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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/23/2008 7:32:58 AM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
quote:
This thread is about the unaccountable. That would be those who were not able to comprehend, and therefore believe. I hope you do agree that in order to believe something, you and to understand what you are believing in.
But, there are those who die without coming to the place of comprehending that God is creator, much less that Christ died for them, due either to early death, or being born with severe mental incapacitation. Those are the ones under discussion in this thread.
I believe that since Christ died for all, those who for lack of development never came to comprehend, are saved because they are unaccountable.
Those who do come to comprehend and believe are saved. Neither category deserves to be saved, nor have earned it.
Why? We are all saved by grace, Eph 2:5, 8. It was grace that God provided salvation for everyone. But man is accountable for believing the gospel, and condemned for rejecting it. I would be more than happy to keep the discussion zeroed in on this,however somehow we have managed to confuse the work that Jesus did as somehow changing the rules of the game.
No one has "changed the rules". But any discussion of those able to comprehend and believe/reject with those who are not able to MUST include a discussion of exactly how many did Christ die for. That is key to the discussion.
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To suggest that any are unaccountable is off base.We are ALL as you like to say guilty of sin,thus we ALL are condemned to death and separation from God.Jesus died to change/remove this death sentence.
The Bible states one is saved by grace through faith. Do you seriously claim that infants and the severely mentally handicapped can even come to faith? If so, on what basis do you make that claim? So, there is an issue of accountability. We see that principle in Rom 1, where God has made evident to everyone His existence, so that no one has any excuse. Maybe you don't see the issue of accountability in that statement, but it's there anyway.
[quoet]That he died does not now mean that men get to start from 0-then slowly go back to 10 as they reach some proposed age of accountability.
I have no idea what you mean by start from 0 and go back to 10. Please re-phrase.
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Think about it,as the mod has already posed the logic of this as such: The Bible teaches that what Adam did in the garden had automatic consequences for all humans. What Christ did on the cross did not have automatic eternal consequences for all humans.
I agree. I've never claimed "automatic eternal consequences for all humans". You misunderstand me. The "eternal consequences" are only for the unaccountable, the very subject of this thread. Those who have no excuse, per Rom 1 are very accountable.
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To say that all infants or children below an age of accountability is saying that we are born saved and then at some point lose it and have to get it back.
No, it's not saying that at all. It does say that Christ died for everyone, and Rom 11:32 says that God has shut up all in disobedience that He might show mercy to all". Maybe that verse doesn't "speak" to you, but it does to me.
We are all saved by grace. So, whether one is unaccountable and unable to believe and is saved or one is accountable and believes and is saved is no different. Neither category deserves to be saved, nor earns it. That is GRACE.
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This does not pass any scriptural test,which is why you would be hard pressed to find any scripture which you could even extrapolate support of this view.
I've give them. You merely are free to reject what you don't like. OK.
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And by the way we are saved by grace through that all important word FAITH which if I'm not mistaken requires that one believes right?
Please explain your view of all infants who die and the severely mentally handicapped, who will NEVER be able to come to the level of comprehension so they can believe? Do they all go to hell because they didn't believe?
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/23/2008 7:58:17 AM
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Machaira
Posts: 174
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
There is even an example of this in Scripture. Mark 1:6 says "And John was clothed with camel's hair..." The highlighted verb is passive voice. Check it out for yourself. OK, what are you going to do with this?
The problem with your use of Mark 1:6 is that the verb translated "was clothed" in the perfect tense. The perfect tense does not have a separate form for passive and middle voices -- which leaves it open to interpretation. The verb in Mark 1:6 could either be middle or passive depending on context. Some interlinears opt for middle. The aorist tense, which is the tense found in 2 Cor. 3, does not have this problem as it has a separate form for passive and middle, which means there is no doubt that it is passive. Sorry, the passive voice is simple not reflexive.
_____________________________
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake . . . Php 1:29
Check out my blog @ www.thomasboston.wordpress.com
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/23/2008 9:55:51 AM
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sunofone
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
And by the way we are saved by grace through that all important word FAITH which if I'm not mistaken requires that one believes right?
Exactly. And therefore if a child who was incapable of hearing the Gospel and of exercising faith were to die, that condition could not apply.
While God has not revealed how He justifies such individuals, His grace, mercy and justice shall be applied on the merits of the finished work of Christ, who is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.
God bless you Ezra,that last statement imho is the accursed thing that we are not to touch.Notice if you will that I never address who will go to hell,or be eternally separated from God.
