Born Again Means Actually Being Born Again (Full Version)

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no1nose -> Born Again Means Actually Being Born Again (6/11/2008 3:51:18 PM)

We inherit eternal life when we are born again. The words “born again” are better translated as being conceived again. When we were conceived the first time it was a sexual union between our mother and father. From our mother we inherited certain traits and from our father we inherited other traits. Being born again is similar to the way that Jesus was born. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost and so are we when we are born again. Being born again we form a union between ourselves and Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit. In this union God becomes our true and eternal father.

From this union we inherit the qualities of Jesus and grow to become like him. We inherit eternal life because Jesus rose from the dead and that is a quality of his being. When Jesus lives within us there is a part of us that has already died and has overcome death.

When Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden we were all in them; in them waiting to be born. Because we were in them when they sinned we are counted as having sinned also. When Jesus died on the cross he died alone none of us were they too shared his suffering. However because he lives in us this implies that we are a part of him too, just as you were once physically a part of your parents who you came from. We were not a part of Jesus when he died on the cross but when Jesus lives in us God counts us as having been there by adopting us:

But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Galatians 4:5

When God looks upon Jesus on the cross he see us in him. In Jesus our sins are paid for as though we had actually been in him when he died. And in him we will raise from the dead just as he did:

For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. I Corinthians 15:22

And

And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. Corinthians 15:45

From a practical point of view Jesus is the perfect person. If everyone was like Jesus then the world’s problems would be solved. Christianity is a religion that different from all others. In Islam and Judaism its member are encouraged to follow a set of commandments. We are encouraged to accept Jesus into our lives and be born again. It is really just that simple..

Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3



JimboFletch -> RE: Born Again Means Actually Being Born Again (6/11/2008 3:54:49 PM)

Do you have a question or are you looking for a critique?



Bluethread -> RE: Born Again Means Actually Being Born Again (6/11/2008 4:35:22 PM)

Amen. JimboFletch



no1nose -> RE: Born Again Means Actually Being Born Again (6/11/2008 5:50:12 PM)

quote:

Do you have a question or are you looking for a critique?


Neither really but thanks anyway.



earthless -> RE: Born Again Means Actually Being Born Again (6/11/2008 5:53:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: no1nose

quote:

Do you have a question or are you looking for a critique?


Neither really but thanks anyway.


So you just posted for the sake of posting?



no1nose -> RE: Born Again Means Actually Being Born Again (6/11/2008 6:05:24 PM)

No, but I think you are.



Bluethread -> RE: Born Again Means Actually Being Born Again (6/11/2008 6:33:24 PM)

I could easily continue this line of response. However, seriously, I believe Yeshua(Jesus) was telling Nicodemus that it is not enough to be born of Avraham. A child of Avraham receives a sign of the promise on the eighth day of his life. But the sign of the promise is not the promise. One must live in accordance with the promise, as Ha Ruach Adonai(The Spirit of the Lord) directs.



evry1needsgod -> RE: Born Again Means Actually Being Born Again (6/11/2008 6:42:18 PM)

quote:

No, but I think you are.


Ok, so what is your reason for posting this?



no1nose -> RE: Born Again Means Actually Being Born Again (6/11/2008 7:24:11 PM)

quote:

Ok, so what is your reason for posting this?


So someone would read it? Can we move along a bit . . maybe to what it actually says?[;)]



Bluethread -> RE: Born Again Means Actually Being Born Again (6/11/2008 7:44:43 PM)

Rather, than continue in this tit for tat badgering, why don't you respond to my serious response?



Ps103 -> RE: Born Again Means Actually Being Born Again (6/11/2008 8:40:27 PM)

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evry1needsgod -> RE: Born Again Means Actually Being Born Again (6/11/2008 9:37:45 PM)

Haha Ps103. That made me laugh, because there is no topic for us to be off of.

No1nose:

Your post is correct. The topic of your post is summed up with Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus. Praise God He has given us a way to be saved!



