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RE: Advice on unmarried couple... - 6/4/2008 3:34:17 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 9954
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DarleneSchreiber
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
quote:
Now, here's the rub...I don't think they're married.
I am not sure this is any of your business--particularly when your entire suspicion is based on the following:
You said they have been talking to the pastor. I am sure their marital status or lack thereof has come up. If you cannot trust your pastor to deal with this matter (if one even exists), then you might need to look for another church 
Yes, Ms. Davis, you're absolutely correct...that particular issue is not my business and just a suspicion at this point. However, what is my business is how my elder board handles any situation, if it indeed exists. That's what we'll be watching carefully. If they're not courageous enough to stand up to openly, defiant, habitual sin, how can we trust their leadership? How can we trust they they'll be watching out for our welfare should we, ourselves, fall into some sort of willful disobedience?
And, please be sure to make a note when you choose to alter other people's posts.
I could be wrong but I do not believe your post was altered.
The first quote was a direct quote from the OP. The rest was part of the advice you ask for. She just said that you mentioned them talking to the pastor.(end of that sentence) then she went on with her advice. What she gave you credit for saying you did in fact say.
_____________________________
A friend gave me a report with Stats showing that 4,153,237 people got married last year. Now I don't want to start any trouble but I can't help but wonder. Shouldn't that be an even number?
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RE: Advice on unmarried couple... - 6/4/2008 3:37:20 PM
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DarleneSchreiber
Posts: 169
Joined: 5/22/2008
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quote:
Can't be having them heathens dirtying up the pews.
"Neither the sexually immoral nor idolators nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."--1 Corinthians 6:9-10, NIV
Looks like this couple will have plenty of Christians to fellowship with... but not at your church because your church doesn't have any of these abominators.  You and RC must go to the same church: First Church of the Pure as Driven Snow. 
I'm surprised and disappointed at you, Cow. You, of all people, left of verse 11: "And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of theLord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." (NKJV)
I think Paul was being polite by saying "some" instead of "all". We all fit into one of those categories before we came to know the saving grace of God. After that, God no longer sees us as any of those, but saints covered by the blood of Jesus. Only saints inherit the kingdom of God.
You know that! Why are you playing the "world's" game?
Anyway, and back on task, don't forget this either: Matthew 7:13-14 (NKJV): "Enter by the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."
The life Christ has called us to is hard and unpopular and sticky if we live it according to his standards. (EDIT note...don't know why this thing starred out a word that means "thorny", but I changed it.)
< Message edited by DarleneSchreiber -- 6/4/2008 3:48:28 PM >
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RE: Advice on unmarried couple... - 6/4/2008 3:41:26 PM
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DarleneSchreiber
Posts: 169
Joined: 5/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
quote:
ORIGINAL: DarleneSchreiber
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
quote:
Now, here's the rub...I don't think they're married.
I am not sure this is any of your business--particularly when your entire suspicion is based on the following:
You said they have been talking to the pastor. I am sure their marital status or lack thereof has come up. If you cannot trust your pastor to deal with this matter (if one even exists), then you might need to look for another church
Yes, Ms. Davis, you're absolutely correct...that particular issue is not my business and just a suspicion at this point. However, what is my business is how my elder board handles any situation, if it indeed exists. That's what we'll be watching carefully. If they're not courageous enough to stand up to openly, defiant, habitual sin, how can we trust their leadership? How can we trust they they'll be watching out for our welfare should we, ourselves, fall into some sort of willful disobedience?
And, please be sure to make a note when you choose to alter other people's posts.
I could be wrong but I do not believe your post was altered.
The first quote was a direct quote from the OP. The rest was part of the advice you ask for. She just said that you mentioned them talking to the pastor.(end of that sentence) then she went on with her advice. What she gave you credit for saying you did in fact say.
My "I" was not bolded in the original OP. That was done by someone other than myself to put the emphasis on ME. And that's okay...not a big deal, but it should, in all politeness, be mentioned when it's done. I am a bit of a stickler for such things.
And, yes, I do appreciate the advice for which I asked. It's all going into the pot and being stirred and cooked! 
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RE: Advice on unmarried couple... - 6/4/2008 3:49:21 PM
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DarleneSchreiber
Posts: 169
Joined: 5/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
"Purity" is one of the hallmarks of a cult.
What? 1 Timothy 4:12, Proverbs 22:11, 1 John 3:3...just to name a few. Too cultish?
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RE: Advice on unmarried couple... - 6/4/2008 5:07:14 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 962
Joined: 8/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
"Purity" is one of the hallmarks of a cult.
