It's the kind of behaviour I'd expect out of Stalin's Russia to be honest


Ah, the good old, "blame America first" ideology. Gotta love it....[;)]



jkdjr25 -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/12/2008 10:10:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tafkam

Keeping detainees detained as part of the WOT is hardly a police state.

And I'm still waiting for somebody, ANYBODY to tell us of a single right they THEY PERSONALLY have lost.

Anyone? Anyone? Beuller? Beuller?



See this is an example of a strawman argument.

It doesn't hold water because there are documented cases of these things happening. That they haven't happened to you, or even people here does not negate the fact that it's happened.



colliefan -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/12/2008 10:10:26 PM)

quote:

Aside from the Geneva Convention


The Geneva Covention DOES NOT apply. To apply the combatants must be flying the flag of a soveriegn country and be wearing a unifrom.

To give terrorists the rights of a US citizen is absurd. There is no jurisprudence for this ruling.

What are our solidiers on the battlefield to do when the capture someone? Read them their Miranda Rights? The best thing to do is just to kill them before they are capture. With this ruling the thugs and killers in Gitmo have the right to sue the US government! Just shoot first and leave them on the battlefield to rot.



tafkam -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/12/2008 10:11:16 PM)

quote:

You don't even want to know how the cops stopped and hassled my son the other night, whose only crime was probably having long hair . Suffice to say, it was illegal and the pair who pulled him over didn't care and told him so. their probably cause for searching his car without a warrant? "You look nervous". YOU LOOK NERVOUS??? Gimme a break. The old line of "if I haven't done anything wrong, I have nothing to fear" is no longer true in America


And Bush was responsible for this.....how? I've been pulled over a number of times for reasons I thought were lacking. But I didn't go off half cocked and start blaming the government.

C'mon, guys, you can do better than that....



colliefan -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/12/2008 10:12:40 PM)

quote:

It doesn't hold water because there are documented cases of these things happening. That they haven't happened to you, or even people here does not negate the fact that it's happened.


They are terrorists captured on the battlefield. They have NO rights as citizens because they are not American citizens.



jkdjr25 -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/12/2008 10:12:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

quote:

Aside from the Geneva Convention


The Geneva Covention DOES NOT apply. To apply the combatants must be flying the flag of a soveriegn country and be wearing a unifrom.

To give terrorists the rights of a US citizen is absurd. There is no jurisprudence for this ruling.

What are our solidiers on the battlefield to do when the capture someone? Read them their Miranda Rights? The best thing to do is just to kill them before they are capture. With this ruling the thugs and killers in Gitmo have the right to sue the US government! Just shoot first and leave them on the battlefield to rot.


Well that's certainly a Christian attitude. At least you're honest though.

You cannot hold a person indefintely with no charge. It's immoral. There is zero argument around that simple fact.



relady -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/12/2008 10:14:44 PM)

quote:

And Bush was responsible for this.....how?
the Patriot act has made this type of behavior much easier to get away with. My son very calmly asserted his right to not have his car searched without a warrant and they went ballistic and told him they needed no reason. Unacceptable behavior and much more prevalent since 2001.

Just because you don't "feel" you've lost rights doesn't mean you haven't. It just hasn't affected you. Yet. But it will.

quote:

I've been pulled over a number of times for reasons I thought were lacking.
They stated no reason for pulling him over. Never did. Very illegal behavior, but again, much more prevalent and accepted because the Patriot Act has made it so.



tafkam -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/12/2008 10:14:50 PM)

To those cheering this ruling, I have to ask....do you want the US to win in the WOT or not?

Anytime someone supports a move which weakens our war effort, you just gotta ask....



colliefan -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/12/2008 10:15:48 PM)

quote:

Either they're enemy soldiers, and thus protected under the Geneva Conventions


Theu are NOT protected under the Geneve Convention



tafkam -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/12/2008 10:16:28 PM)

Um, relady, cops can search a car without a warrant if they feel there is reasonable cause. It happens every day on roads all over America and has been happening for decades.

Call the local police station and I think you'll be informed that it is perfectly acceptable and legal procedure...



jkdjr25 -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/12/2008 10:16:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tafkam

To those cheering this ruling, I have to ask....do you want the US to win in the WOT or not?

Anytime someone supports a move which weakens our war effort, you just gotta ask....


And we have a winner!

Attempting to neuter the discussion by implying that those of us who agree with the high court's ruling want the terrorists to win.

Thank you for proving my earlier point perfectly.



colliefan -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/12/2008 10:17:27 PM)

quote:

You cannot hold a person indefintely with no charge. It's immoral. There is zero argument around that simple fact.


On a civilian charge this is true, but this is war.



tafkam -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/12/2008 10:17:35 PM)

I notice you didn't answer the question......



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