Godhead -> RE: Born Again Means Actually Being Born Again (6/11/2008 10:00:29 PM)

To be born again, means you are born from about. Above from a heavenly birth. Before you are born again you are living by the dictates of the flesh, earthly man. Being born again is the knew life we have in Christ, that follows the spirit. (Not Supernatural). Today that change comes about by hearing the gospel and believing it with a true and sincere conviction. Signs that will follow is an inner change of the heart. A heart that was once in darkness now has the light of truth. People who are not born again walk in darkness. So the unsaved walk in darkness and the save walk in the light.



no1nose -> RE: Born Again Means Actually Being Born Again (6/12/2008 4:38:26 PM)

We inherit eternal life when we are born again. When we were conceived the first time it was a sexual union between our mother and father. From our mother we inherited certain traits and from our father we inherited other traits. Being born again is similar to the way that Jesus was born. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost and so are we when we are born again. Being born again we form a union between ourselves and Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit. In this union God becomes our true and eternal father.

From this union we inherit the qualities of Jesus and grow to become like him. We inherit eternal life because Jesus rose from the dead and that is a quality of his being. When Jesus lives within us there is a part of us that has already died and has overcome death.

When Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden we were all in them. In them waiting to be born. Because we were in them when they sinned we are counted as having sinned also. When Jesus died on the cross he died alone none of us were they too shared his suffering. However because he lives in us this implies that we are a part of him too. Just as you were once physically a part of your parents who you came from. We were not a part of Jesus when he died on the cross but when Jesus lives in us God counts us as having been there by adopting us:

But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Galatians 4:5


When God looks upon Jesus on the cross he see us in him. In Jesus our sins are paid for as though we had actually been in him when he died. And in him we will raise from the dead just as he did:

For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
I Corinthians 15:22
And

And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. Corinthians 15:45



Bluethread -> RE: Born Again Means Actually Being Born Again (6/12/2008 5:21:39 PM)

no1nose:

I agree with the basic principles you have drawn fron the Scriptures. However, I think you might be streaching the analogy a bit. I think the implications you make seem to place phylosophy and metaphysics over the context of the Scriptures and culture with which Nicodemus was familiar.



no1nose -> RE: Born Again Means Actually Being Born Again (6/13/2008 4:08:15 PM)

Thanks for your post

I hope that I am not pushing things too far.

When Adam and Eve disobeyed God we were in them waiting to be born. We were there when it happened and even though we did not disobey God ourselves we still ended up suffering the consequences of what they did. In this case it was a bad thing but being “in” someone when they do something right can be a good thing for us. For example in the book of Hebrews there is Levi:

“One might even say that Levi . ., paid the tenth through Abraham, because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor. Heb 7:9-10.

What is interesting about Levi is that he was counted as having paid because he was “in” Abraham (waiting to be born) when Abraham paid. This is important because we are reconciled with God by being "in" this second Adam.



hellohellohi -> RE: Born Again Means Actually Being Born Again (7/3/2008 9:10:09 AM)

Hello,
Just checking up on you some more there no1nose!

I am curious from this quote
quote:

From this union we inherit the qualities of Jesus and grow to become like him.
, and from some of the things that you like to talk about, what you think sin is. I see you are also interested in inheritance of original sin -- but what then is it? DNA?



no1nose -> RE: Born Again Means Actually Being Born Again (7/3/2008 9:07:13 PM)

quote:

am curious from this quote quote:

From this union we inherit the qualities of Jesus and grow to become like him., and from some of the things that you like to talk about, what you think sin is. I see you are also interested in inheritance of original sin -- but what then is it? DNA?


Here some of my personal thinking on sin:

Buddhists see life as a matter of cause and effect. They call it Karma. You can create good Karma by right living. If you do so then positive things will return to you. If live in a selfish and destructively then you will create bad Karma and negative things will return to you. In some ways this idea of Karma is a more accurate definition of what the Bible means by sin than the stereotypes promoted by the popular media.

