Salvation for the un-accountable? (Full Version)

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LXX -> Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/12/2008 11:17:48 AM)

I was in a chat room with a fellow believer and we got on the subject of infant salvation. He seem to believe in a black and white version of born into sin. Meaning, if you die at any age without the belief in Christ then you are lost. I responded that infants and children that are not at the age of accountability fall under a special grace by God. He responded by "show me the verse". He was not, to my understanding, having an attitude but was inquisitive.
So I explained first that in 1Co 13:12, (For now we see through a mirror in dimness, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will fully know even as I also was fully known.), that understanding a few subjects might fall under this scripture. Meaning, there are some scriptures that will allude to it and some mysteries will not be fully known by us.
With that said I used, 2Sa 12:23 (And now he has died. Why this, that I should fast? Am I able to bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.) This is David's 1st child and God said David's first will die because of David's sin and his responce was that he can't bring the child back but he will meet him in heaven.
Now this is an example of a child that is not accountable due to his understanding and the punishment from God was the death of this child. But God's grace gave David the insight to make a statement like he did that he would be with him in the after life.
I am not a calvinist but this website has a very knowledgable opinion on this subject.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/boettner/predest.iv.iii.xi.html?highlight=infant,salvation#highlight

In conclusion using 1co 13:12 as our format of this subject and 2Sa 12:23 as a reference text I can without any doubt know that infants and children before the age of accountability are under God's special grace and will be in heaven if the pass away because of the neverending love of God toward this world during this grace we fall under.



BerianAardvark -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/12/2008 11:44:55 AM)

There is also at least one other reference wherein God meted out punishment, but excluded some based upon age.

'None of the men who came up from Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I swore to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob; for they did not follow Me fully, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite and Joshua the son of Nun, for they have followed the LORD fully.' (Numbers 32:11-12)

So God held those twenty and over accountable, but not those under that age. Since the people were to wander forty years in the wilderness that would make Joshua and Caleb at least sixty by the time they entered the land (they were specifically exempted, so they had to have been at least twenty at the time), their generation and the generations before died in the wilderness due to their rebellion...but those under twenty were not held accountable apparently due solely to their age.

If it were a matter of needing adults to fight (or numbers) God could have granted longer life to Joshua and Caleb and kept the people wandering for as long as it took, so it must be a matter of age.

I wouldn't use this to make dogmatic doctrines about what the age of accountability is...but it is an example of accountability by age.

Tim



GrahamCracker -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/12/2008 11:46:37 AM)

With regard to infants, scripture simply doesn't give us a straightforward answer. David probably didn't expect his baby to punished eternally because he didn't have a choice. But did David even know? Scripture doesn't tell us, so we are left with educated guesses when we interpret scripture.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/12/2008 12:53:56 PM)

Since everyone is born without sin it seems to me that if someone should die before they commit sin, they would be heaven bound. People may be born with a sin nature, but I don't believe we are condemned to hell for our nature. We are condemned to hell for sins we actually commit. So if one dies before they commit any sins they wouldn't be condemned.



LXX -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/12/2008 1:27:31 PM)

Thank you for your response GrahamCracker, the only thing is see that I differ with is that the scriptures do not countermand what you think is an assumption of David. And since all scripture is inspired by God then David's thought is correct.

Greatdivide....We are all born as sinners and that was the point of this debate about children. Scriptures read that with Adam we all sinned and whith Christ we are saved from that sin.



bob97 -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/12/2008 2:17:44 PM)

How does 1 Co 13:12 speak to infant salvation? To me Paul is making an illustration to show our lack of knowledge here in this life, compared with what it will be in the future.

quote:

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.



Bob



BerianAardvark -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/12/2008 2:19:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LXX
Greatdivide....We are all born as sinners and that was the point of this debate about children. Scriptures read that with Adam we all sinned and whith Christ we are saved from that sin.


Can you come up with a text for that? The nearest I could find in a quick search was:
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. (Romans 5:12-14)

Which does say that all sinned....but what sin can be imputed to a baby too young to understand right from wrong (the very basis of the Law)? Remember: "but sin is not imputed when there is no law."