It's not my place to do so.I don't know that God doesn't save all infants,whether by age or capacity.I don't claim to know.All I know is what he has given me to know by scripture is that he is active in choosing us,and he describes clearly how this process works.
I can not on account of emotional turmoil,blackmail the character and judgment of God,suggesting/demanding that he save the little innocent ones.As we are all guilty and none innocent.
I can however agree that I do not posses the full counsel of God,and therefore can be wrong about everything I think I see and know.and that in the end God can do whatever he is big enough to do.
But I can only teach what I can support with what he gave me,which is his word,and I don't find support for an age of accountability in his word.So I don't find support for the use of the word unaccountable.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/23/2008 10:05:43 AM
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sunofone
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quote:
Please explain your view of all infants who die and the severely mentally handicapped, who will NEVER be able to come to the level of comprehension so they can believe? Do they all go to hell because they didn't believe? We are saved through grace by faith.In any scripture you read you will find that belief is essential to salvation.If it were not so than all would truly be saved.Now you can change what scripture clearly say in the interest of infants and mentally handicapped just as the UR have,your call.As for me and my house I'm going with what I know God said and that is we have to believe in/on him in order to be saved.
So you tell me why I'm wrong to do so.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/23/2008 10:13:38 AM
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bob97
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quote:
The Bible states one is saved by grace through faith.
That is the bottom line, regardless of all the other arguments. Man is dead in sin and on his own accord cannot believe...so where does the belief come from.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/23/2008 7:14:07 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 552
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
The Bible states one is saved by grace through faith.
That is the bottom line, regardless of all the other arguments. Man is dead in sin and on his own accord cannot believe...so where does the belief come from.
Bob
Excellent question you point to Bob.The bible keeps saying we have to believe,if we believe then we're saved,if we believe God gives us the power to become sons of God,if we believe God removes blindness,etc...
How does one believe?Can any man on his own,that is independent of any action of God believe?So then how does one believe? Where do we get the capability to believe?
Faith comes by hearing,and hearing by the word of God.Now we know that faith can come from passive means as well.The silent witness of believers,I.E. The word of God expressed in action.Faith can come from the silent witness of the earth.I.E. everything within God's creative order.
All three sources point to God,yet only one is the door that leads to salvation,and that is Jesus,who is the personification of the written/spoken word.The logos.
So that even if one is convicted by the silent witness of believers,or the silent witness of the earth like Corneilus.One must still be brought to the spoken/written word to confirm/consummate belief.
So then how can one come through the door/Jesus if God does not take the initiative to show them the door?Jesus said he is the way the truth and the light,no man comes to the Father but by me.
Jesus said I am the door,by me if any man enter in,he shall be saved,and shall go in and out,and find pasture.I am the good shepherd;the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.I know my sheep,and am known of mine.My sheep know my voice.
When I call they answer and they respond to my voice because they know me.They don't do as Agrippa said thou almost persuaded me.No you can't almost know Jesus,or almost be his sheep.You either are his sheep and know him,or you're not,in which case he didn't die for you.Because he dies or he gives his life for his sheep.
So belief comes from God.Just as God chose Jacob in the womb before he had done anything right or wrong and rejected Esau.God also chooses his sheep.It is his doing,not ours.
Simply pit faith comes from God,it is a gift.For without faith it is impossible to please God.Any man not saved has no faith,and without faith it is impossible to please God.
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you:Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought,but rather think of yourself with sober judgment,in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/23/2008 7:15:42 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7881
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Machaira
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
There is even an example of this in Scripture. Mark 1:6 says "And John was clothed with camel's hair..." The highlighted verb is passive voice. Check it out for yourself. OK, what are you going to do with this?
The problem with your use of Mark 1:6 is that the verb translated "was clothed" in the perfect tense. The perfect tense does not have a separate form for passive and middle voices -- which leaves it open to interpretation. The verb in Mark 1:6 could either be middle or passive depending on context. Some interlinears opt for middle. The aorist tense, which is the tense found in 2 Cor. 3, does not have this problem as it has a separate form for passive and middle, which means there is no doubt that it is passive. Sorry, the passive voice is simple not reflexive.
My lexicons say "was clothed" is passive voice. Further, Greek scholars have noted that it was not uncommon for writers to use passive when middle voice was meant. Not too different from writers of English to ignore the rules.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/23/2008 7:30:18 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1960
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From: Kansas
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quote:
So belief comes from God.Just as God chose Jacob in the womb before he had done anything right or wrong and rejected Esau.God also chooses his sheep.It is his doing,not ours.
