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RE: The Issues - 6/7/2008 3:51:44 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
As for immigration, I have to go to the Bible. It commands us to welcome the alien and the stranger, and does not qualify said statement. Neither of the major candidates does this, but that's where I am on the issue.
No it does not... Given the bible's context regarding obeying the laws of the land there is no way one can twist a verse thats speaks of the treatment of strangers with the issue of people breaking the law...
John
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RE: The Issues - 6/7/2008 4:20:18 PM
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Lizahana
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
As for immigration, I have to go to the Bible. It commands us to welcome the alien and the stranger, and does not qualify said statement. Neither of the major candidates does this, but that's where I am on the issue.
No it does not... Given the bible's context regarding obeying the laws of the land there is no way one can twist a verse thats speaks of the treatment of strangers with the issue of people breaking the law...
John
Well, I think PhunkD is right - are you not supposed to welcome those who do not have much into your house? God welcomes all, period.
Besides, what does it say on the statue of Liberty, John?
Peace and God bless,
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RE: The Issues - 6/7/2008 4:24:21 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7373
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Well, I think PhunkD is right - are you not supposed to welcome those who do not have much into your house? God welcomes all, period.
Besides, what does it say on the statue of Liberty, John?
I think there is a big difference between welcoming someone into one's house, and having laws that say anyone can go into your house anytime they choose to do so.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: The Issues - 6/7/2008 4:31:46 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4377
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
Well, I think PhunkD is right - are you not supposed to welcome those who do not have much into your house?
Depends.... The bible says not to welcome those who don't bring the gospel of Christ into your home...
It doesn't say it's ok to break the law because you don't have much...
Btw... Given you believe it's lawful to murder the child of a rape I would believe you would avoid matters of the law and treatment of others in regards to the bible...
quote:
God welcomes all, period.
God doesn't believe it's ok for anyone to break the laws of the land... If you can show that it's wrong to control one's borders by all means post it...
quote:
Besides, what does it say on the statue of Liberty, John?
Last I checked the laws of the land were not written on the Statue of Liberty...
John
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RE: The Issues - 6/7/2008 4:37:22 PM
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PhunkD
Posts: 208
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
As for immigration, I have to go to the Bible. It commands us to welcome the alien and the stranger, and does not qualify said statement. Neither of the major candidates does this, but that's where I am on the issue.
No it does not... Given the bible's context regarding obeying the laws of the land there is no way one can twist a verse thats speaks of the treatment of strangers with the issue of people breaking the law...
John
The command to welcome the alien and the stranger WAS the law of the land.
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RE: The Issues - 6/7/2008 4:38:39 PM
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PhunkD
Posts: 208
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Well, I think PhunkD is right - are you not supposed to welcome those who do not have much into your house? God welcomes all, period.
Besides, what does it say on the statue of Liberty, John?
I think there is a big difference between welcoming someone into one's house, and having laws that say anyone can go into your house anytime they choose to do so.
You don't need those laws if you are already welcoming every alien and stranger.
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RE: The Issues - 6/7/2008 4:41:13 PM
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PhunkD
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One last thought. It doesn't matter what the current law is--we can change the laws to reflect what God is calling us to do.
I don't hear you defending abortion by saying "it's the law of the land." That would be silly! When there is an unjust law, we should work to change it.
Given that God calls us to welcome the alien and the stranger, a law that keeps them out is, to put it plainly, unjust and unbiblical.
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RE: The Issues - 6/7/2008 5:07:37 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4377
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
As for immigration, I have to go to the Bible. It commands us to welcome the alien and the stranger, and does not qualify said statement. Neither of the major candidates does this, but that's where I am on the issue.
No it does not... Given the bible's context regarding obeying the laws of the land there is no way one can twist a verse thats speaks of the treatment of strangers with the issue of people breaking the law...
John
The command to welcome the alien and the stranger WAS the law of the land.
The verse doesn't allow for the stranger/alien to break the law to enter the law... There is a lawful manner in how one is suppose to enter the land...
John
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RE: The Issues - 6/7/2008 5:14:07 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
One last thought. It doesn't matter what the current law is--we can change the laws to reflect what God is calling us to do.
I don't hear you defending abortion by saying "it's the law of the land." That would be silly! When there is an unjust law, we should work to change it.
Given that God calls us to welcome the alien and the stranger, a law that keeps them out is, to put it plainly, unjust and unbiblical.
There is nothing in the verse that would equate that controlled borders are unlawful in the eyes of God... The verse speaks to the treatment of strangers in one's land... If you believe that somehow includes the concept of open borders do you have scripture to support that concept?