All die because of sin, because death entered the world because of sin...in other words all have a sin nature.

Original sin gave us death and the depravity of man, but the depravity of our human nature is not sin in and of itself.

When we knowingly and willfully follow that depraved nature, choosing it over following God; that is sin, up to a certain age (not sure what that age is) we cannot do that because we lack the capacity to make responsible decisions.

After that age we can. Even people who have never heard the Gospel, or Torah have a conscious that indicates right from wrong...and everyone violates that conscious from time to time, so none is sinless, having knowingly committed wrong.

That is my take at any rate.

Tim



greatdivide46 -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/12/2008 2:44:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LXX

Greatdivide....We are all born as sinners and that was the point of this debate about children. Scriptures read that with Adam we all sinned and whith Christ we are saved from that sin.
I would respectfully disagree that we are all born as sinners. We may be born with a sin nature, but we're not sinners until we actually commit a sin.

The thing I don't understand about this sin nature, though, is that, apparently, people are willing to believe that the sin of one man (Adam) was universal in its effects, but the sacrifice of one individual (Christ) was not universal in its effects. It seems to me that whatever the whole human race got (or would have gotten) from Adam has been completely canceled out for the whole human race by the gracious atoning work of Jesus Christ. But maybe I'm placing too much emphasis on Christ's sacrifice. Maybe it wasn't as powerful as Adam's sin.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/12/2008 2:55:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BerianAardvark

Can you come up with a text for that? The nearest I could find in a quick search was:
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. (Romans 5:12-14).
You got it! That's the scripture I was thinking of when I made that post.

quote:

Which does say that all sinned....but what sin can be imputed to a baby too young to understand right from wrong (the very basis of the Law)? Remember: "but sin is not imputed when there is no law."
Certainly all sinned, but we're not born sinners. We may be born with the ability to sin and with a sin nature, but we're not sinners until we actually commit sin.

quote:

All die because of sin, because death entered the world because of sin...in other words all have a sin nature.
It's entirely possible that all have a sin nature. I don't disagree with that . . . yet [:)]

quote:

Original sin gave us death and the depravity of man, but the depravity of our human nature is not sin in and of itself.
Actually, I'd rather believe in original grace, than original sin. As I said in my previous post, whatever we might have inherited from Adam is canceled out by the sacrifice of Christ, therefore we are born under grace, not under sin.

quote:

When we knowingly and willfully follow that depraved nature, choosing it over following God; that is sin, up to a certain age (not sure what that age is) we cannot do that because we lack the capacity to make responsible decisions.
Yes, I agree.

quote:

After that age we can. Even people who have never heard the Gospel, or Torah have a conscious that indicates right from wrong...and everyone violates that conscious from time to time, so none is sinless, having knowingly committed wrong.
Yes, I agree here too.

I hope I didn't give the impression that I think people can't sin. That's not what I believe at all. I just don't think we're born condemned by someone else's sin.



FreeGrace -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/12/2008 4:10:34 PM)

LXX,
good post! As you, I am not a calvinist, nor am I arminian. But I agree that there is a "category" of people who go to heaven without having believed in Christ.

One of my support verses is also 2 Sam 12:23. Seems clear to me that David fully expected to see his son again (in heaven), though not on this earth. I think that is strong reason to believe that those who don't reach a level of intellectual understanding so that they can believe the gospel go to heaven.

Rom 11:32 says "For God has shut up all in disobedience that He might show mercy to all". We are all "under" sin and "have" sinned, per Rom 3:9 and 3:23. But God shows mercy to all. That suggests strongly to me that Christ died for all, so that it can be said that God may show mercy to all.

There are many verses that indicate that Christ died for all: Jn 1:7, 29, 3:16,17, 17:21,27, Acts 17:30, Luke 19:10, 2 Cor 5:14,15,19, heb 2:9, Titus 2:11, 1 Tim 1;5, 2:3,6,4:10, 2 Pet 3:9, 1 John 2:2, 4:14, Rev 22:17.