We live in a time of moral relativism. The philosophy of our time does not believe in absolute values. There are no objective rights and wrongs, all values systems are man made constructs that people impose on each other. In the media sin is associated mainly with sex and alcohol or is an arbitrary list of things that God doesn’t like. Today the idea of sin is considered judgmental and unhealthy. People who believe in the notion of sin are often portrayed as weak willed individuals with deep emotional needs. The world teaches relative morality and what is wrong for me might be perfectly OK for you.

Buddhism is similar to Christianity but does not have the idea of forgiveness of sins. In Buddhism there are only consequences for ones actions. Christianity acknowledges consequences but also recognizes that “the sun shines on the good as well as the bad”. There is something more complex going on in life than just cause and effect. There is cause and effect but things also happen by chance and there is also forgiveness. Sometimes the good suffer and the bad prosper.

The word sin actually means to “fall short” or “to miss” like shooting an arrow at a target. This is true but there are reasons why God hates sin.

For the wages of sin is death. . . Romans 6:23

Sin is something that people may do that then causes disorder. Disorder destroys life and ends with death. God hates sin because it destroys life. Once we sin and create disorder then things are really beyound our control. The disorder we create can harm ourselves or it can lead to a chain of events that harms someone completely innocent.

Many ancient peoples saw the world as struggle between order and chaos. Disorder was caused by sin and would always result in the loss of life. Sacrifice appears to have been a way of controlling disorder and death. By channelling the disorder onto an innocent animal then order could be restored.

What is DNA? - Will have to pass on that one for now. What are your thoughts?



Godhead -> RE: Born Again Means Actually Being Born Again (7/3/2008 9:53:13 PM)

You cannot put new wine into old wine skins. To be born again you have to become a new creature, with the old life and its knowledge (Old wine) changed into a person with only the knowledge that Jesus died for their sins. The new convert is like a baby, without any knowledge of God. So we all start out as new wine, put into new wineskins. We begin to grow in this knew knowledge gradually, until we become old wine again, matured, but this time in the knowledge of God. We have to let go of our old knowledge, (Of the world) We cannot carry that with us into the new life, (New wine skins) New wine is put into new wine skins. So everybody starts off as new wine, that will begin to mature over time. It is a change of mind, and a change of heart, on that is no longer controled by the knowledge of the world but by the knowledge of God.



hellohellohi -> RE: Born Again Means Actually Being Born Again (7/4/2008 9:03:21 AM)

I am pretty interested in what you have to say on this:

quote:

The word sin actually means to “fall short” or “to miss” like shooting an arrow at a target.


However, I think I disagree with aspects. I think sin is active rebellion against God. While it may be that we fall short, I believe it is by choice. You seemed to have left that out anyway. Otherwise I can largely agree with what you say.

Again, I am not sure why you generally answer in a circumspect way.

DNA I mean unsurprisingly as the stuff of hereditary information, uhhh.

Like, I said, I perceive contradictions in what you are saying -- but this perhaps only because I tend to read a lot into what people say. It might be more efficient if you expand or restate more precisely some of your earlier points before you raise new premises or concepts like Buddhism. Buddhism might be interesting to discuss, but why not start a new thread?

I was trying to ask if being born again affected your DNA, or, if not that, whether it is physical as well as spiritual.



no1nose -> RE: Born Again Means Actually Being Born Again (7/4/2008 6:43:03 PM)

quote:

was trying to ask if being born again affected your DNA, or, if not that, whether it is physical as well as spiritual.


I believe that a new creation will tranform our physical beings.



hellohellohi -> RE: Born Again Means Actually Being Born Again (7/5/2008 1:30:24 PM)

thanks no1nose,

My only questions now are
1) To what extent do you think the concept of Original Sin and heritability of sin is compatible with personal culpability for sin? and
2) To what extent is the transformation of salvation the result of self-exertion of the will?