John
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 6/7/2008 5:22:46 PM >
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RE: The Issues - 6/7/2008 6:36:54 PM
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PhunkD
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How can one welcome somebody and keep them out at the same time?
There is nothing in all of the Bible that says borders should be controlled.
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RE: The Issues - 6/7/2008 6:37:14 PM
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saved9201
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jeff_from_Kentucky
Saved9201, I for one do not listen to talk radio and I very rarely watch Fox News because they are too liberal. Except for the global warming and Iraq issues, the opinions I have stated are what I have believed for more than 25 years. As far as Iraq is concerned, I am retired military, which is why I have the stance I do on that issue. For global warming, well, the ones screaming gloom and doom about that are the same wackos that were screaming gloom and doom about global cooling in the 1970s.
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2. Iraq - If we withdraw now we will be betraying the troops and everything they have fought and died for. Period! Let the troops finish their job.
I'm retired military too, and I have a son in Iraq at this moment. I also live near Fort Gordon, GA and I go there quite often. I have yet to talk to one soldier or dependent of a soldier who has deployed over and over and over again to the Middle East, who told me if he/she didn't get to go back, or if their loved ones didnt' get to go back, before the "job" was done, they'd feel "betrayed". That includes me and my wife, who can't wait until my son returns from his tour in July. And as far as your statement, "Let the troops finish their job." Well, okay, maybe you can explain what exactly that "job" is. That way, we'll know when they've finished it.
"But if you know - every mistake we've made up to this point, there's no stated goal. There's no definition of success. All these important things. There's no exit strategy. One mistake after another. Why would you go in deeper when we have not been successful up to this point? That seems to me to be folly."-
Who said that? Conservative talk show host Sean Hannity, April 1, 1999, on committing troops to Kosovo. But Clinton, a dirty stinking unpatriotic libral, was president then. Now Hannity's for this fiasco in Iraq. See any inconsistency? I don't, cause like I said, these guys aren't interested in facts, they're just here to entertain.
- Julius
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RE: The Issues - 6/7/2008 6:57:42 PM
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Jeff_from_Kentucky
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Julius, how can you not know what the job is? The job is to develop Iraq into a stable Democracy. That takes time. Remember, the colonies declared Independence from England in 1776 and didn't get a peace treaty signed until 1783. Then, it took another 5 years until 1788 to get a Constitution. That's 12 years of instability before our present form of government took shape and was put into place. 13 if you count the fact that George Washington didn't take office until April of 1789. Even then, things were not immediately stable. Iraq has only had 5 years to try to do what took us more than a dozen years to do. And we didn't have terrorists flooding across our borders trying to disrupt everything as they do.
This type of thing takes time but everybody today wants instant gratification. Real life doesn't work that way.
As far as Sean Hanity is concerned, as I said before I very rarely ever watch Fox News and I do not listen to talk radio so what he says makes no difference to me and has no influence on me. I don't care what he says. It means nothing to me.
< Message edited by Jeff_from_Kentucky -- 6/7/2008 7:19:24 PM >
_____________________________
<< Frank Seamans and my son Jeffrey - September, 2007
"For me to live is Christ and to die is gain." Philippians 1:21
Dispatchers tell cops where to go!
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RE: The Issues - 6/7/2008 7:22:51 PM
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Lizahana
Posts: 1048
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Well, I think PhunkD is right - are you not supposed to welcome those who do not have much into your house? God welcomes all, period.
Besides, what does it say on the statue of Liberty, John?
I think there is a big difference between welcoming someone into one's house, and having laws that say anyone can go into your house anytime they choose to do so.
Well, show me where the Bible is this specific, Jack. I was under the impression that God welcomes all, anytime. On top of this, I was under the impression that we were supposed to spread the gospel to everyone, even non-believers. And I would think that you'd want to especially spread the gospel to non-believers, because, of course, the believers, well, already believe.
Peace and God bless,
< Message edited by Lizahana -- 6/7/2008 7:39:30 PM >
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RE: The Issues - 6/7/2008 7:32:22 PM
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Lizahana
Posts: 1048
Joined: 4/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
Well, I think PhunkD is right - are you not supposed to welcome those who do not have much into your house?
quote:
Depends.... The bible says not to welcome those who don't bring the gospel of Christ into your home...
It doesn't say it's ok to break the law because you don't have much...
Btw... Given you believe it's lawful to murder the child of a rape I would believe you would avoid matters of the law and treatment of others in regards to the bible...