2 Pet 2:1 tells us that Christ bought false teachers.

Also, Rom 1 says that "everything that is known about God has been made evident by God to men so that no one has any excuse for not recognizing and honoring Him". I would think it obvious that infants and some born mentally challenged will not recognize God's existence since their intellectual capacity isn't developed. One of the points of Rom 1 and having no excuse is in "suppressing the truth". One cannot suppress what one does not know to exist.

So, everyone is held accountable to recognizing God and honoring Him as God, per Rom 1. Those who suppress the truth are fools, who say in their hearts, there is no God, per Psa 14 and 53.

Since infants and some mentally challenged people simply cannot recognize or honor God, due to lack of intellectual capacity, they are not suppressing any truth.

Even Paul noted in 1 Tim 1:13 that he acted in ignorant unbelief when he persecuted the church. I used to wonder if he was merely making excuses for his behavior, but I've come to see that he was addressing the issue of suppression of truth. As one who was zealous for God, he clearly did recognize and honor God. But other than this statement of ignorance, we do not know if he ever had faced the gospel prior to the Damascus road. Since many Jews viewed Jesus as merely a blasphemous human, claiming to be God, Paul may have also done so. There is no account that he was ever face to face with Jesus before the Damascus road, or dealt with any of the apostles. My impression is that most believers knew him only by name, and not by face.

I think the point can be made that acting in ignorant unbelief is very different than acting in suppression of the truth, which is active rejection of the truth.

Infants are not capable, nor are some mentally challenged, to actively reject truth.

Therefore, I believe that infants and such mentally challenged go to heaven because Christ died for them, and they did not reach the "age" or level of mental development where they were able to either recognize God or actively reject any such evidence.

Hope this is clear.



Doghouse -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/12/2008 5:00:10 PM)

I believe the nature of sin involves the intellect and the will. If there is neither of these present in "self", there is no capacity to sin.

In this way "age of reason" is an expression of the intellect being developed enough, in order to reason sin versus "not sin", and the will being developed enough to enact or perform the reasoned choice (or in the case of a sin of omission, not perform the reasoned choice that would result in "not sin").

Therefore, I think it is valid to expect that infants and small children cannot really sin as such. They may be capable (as humans stained with original sin), but lack the capacity. These are two completely different things in my mind.

As to original sin - I accept that children and other innocents may be claimed by guardians through baptism, wherein the will of the guardian is to Baptize and join the innocent to the Holy Spirit. This may only be rejected by the willful act of the innocent at an age of reason.

As for children not Baptized - surely God has a big heart and is gracious and compassionate in His mercy, especially for those who cannot help or choose for themselves. I fully trust God's just judgment in this - whatever it may be.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/12/2008 11:02:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LXX

I was in a chat room with a fellow believer and we got on the subject of infant salvation. He seem to believe in a black and white version of born into sin. Meaning, if you die at any age without the belief in Christ then you are lost. I responded that infants and children that are not at the age of accountability fall under a special grace by God. He responded by "show me the verse". He was not, to my understanding, having an attitude but was inquisitive.
So I explained first that in 1Co 13:12, (For now we see through a mirror in dimness, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will fully know even as I also was fully known.), that understanding a few subjects might fall under this scripture. Meaning, there are some scriptures that will allude to it and some mysteries will not be fully known by us.
With that said I used, 2Sa 12:23 (And now he has died. Why this, that I should fast? Am I able to bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.) This is David's 1st child and God said David's first will die because of David's sin and his responce was that he can't bring the child back but he will meet him in heaven.
Now this is an example of a child that is not accountable due to his understanding and the punishment from God was the death of this child. But God's grace gave David the insight to make a statement like he did that he would be with him in the after life.
I am not a calvinist but this website has a very knowledgable opinion on this subject.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/boettner/predest.iv.iii.xi.html?highlight=infant,salvation#highlight

In conclusion using 1co 13:12 as our format of this subject and 2Sa 12:23 as a reference text I can without any doubt know that infants and children before the age of accountability are under God's special grace and will be in heaven if the pass away because of the neverending love of God toward this world during this grace we fall under.