Hi sunofone...
Kind of like the Holy Spirit writing God's Torah into our hearts in the new covenant. The Bible doesn't say it requires any action on our part, the action is of the Spirit.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/23/2008 8:18:20 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 552
Joined: 10/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
So belief comes from God.Just as God chose Jacob in the womb before he had done anything right or wrong and rejected Esau.God also chooses his sheep.It is his doing,not ours.
Hi sunofone...
Kind of like the Holy Spirit writing God's Torah into our hearts in the new covenant. The Bible doesn't say it requires any action on our part, the action is of the Spirit.
Bob
Absolutely Bob.It is the Lord's doing,God bless Brother!
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/23/2008 8:43:47 PM
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Machaira
Posts: 174
Joined: 9/2/2006
From: Philadelphia, Pa.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
My lexicons say "was clothed" is passive voice.
Sorry. . . lexicons do not tell you how a verb is inflected in a particular verse.
Like I said, the perfect tense uses one form for both passive and middle voices. The aorist tense doesn't have this problem.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Further, Greek scholars have noted that it was not uncommon for writers to use passive when middle voice was meant. Not too different from writers of English to ignore the rules.
Names and quotes please.
_____________________________
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake . . . Php 1:29
Check out my blog @ www.thomasboston.wordpress.com
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/23/2008 9:25:53 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7881
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Machaira
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
My lexicons say "was clothed" is passive voice.
Sorry. . . lexicons do not tell you how a verb is inflected in a particular verse.
Like I said, the perfect tense uses one form for both passive and middle voices. The aorist tense doesn't have this problem.
Pardon me, but my lexicon's title is: The Analytical Greek Lexicon: consisting of an Alphabetical arrangement of every occurring inflexion of every word contained in the Greek New Testament Scriptures, with a Grammatical Analysis of Each Word, and Lexicographical Illustation fo the Meanings.
This is how the word that occurs in mark 1:6 is listed: nom sing. masc. part. perf. passive.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Further, Greek scholars have noted that it was not uncommon for writers to use passive when middle voice was meant. Not too different from writers of English to ignore the rules.
Names and quotes please.
Sorry, I didn't write them down. I was googling Greek grammar links and happened to note a number of Greek scholars say so. But, I encourage you to do some research as well.
Whether you do or not, doesn't matter. My lexicon, which consists of every occurring inflexion of every word in the NT Greek, analyzes each word. And it says the word in Mark 1:6 is passive. So, you are incorrect in your analysis of lexicons. Maybe yours doesn't tell you how a verb is inflected. But, mine does.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/23/2008 9:42:11 PM
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Machaira
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FreeGrace,
1. You should have been more specific because the average lexicon doesn't give you a complete parsing. I have an interlinear that lists the verb in question as middle voice. Click on the following link, scroll down to verse 6 and look --
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/mar1.pdf
I'm going to say this one more time. Mark 1:6 is controversial for the reason I already stated and is not relevant to our aorist tense verb found in 2 Cor 3. Deal with that verse and that tense and give up the red herring.
C. Distinguishing Middle From Passive
Only in the future and aorist tenses are there distinct forms for the passive and middle voice. In the present, imperfect, perfect, and pluperfect tenses, the middle and passive forms are identical. Although for purposes of parsing, many teachers of Greek allow students to list these as simply "middle/passive," for syntactical purposes a choice needs to be made. This is not always easy and needs to be done on a case-by-case basis.
—Greek Grammar Beyond The Basics - An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament - Daniel B. Walllace
2. I don't need to look up you phantom scholars because they do not exist. The burden of proof rests with you. In the mean time, here is a definition that you desparately need to learn --
In general it can be said that in the passive voice the subject is acted upon or receives the action expressed by the verb. No volition-nor even necessarily awareness of the action-is implied on the part of the subject. That is, the subject may or may not be aware, its volition may or may not be involved. But these things are not stressed when the passive is used.—Greek Grammar Beyond The Basics - An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament - Daniel B. Walllace
< Message edited by Machaira -- 6/23/2008 9:50:51 PM >
_____________________________
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake . . . Php 1:29
Check out my blog @ www.thomasboston.wordpress.com
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/24/2008 9:12:49 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7881
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Machaira
FreeGrace,
1. You should have been more specific because the average lexicon doesn't give you a complete parsing. I have an interlinear that lists the verb in question as middle voice. Click on the following link, scroll down to verse 6 and look --
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/mar1.pdf
I'm going to say this one more time. Mark 1:6 is controversial for the reason I already stated and is not relevant to our aorist tense verb found in 2 Cor 3. Deal with that verse and that tense and give up the red herring.