No, it is something commanded by God:
Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
II Corinthains 6:3-6 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed: [4] But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, [5] In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; [6] By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned
I Timothy 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.
I John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
We are to strive for personal purity and purity and holiness as a body since the church is the body of Christ. If you feel this is not scriptural, please tell me how you arrive at your conclusion.
Or, have you fallen for the lie of the "hippy Jesus," where anything is accepted and the love shown people is not anywhere close to love as it is revealed in scripture? I honestly mean you no offense, but the comments you make - even when you used scripture - do not make sense.
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: Advice on unmarried couple... - 6/4/2008 6:15:30 PM
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Doc65
Posts: 277
Joined: 1/11/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
"Purity" is one of the hallmarks of a cult.
No, it is something commanded by God:
Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
II Corinthains 6:3-6 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed: [4] But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, [5] In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; [6] By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned
I Timothy 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.
I John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
We are to strive for personal purity and purity and holiness as a body since the church is the body of Christ. If you feel this is not scriptural, please tell me how you arrive at your conclusion.
Or, have you fallen for the lie of the "hippy Jesus," where anything is accepted and the love shown people is not anywhere close to love as it is revealed in scripture? I honestly mean you no offense, but the comments you make - even when you used scripture - do not make sense.
And didn't Christ say something about if any of you is without sin, let him be the first to cast a stone, or has this ben forgotten. No one, absolutely no one, is truly pure, wholly holy and absolutely sinless this side of heaven. If the church was made of only saints, there would be no need for the church - I think something about Jesus coming to save sinners and not the righteous comes into play here as well - the church is filled with sinner/saints...
_____________________________
"The Sovereign Lord is my strength; He makes my feet like the feet of a deer, He enables me to go on the heights." Hab. 3:19
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RE: Advice on unmarried couple... - 6/4/2008 6:28:19 PM
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Kath
Posts: 17142
Joined: 2/28/2005
Status: offline
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Doc65
You need to learn how to do quotes, you've made it look like cow said the things that BroShane said. To do a quote just click the word quote in the post you want to reference, the system will insert it properly.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doc65
And didn't Christ say something about if any of you is without sin, let him be the first to cast a stone, or has this ben forgotten. No one, absolutely no one, is truly pure, wholly holy and absolutely sinless this side of heaven. If the church was made of only saints, there would be no need for the church - I think something about Jesus coming to save sinners and not the righteous comes into play here as well - the church is filled with sinner/saints...
so are you saying that sexual sin gets a free pass because no one is without sin?
No one is saying they cannot attend church, but if a couple is unmarried and living together then they ought not be allowed membership.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
... and many do not wear rings (I do not wear a ring of any sort), but I am surely married for 45 years and counting.
my husband doesn't even have a ring because he's an electrician and I just never wear mine because I don't like wearing jewelry.
< Message edited by Kath -- 6/4/2008 6:35:56 PM >
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RE: Advice on unmarried couple... - 6/4/2008 6:47:43 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 962
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doc65
And didn't Christ say something about if any of you is without sin, let him be the first to cast a stone, or has this ben forgotten.
No, but what has been forgotten is the context in which Christ said it. There were Pharisees who had caught a woman in adultery and brought her to Christ to see if He would command her to be stoned, as the law required. What the Pharisees neglected to do was bring the man who was with her, which was also commanded in the law. So, not only had she sinned, but they had as well for not keeping the same law they tried to accuse her with. That's why Jesus told them that the one who was without sin should cast the first stone.
People use this out of context and wrongly so often.
quote:
No one, absolutely no one, is truly pure, wholly holy and absolutely sinless this side of heaven.
There also is a big difference between those who strive to be holy because God is holy, which we have been commanded to do, and those who live in open and unrepentant sin - which is rebellion.
quote:
If the church was made of only saints, there would be no need for the church - I think something about Jesus coming to save sinners and not the righteous comes into play here as well - the church is filled with sinner/saints...
The local church is a gathering of the local body of Christ - those not born again are not part of the body. Do we welcome them? Yes. Will we preach the gospel to them? Yes. Are they a part of us? No - they can't be because they have not received the adoption.
I feel you have been duped, another victim of the hippy Jesus hype.
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: Advice on unmarried couple... - 6/4/2008 7:30:22 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 11698
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DarleneSchreiber
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
quote:
ORIGINAL: DarleneSchreiber
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
quote:
Now, here's the rub...I don't think they're married.