The verse regarding David and his son doesn't speak of heaven, but that David will follow him in death... Heaven is an assumption based on the verse...

And I find it quite interesting that those who beat the drum of free will and one must make a choice in regards to salvation are so quick to jump on the predestination band wagon in regards to children...

As well if death is automatic salvation for infants I'd rather have God take my children at birth instead of taking a chance they might not make the right choice later on...

For that matter I cry foul... Since God numbers our days infant salvation in nothing less than salvation via predestination....

John
John



FreeGrace -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/13/2008 8:01:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
The verse regarding David and his son doesn't speak of heaven, but that David will follow him in death... Heaven is an assumption based on the verse...

Given David's orientation to God, it should be quite evident that he was speaking of being with his son in heaven.

quote:

And I find it quite interesting that those who beat the drum of free will and one must make a choice in regards to salvation are so quick to jump on the predestination band wagon in regards to children...

You missed the point of this thread. It is about the "un-accountable", which has zero to do with predestination. Since Christ died for everyone, those who don't reach that "age of accountability" or remain "un-accountable" are covered by the blood of Christ.

quote:

As well if death is automatic salvation for infants I'd rather have God take my children at birth instead of taking a chance they might not make the right choice later on...

I don't understand your quandry here. Since your theology is that God chose from eternity past, there is no choice anyway. So, how does that change whether your children live past infancy or not?



FREELUTH -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/13/2008 10:08:03 AM)

This whole thread is built on a false premise. That God does not hold infants accountable. Infants are wretched selfish sinners just like the rest of us. As Larry said earlier scripture is very vauge about this, but we can trust our God to do what is right and just. I personally believe infants can be given faith just like the rest of us.



LXX -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/13/2008 11:11:19 AM)

Bob....the only reason I used that verse 1co 13:12 was to set the ground work that we are still only looking at scripture through a glass darkley and some areas of faith are not clearly spelled out. Not as a proof text for infant salvation. I don't have the perfect answer to this question except for what information I've studied and this is what the Spirit confirms in my heart.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/13/2008 11:22:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FREELUTH

This whole thread is built on a false premise. That God does not hold infants accountable. Infants are wretched selfish sinners just like the rest of us. As Larry said earlier scripture is very vauge about this, but we can trust our God to do what is right and just. I personally believe infants can be given faith just like the rest of us.

If God holds infants accountable, what is He holding them accountable for -- Adam's sin?



LXX -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/13/2008 11:23:08 AM)

berian....I think if I read you letter correctly we do agree. I paraphrased the subject.

Your(berian) statement.....Which does say that all sinned....but what sin can be imputed to a baby too young to understand right from wrong (the very basis of the Law)? Remember: "but sin is not imputed when there is no law."

This is agree on......the point of the other believer was that this punishment applied to even infants. And this is what I was disputing. thank you



LXX -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/13/2008 11:25:34 AM)

free grace....excellent answers. Thank you...



BerianAardvark -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/13/2008 11:28:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LXX

berian....I think if I read you letter correctly we do agree. I paraphrased the subject.

Your(berian) statement.....Which does say that all sinned....but what sin can be imputed to a baby too young to understand right from wrong (the very basis of the Law)? Remember: "but sin is not imputed when there is no law."

This is agree on......the point of the other believer was that this punishment applied to even infants. And this is what I was disputing. thank you


Sorry if I was unclear, yes we agree.

Tim



FREELUTH -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/13/2008 11:49:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

quote:

ORIGINAL: FREELUTH

This whole thread is built on a false premise. That God does not hold infants accountable. Infants are wretched selfish sinners just like the rest of us. As Larry said earlier scripture is very vauge about this, but we can trust our God to do what is right and just. I personally believe infants can be given faith just like the rest of us.

If God holds infants accountable, what is He holding them accountable for -- Adam's sin?


Well yes Adam's sin and the infants own sin. Do infants love God with their whole heart and their neighbor as themselves ? Now I realize it is harder for an infant to sin against his neighbor, but are infants guilty of unbelief ? I am not saying all infants are damned. I do not know. I am sure God saves some or maybe all. I know Jesus said to not hinder little children from coming to him, and if I remember correctly the word for little children can mean toddlers or infants ?? I will have to look it up later.