You may think it's a red herring if you want to. My analytical lexicon renders mark 1:6 passive. The text is obvious that middle was meant.
quote:
C. Distinguishing Middle From Passive
Only in the future and aorist tenses are there distinct forms for the passive and middle voice. In the present, imperfect, perfect, and pluperfect tenses, the middle and passive forms are identical. Although for purposes of parsing, many teachers of Greek allow students to list these as simply "middle/passive," for syntactical purposes a choice needs to be made. This is not always easy and needs to be done on a case-by-case basis.
—Greek Grammar Beyond The Basics - An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament - Daniel B. Walllace
Thanks for the reference. My Greek grammar text doesn't go into it that far.
quote:
2. I don't need to look up you phantom scholars because they do not exist. The burden of proof rests with you. In the mean time, here is a definition that you desparately need to learn --
It's too bad you think I am lying. Those scholars do exist on the web when googling Greek grammar topics.
quote:
In general it can be said that in the passive voice the subject is acted upon or receives the action expressed by the verb. No volition-nor even necessarily awareness of the action-is implied on the part of the subject. That is, the subject may or may not be aware, its volition may or may not be involved. But these things are not stressed when the passive is used.—Greek Grammar Beyond The Basics - An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament - Daniel B. Walllace
I already am fully aware of what the passive voice means, and thanks for the review. However, all that said, your point about 2 Cor 3:14 still is not taken, because of v.16, which is the key to understanding the passage. "but whenever a man turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away." The reason "their minds were hardened/blinded" was because they had not turned to the Lord; they weren't seeking Him nor paying attention or listening to Him. When they do, the veil is removed. It's that simple.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/24/2008 11:29:30 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1960
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From: Kansas
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FG…
I’m not trying to gang up on you so this is an honest question from the heart.
I don’t think that you are a free will person as such…so the questions continued to be this; if man is dead in sin and as the bible tell us:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Rom 3:11
How can a man have the veil removed unless the Father first removes the veil and grants faith?
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Joh 6:44
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. Joh 6:37
It is not my purpose to argue election here, the purpose is to understand how man turns to God.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/24/2008 3:10:49 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7881
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
FG…
I’m not trying to gang up on you so this is an honest question from the heart.
Bob, I don't mind anyone(s) "ganging up" on me. I'm quite used to it. And I don't consider your questions as trying to. 
quote:
I don’t think that you are a free will person as such…so the questions continued to be this; if man is dead in sin and as the bible tell us:
I am a free will person. I believe God created man with the innate ability to comprehend the gospel and either believe or reject it.
Also, man is born "dead in sin". I think Eph 2 is contrasting the position not function of the unbeliever who is dead IN sin with the believer who is alive IN Christ. Though many consider "spiritually dead" to mean unable to hear, respond or understand the gospel, the generally understood meaning of physically dead is the separation of soul and body, which no one denies. To even consider "lack of function" as the meaning of "spiritually dead" is disproven by Adam, who, as a newly unregenerate man, and spiritually dead, responded to our Lord in the Garden.
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There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Rom 3:11
How can a man have the veil removed unless the Father first removes the veil and grants faith?
I think the passage is quite clear: when a man turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. If God removes the veil and grants faith, the verse is in error. It would have to say something like: "only when God removes the veil, will a man turn to the Lord". But it specifically reverses the reformed order of things.
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No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Joh 6:44
This verse says nothing about the Father not drawing anyone. It only speaks of those who have come have been drawn. I don't think we can just assume the opposite: that those who didn't come weren't drawn.
I think there is a legitimate sense of drawing found in Romans 1 because we know that God has made Himself evident to men, so that no one has any excuse for not recognizing and honoring Him. From the life of Cornelius, we see an excellent example of an unbeliever who did just that: recognized and honored God. I think he was drawn to God by what Romans 1 speaks about: the fact that God has made Himself known to men. That's why no one has an excuse for not recognizing and honoring Him.
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All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. Joh 6:37
From this verse I see a clear promise of eternal security. Whosoever comes to Jesus will never be cast out. Amen. I also see that the Father gives all believers to Jesus.