I am not sure this is any of your business--particularly when your entire suspicion is based on the following:
You said they have been talking to the pastor. I am sure their marital status or lack thereof has come up. If you cannot trust your pastor to deal with this matter (if one even exists), then you might need to look for another church
Yes, Ms. Davis, you're absolutely correct...that particular issue is not my business and just a suspicion at this point. However, what is my business is how my elder board handles any situation, if it indeed exists. That's what we'll be watching carefully. If they're not courageous enough to stand up to openly, defiant, habitual sin, how can we trust their leadership? How can we trust they they'll be watching out for our welfare should we, ourselves, fall into some sort of willful disobedience?
And, please be sure to make a note when you choose to alter other people's posts.
I could be wrong but I do not believe your post was altered.
The first quote was a direct quote from the OP. The rest was part of the advice you ask for. She just said that you mentioned them talking to the pastor.(end of that sentence) then she went on with her advice. What she gave you credit for saying you did in fact say.
My "I" was not bolded in the original OP. That was done by someone other than myself to put the emphasis on ME. And that's okay...not a big deal, but it should, in all politeness, be mentioned when it's done. I am a bit of a stickler for such things.
And, yes, I do appreciate the advice for which I asked. It's all going into the pot and being stirred and cooked!
I emboldened the "I" because that was what I was responding to, not to make it look as if your post was altered.
It is fairly common on this board to bold the part of the quote to which you are responding. It was not done to offend you.
My point remains that your whole problem with this couple is what you think, and you are >< this close to wanting to remove them from your church based on nothing.
There is no evidence of impropriety here.
The things that you are worried about are customs, and not everyone shares the same customs.
In today's world--Christian or non--neither last names not wedding rings are evidence of marriage. In fact, I know several unmarried people who wear gold bands on their left ring fingers to keep people from inquiring about their status. Anyone can buy a wedding ring and put it on the appropriate finger.
That is why I recommend you leave this to your pastor.
Can you not trust your pastor to do the right thing?
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Advice on unmarried couple... - 6/4/2008 8:59:18 PM
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DarleneSchreiber
Posts: 169
Joined: 5/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
I emboldened the "I" because that was what I was responding to, not to make it look as if your post was altered.
It is fairly common on this board to bold the part of the quote to which you are responding. It was not done to offend you.
That's fine and I'm not offended. I just like to say something along the lines of "emphasis" or "bolding added". Just picky, I guess.
quote:
My point remains that your whole problem with this couple is what you think, and you are >< this close to wanting to remove them from your church based on nothing.
There is no evidence of impropriety here.
The things that you are worried about are customs, and not everyone shares the same customs.
In today's world--Christian or non--neither last names not wedding rings are evidence of marriage. In fact, I know several unmarried people who wear gold bands on their left ring fingers to keep people from inquiring about their status. Anyone can buy a wedding ring and put it on the appropriate finger.
That is why I recommend you leave this to your pastor.
Can you not trust your pastor to do the right thing?
Again...you're correct. There is no solid evidence of impropriety yet...just circumstantial. At this point, I'm just borrowing trouble...granted. And whether or not to wear wedding rings is not the issue. I'm not getting into that.
As for trusting our pastor, we're still getting to know him and the other members of our board. Also, the church itself is only two and a half years old, so a lot is still being worked through. Here's why I'm concerned about what the board will do to start with: my husband and I have both been divorced previously. About four months ago, we were asked to begin and coordinate the major ministry of our church...it's already pretty much become synonomous with out little band of believers! The board members knew we are a "remarriage" but they NEVER asked us about the stories behind our divorces. I think that is rather pertinent info if you are going to have people leading ministries. Now, my husband and I know what happened and we know that our situations fit within guidelines of the Bible...but they didn't know that and didn't ask.
So I'm a little concerned.
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RE: Advice on unmarried couple... - 6/4/2008 9:58:59 PM
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CherishedbyGod
Posts: 2345
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
My point remains that your whole problem with this couple is what you think, and you are >< this close to wanting to remove them from your church based on nothing.
There is no evidence of impropriety here.
The things that you are worried about are customs, and not everyone shares the same customs.
In today's world--Christian or non--neither last names not wedding rings are evidence of marriage. In fact, I know several unmarried people who wear gold bands on their left ring fingers to keep people from inquiring about their status. Anyone can buy a wedding ring and put it on the appropriate finger.
That is why I recommend you leave this to your pastor.
Can you not trust your pastor to do the right thing?
Darlene,
I am glad I read your last post before I respond because I was pretty angry until I read it.
I agree with Ps103. In California, a married couple can have different last names and still be married. Not having on a wedding ring does not indicate anything.