Well, I thought you were supposed to try and spread the gospel to non-believers as well - or are you saying that we are not to try to spread the gospel to those who don't believe?
Well, John, I said that I would not force a girl who has been raped by her father to give birth to her sister - nice of you to bring that up in this thread! And nice of you to not include the part of the father raping his own daughter.
BTW, do you think I could just include this on my signature - the fact that I will not force a girl to who's been raped by her father, to give birth to her sister - do you think I should just include this on my signature? That way, you wouldn't have to bring it up each time, on any thread that I'm on, even if it's not about abortion? Would that save you some typing? Actually, I think I will - and direct it at you...to remind you, and save you some typing...
quote:
God welcomes all, period.
quote:
God doesn't believe it's ok for anyone to break the laws of the land... If you can show that it's wrong to control one's borders by all means post it...
Again, I thought we were supposed to spread the gospel to non-believers....please correct me if I'm wrong.
quote:
Besides, what does it say on the statue of Liberty, John?
quote:
Last I checked the laws of the land were not written on the Statue of Liberty...
John
Well, if it didn't say what it did, you and I probably would not be here, now would we? I mean, unless you want US to become a closed society...
Peace and God bless,
< Message edited by Lizahana -- 6/7/2008 7:55:39 PM >
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RE: The Issues - 6/7/2008 7:39:40 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4377
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
How can one welcome somebody and keep them out at the same time?
Is your front door open 24/7?
quote:
There is nothing in all of the Bible that says borders should be controlled.
The existence of border implies some amount of control... There is no verse in the bible that prohibits a nation from controlling its borders... People are LAWFULLY welcome to visit the United States...
John
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RE: The Issues - 6/7/2008 7:45:27 PM
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Lizahana
Posts: 1048
Joined: 4/20/2005
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quote:
There is nothing in all of the Bible that says borders should be controlled.
quote:
The existence of border implies some amount of control... There is no verse in the bible that prohibits a nation from controlling its borders... People are LAWFULLY welcome to visit the United States...
John
Say, John - do you think it's ok for people to come and work here on the guest worker program - in jobs that Americans plainly do now want - but then they have to return back to their country?
Just wondering...
Peace and God bless,
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RE: The Issues - 6/7/2008 7:54:05 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4377
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
Say, John - do you think it's ok for people to come and work here on the guest worker program - in jobs that Americans plainly do now want - but then they have to return back to their country?
Just wondering...
I have no issue with what is deemed lawful and if people come here and work and agree to the terms they are bound by them...
John
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RE: The Issues - 6/7/2008 7:59:36 PM
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Lizahana
Posts: 1048
Joined: 4/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
Well, I thought you were supposed to try and spread the gospel to non-believers as well - or are you saying that we are not to try to spread the gospel to those who don't believe?
quote:
What does the above have to do with people breaking the law? I wasn't aware that the idea of controlling the border is tied the spread of the gospel... That's quite the reach...
You said, "The bible says not to welcome those who don't bring the gospel of Christ into your home". And my response is above.
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Well, John, I said that I would not force a girl who has been raped by her father to give birth to her sister - nice of you to bring that up in this thread! And nice of you to not include the part of the father raping his own daughter.
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The scenario of the rape is yours, as well the contradictory views...
Well, I included a reminder on my signature so that you don't have to bring this up in every thread that I'm on, even if the thread doesn't have to anything to do with the abortion issue...just to save you some typing...
quote:
Again, I thought we were supposed to spread the gospel to non-believers....please correct me if I'm wrong.
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What does the government's control of the border have to do with the cause of spreading the gospel and when did illegal aliens become some lost group in search of the promise land?
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Please explain how disorder is the key to spreading the gospel...
Please see above.
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Well, if it didn't say what it did, you and I probably would not be here, now would we?
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I believe my family was here long before the French gave the United States the statue... 
Um...were they here before any Europeans came over? Or are you American Indian?
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I mean, unless you want US to become a closed society...
quote:
Controlling the border doesn't equate to the United States becoming a closed society...
John
Telling people that they can work here, but then they have to return, even though they pay taxes is becoming closed...in fact, it's a bit hypocritical IMHO.
Peace and God bless,
PS My signature thing didn't work - I'll try again...
< Message edited by Lizahana -- 6/7/2008 8:05:36 PM >
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RE: The Issues - 6/7/2008 8:02:10 PM
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Lizahana
Posts: 1048
Joined: 4/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
Say, John - do you think it's ok for people to come and work here on the guest worker program - in jobs that Americans plainly do now want - but then they have to return back to their country?