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It is not my purpose to argue election here, the purpose is to understand how man turns to God.
Good question, Bob. I think Romans 1 is helpful. Even though "everything that is known about God is evident to men, because God made it evident to them", some suppress the truth of that evidence. iow, just like fools, who "say in their heart, there is no God" (Psa 14 and 53), those who suppress that evidence or truth are "turned over to their own lusts". How? By their "foolish hearts". This directly links those who suppress the truth with the fools of Psa 14 and 53.
Cornelius is an example of an unbeliever who didn't suppress the truth; rather, he recognized and honored God (God fearing and continual prayer). The result of his "seeking God" was that he found Him, just as promised in 2 Chron 15:2, Heb 11:6b and Acts 17:27.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/24/2008 5:12:24 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 552
Joined: 10/11/2007
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quote:
quote:
I don’t think that you are a free will person as such…so the questions continued to be this; if man is dead in sin and as the bible tell us:
I am a free will person. I believe God created man with the innate ability to comprehend the gospel and either believe or reject it.
Am I missing something here? Didn't you say here that you were not freewill.See your post here where you said it:
FreeGrace
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btw, I am not "freewill". Although I am convinced it is found throughout the Bible.
So again am I mistaken what you are,or what you believe?I also wanted you to know that I have nothing further to add to this topic at this time,so unless you have some relevant question for me,that God impresses upon my heart to address,you'll probably not hear from me again on this topic,although I am confused about what you believe,or if you've been playing some sort of mind game all this time 
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/24/2008 5:38:55 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
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We are saved through faith is an accurate statement.
We are saved by grace is an accurate statement.
We are saved by grace through faith would also be accurate.
We are saved by grace alone through faith alone...not so accurate.
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Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/24/2008 6:52:56 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
quote:
quote:
I don’t think that you are a free will person as such…so the questions continued to be this; if man is dead in sin and as the bible tell us:
I am a free will person. I believe God created man with the innate ability to comprehend the gospel and either believe or reject it.
Am I missing something here? Didn't you say here that you were not freewill.See your post here where you said it:
FreeGrace
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btw, I am not "freewill". Although I am convinced it is found throughout the Bible.
So again am I mistaken what you are,or what you believe?I also wanted you to know that I have nothing further to add to this topic at this time,so unless you have some relevant question for me,that God impresses upon my heart to address,you'll probably not hear from me again on this topic,although I am confused about what you believe,or if you've been playing some sort of mind game all this time
 Wow, can things be taken out of context!! In that post, which you forgot to note which # it was, but you are forgiven, I was called or addressed as "freewill". But, that is not my name, as you can see. My name is FreeGrace, since God's grace is free.
I am absolutely convinced that God created man with the innate ability to comprehend and either believe or reject the gospel message, and that such decision (or whatever you want to call it) is done freely.
Thanks for letting me clarify.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/24/2008 6:54:25 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues
We are saved through faith is an accurate statement.
We are saved by grace is an accurate statement.
We are saved by grace through faith would also be accurate.
We are saved by grace alone through faith alone...not so accurate.
If you would be so kind, could you elaborate on why your last statement would be "not so accurate"? Thanks.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/24/2008 7:47:38 PM
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Machaira
Posts: 174
Joined: 9/2/2006
From: Philadelphia, Pa.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
However, all that said, your point about 2 Cor 3:14 still is not taken, because of v.16, which is the key to understanding the passage. "but whenever a man turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away." The reason "their minds were hardened/blinded" was because they had not turned to the Lord; they weren't seeking Him nor paying attention or listening to Him. When they do, the veil is removed. It's that simple.
There's a fatal flaw in your reasoning here. How does a man muster up faith and turn to the Lord with a hardened mind and a veiled heart, when a hardened mind and a veiled heart would only serve to prevent such a turning in the first place?
I maintain that verse 16 is descriptive not prescriptive. Turning to the Lord doesn't prescribe the method of removing the veil. Turning to the Lord and having the veil removed describes two simultaneous God-initiated aspects of regeneration. In other words, God must make the first move, because the one who has been hardened simply cannot. If you insist on your current view, then you are locked into a conundrum, which I'll state again --
How does a man muster up faith and turn to the Lord with a hardened mind and a veiled heart, when a hardened mind and a veiled heart would only serve to prevent such a turning in the first place?