I am concerned that you are assuming the worst about this couple! And not only assuming the worst but "sin-sniffing".
You are on dangerous grounds here. If you were to take your (unfounded) concerns to others in the congregation or even the pastor, with no proof you could be destroying individual's reputations!
Do you know, according to scripture, that God places meddling in other's affairs in the same arena as being a thief or murderer?
I have had others meddle in my affairs for years, my reputation has been destroyed because of false accusations. The pain and agony from it all will probably never be entirely healed.
Don't. Don't be one to pull down a brother or sister in Christ! You have no evidence! I am saddened greatly to see you pursuing it in the way you are. If you only knew the pain...If you only knew the pain....of having your reputation destroyed by meddlers.
Cherished..
_____________________________
~I would love for you to come and learn about Jesus of Nazareth with me in the Writer's Roundtable Folder~
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RE: Advice on unmarried couple... - 6/4/2008 10:04:23 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 11698
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
Status: offline
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quote:
There is no solid evidence of impropriety yet...just circumstantial.
Not even that.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Advice on unmarried couple... - 6/4/2008 10:35:04 PM
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Doc65
Posts: 277
Joined: 1/11/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
I feel you have been duped, another victim of the hippy Jesus hype.
Begging your pardon, but what I am seeing here, short of evidence that the couple in question is actually living in sin, that they are being judged. And to make a blanket statement such as that, I believe that you are most than unfairly judging me. The comment that was posted earlier:
quote:
If need be. Purity is more important than size.
Smacks of the same pharisaical and self-righteous folks who fail to see the plank in their own eyes. And, no, I am not saying that flagrant sinners should be allowed full communion and fellowship but how much dirt digging does one do, how much finger pointing does one make until the fingers point back at themselves?
Ps103's comment
quote:
My point remains that your whole problem with this couple is what you think, and you are >< this close to wanting to remove them from your church based on nothing.
There is no evidence of impropriety here.
and Cherished's:
quote:
I am concerned that you are assuming the worst about this couple! And not only assuming the worst but "sin-sniffing".
You are on dangerous grounds here. If you were to take your (unfounded) concerns to others in the congregation or even the pastor, with no proof you could be destroying individual's reputations!
are spot on. To say that I am misusing or using Christ's own words out of context would seem to imply that you are actually using it out of context to do exactly what the Pharisees were trying to do to our Savior...and no, if they are living in unrepentant sin, they need to be pointed to the error of their ways, but in love, not in spite, and certainly not without remembering that we ourselves are sinners in need of forgiveness. Finally, if they are living together for the sake of financial reasons and there is no "hanky-panky" going on, how can they be accused of adultery or living in sin? There are several individuals that we know of who are in their late 60's/early 70's who maintain a household together, not for physical relations but simply for the fact that it is too expensive to live individually.
Regardless, do not cast stones, either at them or myself, until the whole story is known and the truly telling part of this whole miserable affair is noted by the OP when she states:
quote:
They've also spent a lot of time talking, not only to us and other members, but also the pastor.
If there is sin here, is there not enough confidence in the undershepherd of the congregation that he will steer this couple in the right direction or is it the place of the members to stir up the pot when there seems to be no need to do so?
< Message edited by Doc65 -- 6/4/2008 10:45:33 PM >
_____________________________
"The Sovereign Lord is my strength; He makes my feet like the feet of a deer, He enables me to go on the heights." Hab. 3:19
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RE: Advice on unmarried couple... - 6/4/2008 11:20:02 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doc65
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
"Purity" is one of the hallmarks of a cult.
No, it is something commanded by God:
Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
II Corinthains 6:3-6 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed: [4] But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, [5] In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; [6] By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned
I Timothy 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.
I John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
We are to strive for personal purity and purity and holiness as a body since the church is the body of Christ. If you feel this is not scriptural, please tell me how you arrive at your conclusion.
Or, have you fallen for the lie of the "hippy Jesus," where anything is accepted and the love shown people is not anywhere close to love as it is revealed in scripture? I honestly mean you no offense, but the comments you make - even when you used scripture - do not make sense.
And didn't Christ say something about if any of you is without sin, let him be the first to cast a stone, or has this ben forgotten. No one, absolutely no one, is truly pure, wholly holy and absolutely sinless this side of heaven. If the church was made of only saints, there would be no need for the church - I think something about Jesus coming to save sinners and not the righteous comes into play here as well - the church is filled with sinner/saints...
1 Corinthians 5
9. I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10. Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13. But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
The above is pretty clear what to do with those in the church who don't repent of their ways... Remove them...