LXX -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/13/2008 11:51:12 AM)

Dear sovereign....From John Gill "I shall go to him; to the state of the dead, to the grave, where his body was, or would be; to heaven and eternal happiness, where his soul was, as he comfortably hoped and believed: from whence it appears, that the Old Testament saints did not suppose an annihilation at death; but believed the immortality of the soul, a future state after death of eternal life and bliss:"

This is just one commentary....

Now, I don't follow your logic that when free will advocates believe that infant death is under the grace of God and they go to heaven you quickly define it as predestination? It is not playing both fields as you try to state it.

I find it funny when speaking to some calvinist it is as if I am in an argument not a discussion.

And when it come to your conclusion about having your children taken before the age of accountability so they might reach Heaven your statements are elementary in thinking on this subject.

I am glad you are firm in your opinion about calvinism and I am sure your faith in God is great but remember that the debate between free will and predestination has not been settle by any man. In Romans 14 we are to treat each other with love when differences of worship arise.

Rom 14:8 For both if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Then both if we live, and if we die, we are the Lord's.
Rom 14:18 For the one serving Christ in these things(righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. ) is pleasing to God, and approved by men.
Rom 14:19 So then let us pursue the things of peace, and the things for building up one another.

Both men are approved by God just like both men who each believe differently on this subject are approved by God.

Debate is good and needed but remember to love first!



bob97 -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/13/2008 12:12:41 PM)

quote:

Bob....the only reason I used that verse 1co 13:12 was to set the ground work that we are still only looking at scripture through a glass darkley and some areas of faith are not clearly spelled out. Not as a proof text for infant salvation. I don't have the perfect answer to this question except for what information I've studied and this is what the Spirit confirms in my heart.


Thanks LLX...I understand where you're coming from now.

___________________________________________________________________

I have to agree with Freeluth...we are all born into sin, the Bible is very clear on this point. If we weren't is there some magical age when we just automatically to become sinners? I don't understand God's intentions and it is somewhat like LLX points to in 1 CO 13:12...we simply don't understand in this life. I can't say how God views small children; I just have to trust in His providence knowing that He will do what is right in His eyes.

Bob



FREELUTH -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/13/2008 12:20:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

quote:

Bob....the only reason I used that verse 1co 13:12 was to set the ground work that we are still only looking at scripture through a glass darkley and some areas of faith are not clearly spelled out. Not as a proof text for infant salvation. I don't have the perfect answer to this question except for what information I've studied and this is what the Spirit confirms in my heart.


Thanks LLX...I understand where you're coming from now.

___________________________________________________________________

I have to agree with Freeluth...we are all born into sin, the Bible is very clear on this point. If we weren't is there some magical age when we just automatically to become sinners? I don't understand God's intentions and it is somewhat like LLX points to in 1 CO 13:12...we simply don't understand in this life. I can't say how God views small children; I just have to trust in His providence knowing that He will do what is right in His eyes.

Bob


Yeah us Western KS guys have to stick together[;)]



bob97 -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/13/2008 12:30:08 PM)

Amen brother...I'm glad this is where I live...we don't have to worry about much flooding out here do we? [:)]

Bob



greatdivide46 -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/13/2008 1:44:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FREELUTH

Well yes Adam's sin and the infants own sin.

Since when are people held accountable for someone else's sin?. And what sins to infants commit?

quote:

Do infants love God with their whole heart and their neighbor as themselves ? Now I realize it is harder for an infant to sin against his neighbor, but are infants guilty of unbelief ? I am not saying all infants are damned. I do not know. I am sure God saves some or maybe all. I know Jesus said to not hinder little children from coming to him, and if I remember correctly the word for little children can mean toddlers or infants ?? I will have to look it up later.

Yes the Greek word, paidion does mean a young child. However, these children seemed to be able to come to Jesus on their own, because the disciples were hindering them. Or maybe, like at political campaigns, the mothers were trying to get Jesus to hold their babies. [:)]



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