Otherwise, I think it is interesting to consider being born again as a physical transformation.



Bluethread -> RE: Born Again Means Actually Being Born Again (7/6/2008 3:04:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: no1nose

Thanks for your post

I hope that I am not pushing things too far.

When Adam and Eve disobeyed God we were in them waiting to be born. We were there when it happened and even though we did not disobey God ourselves we still ended up suffering the consequences of what they did. In this case it was a bad thing but being “in” someone when they do something right can be a good thing for us. For example in the book of Hebrews there is Levi:

“One might even say that Levi . ., paid the tenth through Abraham, because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor. Heb 7:9-10.

What is interesting about Levi is that he was counted as having paid because he was “in” Abraham (waiting to be born) when Abraham paid. This is important because we are reconciled with God by being "in" this second Adam.


In Heb 7, the author is making a metaphor, an aside to point out that worship of Adonai is what is most important and the levitical priesthood just the means of accomplishing that. If he wished to be techincal, He would have pointed out that Levi did not give a tithe beacause Levi was the tithe. Levi was taken as the firstborn tithe(not a literal tenth) in place of those who were saved from death on the first Pesach.

Context is important here. What you are proposing is similar to Nicodemus' inquiry about returning to the womb to be born again. It has nothing to do with the point. One does not inherit salvation from being born of Avraham and one does not inherit sin from being born of Adam. One is born with the propensity to sin(rebellion) through ones DNA from Adam, some are also born with the propensity to seek Adonai from Avraham. However, if one does not act on those propensities one does not recieve the result. If we were able not to rebell, as Yeshua is able to do, then we would not be subject to Adonai's judgement. By the same token, sons of Avraham who fail to act upon their propensity to seek Adoanai are not saved. So, being born the first time with Avraham's propensity to seek Adonai is not enough. Nicodemus needed to be born again not with a change in DNA, but a change in motivation. The propensity to rebell from Adam can only be overcome by Adonai overriding our DNA propensity and giving us the spirit of obedience.

So, at least in this life, Adonai doesn't change our DNA, but gives us the power to focus on the good characteristics we inherit(Avraham) and override those bad impulses that we also inherit(Adam). The problem with looking at these thing in sceintific terms is that science only recognizes nature vs. nurture. It ignores inspiration. That is the new birth, the influence of Adonai's spirit.



no1nose -> RE: Born Again Means Actually Being Born Again (7/6/2008 5:56:25 PM)

quote:

To what extent do you think the concept of Original Sin and heritability of sin is compatible with personal culpability for sin? a


Jesus was without sin but still was baptized. I think this was for original sin that all humans have. Personal sin is was you choose to do wrong.

quote:

In Heb 7, the author is making a metaphor, an aside to point out that worship of Adonai is what is most important and the levitical priesthood just the means of accomplishing that.


Metaphor or not Levi didn't have to pay. Is there another reason why this was the case?



Godhead -> RE: Born Again Means Actually Being Born Again (7/7/2008 11:05:35 PM)

I thought that being baptized was for our example. Even though He knew no sin, He came like unto sinfull flesh.

You must be borne again (John 3:7) that means its important. Our first birth was earthly by the womb of our mother, our second birth must be heavenly, by the word of God (1 Peter 1:23) There is much ado in the church today about socializing, singing, feasting and engaging in other activities. All off these things appear to be fellowshipping in the Lord but truly they are “Much ado about nothing.” There can be no fellowship without the light of God’s word in our hearts ( 1 John 1:5-7) Christ shows us that most important way in Luke 10:38-42. Mary chose to sit at Christ feet and listen. Our most important business is to seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness (Matthew 6:33). What greater business can we be undertaking then seeking the Lord with all of our heart. It profits us nothing if we gain the whole world but lose our souls, (Matthew 7:31-23 and Jeremiah 6:10). A mans life does not consist in what he owns, but in our Lord Jesus Christ. “I am the bread of life!” AMEN!



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