Just wondering...
I have no issue with what is deemed lawful and if people come here and work and agree to the terms they are bound by them...
John
So, it's ok for them to come here and work, pay taxes we pay, but not ok for them to live here? See, I think this is very hypocritical, IMHO...
Peace and God bless,
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RE: The Issues - 6/7/2008 8:14:24 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4377
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
You said, "The bible says not to welcome those who don't bring the gospel of Christ into your home". And my response is above.
Yes I did...
2 John 1:9-10 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
quote:
Well, I included a reminder on my signature so that you don't have to bring this up in every thread that I'm on, even if the thread doesn't have to anything to do with the abortion issue...just to save you some typing...
You spoke of the treatment of people so I felt compelled to share some of your other thoughts on the matter as well...
quote:
Please see above.
I saw your irrational attempt to connect the control of illegal immigration to the spread of the gospel and responded...
quote:
Um...were they here before any Europeans came over? Or are you American Indian?
Nope, but they were here long before the French gave the United States the statue... Or did you think it was here from the start?
quote:
Telling people that they can work here, but then they have to return, even though they pay taxes is becoming closed...in fact, it's a bit hypocritical IMHO.
The facts are that people agree to terms and are bound by them... They are not forced to work here... You're simply reaching because you have nothing of substance to stand on...
John
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RE: The Issues - 6/7/2008 8:16:43 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4377
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
Say, John - do you think it's ok for people to come and work here on the guest worker program - in jobs that Americans plainly do now want - but then they have to return back to their country?
Just wondering...
I have no issue with what is deemed lawful and if people come here and work and agree to the terms they are bound by them...
John
So, it's ok for them to come here and work, pay taxes we pay, but not ok for them to live here? See, I think this is very hypocritical, IMHO...
Peace and God bless,
I think you need to review the subject you're referring to... You seem to have things mixed up... Do you know the difference between a work visa and someone breaking the law to enter the country and breaking a hose of others to remain here?
John
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RE: The Issues - 6/7/2008 8:52:00 PM
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Lizahana
Posts: 1048
Joined: 4/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
Say, John - do you think it's ok for people to come and work here on the guest worker program - in jobs that Americans plainly do now want - but then they have to return back to their country?
Just wondering...
I have no issue with what is deemed lawful and if people come here and work and agree to the terms they are bound by them...
John
So, it's ok for them to come here and work, pay taxes we pay, but not ok for them to live here? See, I think this is very hypocritical, IMHO...
Peace and God bless,
I think you need to review the subject you're referring to... You seem to have things mixed up... Do you know the difference between a work visa and someone breaking the law to enter the country and breaking a hose of others to remain here?
John
Well, John, I was just stating that I think it's hypocritical to make these people leave the country when they pay taxes - I was talking about the guest worker program - you know, where the people come here, work, pay taxes that you and I both pay, then get booted back home...so, not quite following you here...I was expressing an opinion about the guest worker program, which is what I initially asked you about.
Peace and God bless,
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RE: The Issues - 6/7/2008 9:08:48 PM
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Lizahana
Posts: 1048
Joined: 4/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
You said, "The bible says not to welcome those who don't bring the gospel of Christ into your home". And my response is above.
quote:
Yes I did...
2 John 1:9-10 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
Luke 6:27-36
[27] "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, [28] bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. [29] If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. [30] Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. [31] Do to others as you would have them do to you.
[32] "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. [33] And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. [34] And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. [35] But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. [36] Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
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Well, I included a reminder on my signature so that you don't have to bring this up in every thread that I'm on, even if the thread doesn't have to anything to do with the abortion issue...just to save you some typing...
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You spoke of the treatment of people so I felt compelled to share some of your other thoughts on the matter as well....
Well, I did include it on my signature - that way you don't have to bring it up each time, even when the discussion is not about abortion.
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Please see above.
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I saw your irrational attempt to connect the control of illegal immigration to the spread of the gospel and responded...
Not that you'll read what I say, but, initially, you said that you're not to allow people into your household that do not believe in The Word. And I responded by saying that I thought we were supposed to try and spread the word to non-believers.
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Um...were they here before any Europeans came over? Or are you American Indian?
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Nope, but they were here long before the French gave the United States the statue... Or did you think it was here from the start?
Well, our country was founded on welcoming people here who want freedom - even though we took the land from American Indians. I think we should at least extend the same -welcoming those who want freedom - to others, IMHO.