_____________________________
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake . . . Php 1:29
Check out my blog @ www.thomasboston.wordpress.com
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/24/2008 8:39:29 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7881
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Machaira
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
However, all that said, your point about 2 Cor 3:14 still is not taken, because of v.16, which is the key to understanding the passage. "but whenever a man turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away." The reason "their minds were hardened/blinded" was because they had not turned to the Lord; they weren't seeking Him nor paying attention or listening to Him. When they do, the veil is removed. It's that simple.
There's a fatal flaw in your reasoning here. How does a man muster up faith and turn to the Lord with a hardened mind and a veiled heart, when a hardened mind and a veiled heart would only serve to prevent such a turning in the first place?
The only "fatal flaw" that I see is your ignoring the sequence: when a man turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. If your view were correct, we would read the example I gave, which you have chosen to ignore, as well.
quote:
I maintain that verse 16 is descriptive not prescriptive. Turning to the Lord doesn't prescribe the method of removing the veil.
OK, that's fine. But Scripture maintains that it does prescribe the method. What do you think "when a man turns to the Lord" means? It precedes the phrase "then the veil is taken away". Why don't you think the veil is taken away on the basis of a man turning to the Lord?
quote:
Turning to the Lord and having the veil removed describes two simultaneous God-initiated aspects of regeneration. In other words, God must make the first move, because the one who has been hardened simply cannot. If you insist on your current view, then you are locked into a conundrum, which I'll state again --
How does a man muster up faith and turn to the Lord with a hardened mind and a veiled heart, when a hardened mind and a veiled heart would only serve to prevent such a turning in the first place?
I have no conundrum. Romans 1 is very clear that those who suppress the truth are "given over to their own lusts". iow, God leaves them alone since they aren't seeking Him. Cornelius is an example of an unbeliever who didn't suppress the truth that God has made evident to mankind and actively sought Him through reverence and prayer. The result was that God answered his prayers in the form of Peter and the gospel message. From what Peter recalled from his meeting with Cornelius, noted in Acts 11:14, it appears that Cornelius had prayed for salvation, or, at least, more revelation of God. My point here is that God has already taken the first move by making evident Himself to mankind, so that no one has an excuse for not recognizing and honoring Him, as Cornelius demonstrated.
Your choice of "terms" about "mustering up faith" is interesting. The Bible is clear; man believes from the heart. Where do you find any passage that clearly states your position; that God chose who would believe? If that were true, there should be at least one clear passage on that.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/24/2008 8:51:44 PM
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Machaira
Posts: 174
Joined: 9/2/2006
From: Philadelphia, Pa.
Status: offline
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FreeGrace,
You failed to answer my question.
How does a man muster up faith and turn to the Lord with a hardened mind and a veiled heart, when a hardened mind and a veiled heart would only serve to prevent such a turning in the first place?
_____________________________
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake . . . Php 1:29
Check out my blog @ www.thomasboston.wordpress.com
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/24/2008 10:31:46 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
Posts: 557
Joined: 1/11/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues
We are saved through faith is an accurate statement.
We are saved by grace is an accurate statement.
We are saved by grace through faith would also be accurate.
We are saved by grace alone through faith alone...not so accurate.
If you would be so kind, could you elaborate on why your last statement would be "not so accurate"? Thanks.
The "alone" makes a world of difference. "Alone" does not hold all the truths that we are expounded upon with in the Bible. How do we know what saving faith is? Faith in what or what...? Grace from who? Grace on who?
See the "alone" becomes a stumbling block. So much so that I do not see how the statement "We are saved by grace alone through faith alone." was ever concocted as a truly accurate statement.
Tying this in to the "un-accountable" again I point to the fact that NO ONE will be held un-accountable. Rather ALL will be held accountable for what they have done with what God has blessed them with based on their capacity of faith. (my opinion is we ALL have the same capacity for faith, the problem is how WE measure it.)
The old adage that everyone exercises faith when they sit down in a chair. We all have an equal capacity of faith in sitting down in a chair. I don't think that it is any different when it comes to the "capacity of faith" to believe in God. The action of sitting down in the chair doesn't cause the chair to hold any of us, but if we didn't exercise our faith in that chair holding us what good would the chair be? And it get's easier to trust the apparatus called a chair as we continually exercise faith in that apparatus.
I can't think of a person on earth who has EVER prayed to the living God and He has not answered. Therefore it seems that everyone we KNOW has the ability to pray has seen God answer prayer.
_____________________________
My New Blog site
Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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