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Telling people that they can work here, but then they have to return, even though they pay taxes is becoming closed...in fact, it's a bit hypocritical IMHO.
quote:
The facts are that people agree to terms and are bound by them... They are not forced to work here... You're simply reaching because you have nothing of substance to stand on...
John
No, I was just saying that if they pay taxes here, they should be able to live here.
Peace and God bless,
< Message edited by Lizahana -- 6/7/2008 9:17:32 PM >
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RE: The Issues - 6/7/2008 9:13:45 PM
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saved9201
Posts: 728
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jeff_from_Kentucky
Julius, how can you not know what the job is? The job is to develop Iraq into a stable Democracy. That takes time. Remember, the colonies declared Independence from England in 1776 and didn't get a peace treaty signed until 1783. Then, it took another 5 years until 1788 to get a Constitution. That's 12 years of instability before our present form of government took shape and was put into place. 13 if you count the fact that George Washington didn't take office until April of 1789. Even then, things were not immediately stable. Iraq has only had 5 years to try to do what took us more than a dozen years to do. And we didn't have terrorists flooding across our borders trying to disrupt everything as they do.
This type of thing takes time but everybody today wants instant gratification. Real life doesn't work that way.
THE PRE-WAR MISSION WAS TO RID IRAQ OF WMD
Bush: “Our mission is clear in Iraq. Should we have to go in, our mission is very clear: disarmament.” [3/6/03]
AFTER THE WAR BEGAN, AND IT WAS DETERMINED SADDAM’S DOG MUST HAVE ATE THE WMD’S, THE MISSION EXPANDED
Bush: “Our cause is just, the security of the nations we serve and the peace of the world. And our mission is clear, to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, to end Saddam Hussein’s support for terrorism, and to free the Iraqi people.” [3/22/03]
Bush: “Our forces have been given a clear mission: to end a regime that threatened its neighbors and the world with weapons of mass destruction and to free a people that had suffered far too long.” [4/14/03]
THEN, WE GOT GOOD NEWS: THE MISSION WAS COMPLETE
Bush: “On Thursday, I visited the USS Abraham Lincoln, now headed home after the longest carrier deployment in recent history. I delivered good news to the men and women who fought in the cause of freedom: Their mission is complete, and major combat operations in Iraq have ended..” [5/3/03]
WELL, NOT REALLY ENDED.
Bush: “The United States and our allies will complete our mission in Iraq.” [7/30/03]
BUT WAIT! WE JUS DINT HEAR HIM RIGHT THE FIRST TIME.
Bush: “That has been our mission all along, to develop the conditions such that a free Iraq will emerge, run by the Iraqi citizens.” [11/4/03]
Bush: “We will see that Iraq is free and self-governing and democratic. We will accomplish our mission.”
[5/4/04]
YEAH! YEAH! THAT’S THE TICKET!
OH WAIT. I FORGOT ONE THING…
Bush: “And our mission is clear there, as well, and that is to train the Iraqis so they can do the fighting; make sure they can stand up to defend their freedoms, which they want to do.” [6/2/05]
OKAY. OKAY. I’M GONNA TELL YA, OKAY. WHAT THE REAL MISSION IS.
Bush: “We’re making progress toward the goal, which is, on the one hand, a political process moving forward in Iraq, and on the other hand, the Iraqis capable of defending themselves And we will — we will complete this mission for the sake of world peace.” [6/20/05]
YEAH. WORLD PEACE. CAN’T ARGUE WITH THAT.
Now you said the mission is what?
quote:
Julius, how can you not know what the job is?
Do I really have to answer that?
quote:
"The job is to develop Iraq into a stable Democracy”
Yeah, right. And world peace. And to save the whales. And to cure cancer...yada yada yada.
Oh and your example comparing our founding fathers to Bush. Well, those guys had a clear mission: Independence from England. Period. No, their mission wasn’t a “stable democracy”, that happened later on. But in my world, I celebrate July 4th, Independence Day, as the day my country was born. I don’t celebrate the day it became a “stable democracy”. You said it took some time for us to become a “stable democracy? When exactly did that happen? About 100 years after we gained our independence, we were engaged in a civil war. Some people would claim we’re still not a “stable democracy.” And who defines what’s stable and what’s not? I guess we need to stay in Iraq until we think it’s stable -there’s no threat of civil war, no state sponsored terrorism against people of other races, economic stability, no corruption in government, no anti-American groups, no one running for political office who went to the church of a crazy preacher for 20 years……stuff we had to go through before we became a “stable democracy.”
I wonder?
How did WE do it without an occupying force hanging around for 200 years until they “finished the job”?
- Julius
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