John
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RE: Advice on unmarried couple... - 6/4/2008 11:24:21 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
No, but what has been forgotten is the context in which Christ said it. There were Pharisees who had caught a woman in adultery and brought her to Christ to see if He would command her to be stoned, as the law required. What the Pharisees neglected to do was bring the man who was with her, which was also commanded in the law. So, not only had she sinned, but they had as well for not keeping the same law they tried to accuse her with. That's why Jesus told them that the one who was without sin should cast the first stone.
As well we are told why they brought her in the first place...
John 8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
The last thing on their mind was a righteous judgment of the woman...
John
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RE: Advice on unmarried couple... - 6/5/2008 12:27:24 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3646
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
Status: offline
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While I recognize that many churches welcome those who continue in deliberate, open sin into their membership, I am wholly grateful to G-d that there are congregations that will not do this. Sure, some of us see sin in ourselves, and others of us don't, but in my opinion, neither set, as leaders of their congregations, should welcome open, deliberate, repetative sin into their membership.
The purpose of recognizing sin is to repent, not coddle it!
I have a problem of a heavy right foot when I drive. Just because I am forgiven, should I just pass that off as an "Oh, well -- I'm only human" or should I work against that sin? If I just let it go, I endanger everyone on the street (drivers, passengers, and pedestrians), as well as myself and my ability to have insurance. It is my job, then, to do whatever I must to keep that problem tethered. Furthermore, if I drive about in the parking lot of my place of worship in such a way as to endanger the people and property, my place of worship has a responsibility to relieve me of my right to be there, because I am dangerous to everyone!
In the same way, open adultery within the membership endangers everyone and tells the congregation that open, repeated, deliberate sin is acceptable in that congregation.
Thank G-d, where I attend it is unacceptable in either the membership or the continued attenders. Furthermore, the church I work for will not allow it in the membership either.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Advice on unmarried couple... - 6/5/2008 12:42:28 AM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 962
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doc65
Begging your pardon, but what I am seeing here, short of evidence that the couple in question is actually living in sin, that they are being judged. And to make a blanket statement such as that, I believe that you are most than unfairly judging me. The comment that was posted earlier:
They are not being judged by me. I have said, along with others, that no one should jump to conclusions and things should be done (or not) only when the situation is known. I am judging your remarks, not you. For all I know you are a very pleasant person and quite sincere. Just because I did not agree with what you said does not mean I think you are a bad person. I simply believe your comments do not line up with scripture.
quote:
Smacks of the same pharisaical and self-righteous folks who fail to see the plank in their own eyes. And, no, I am not saying that flagrant sinners should be allowed full communion and fellowship but how much dirt digging does one do, how much finger pointing does one make until the fingers point back at themselves?
And this is exactly why I made that statement. On the one hand you say flagrant sinners should be allowed full communion and fellowship, yet your previous statement calls that same thing Pharisaical. I have never said I was sinless or better than anyone. I do not know why you are acting as though I have.
I am also not referring to "dirt digging." If one wishes to join a church, I believe knowing these things are important.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
As well we are told why they brought her in the first place...
John 8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
The last thing on their mind was a righteous judgment of the woman...
John
So very true.
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: Advice on unmarried couple... - 6/5/2008 6:28:03 AM
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Doc65
Posts: 277
Joined: 1/11/2008
Status: offline
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My point is, as I stated, that short of knowing the full story of this couple, no one should judge them. They have been in conversation with the OP's pastor and what is truly appalling is that everyone has been, until a few recent posts, more than willing to jump on them with both feet. And Bro_Shane, with all due respects, you have prejudged in your comment regarding my being duped. If there is one thing I have learned in both theoretical and practical ministry, is that one should never be quick to judge and make accusations about anyone - I have seen far, far too many folks driven out of the church due to unfounded rumors, innuendo and finger-pointing; so many people are willing to be "chapel thugs" and act as being "uber-righteous" only to forget that no one is tighteous, not even one...BTW, I wasn't referring you to "dirt-digging" but was intending to reference Cherished's "sin-sniffing" comment. Gotta love technology...
Honestly, I think that we're on the same page, it's just that semantics are failing the twain to meet...
Blessings on your day...
_____________________________
"The Sovereign Lord is my strength; He makes my feet like the feet of a deer, He enables me to go on the heights." Hab. 3:19
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RE: Advice on unmarried couple... - 6/5/2008 7:51:41 AM
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reillan
Posts: 40
Joined: 5/28/2008
Status: offline
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In an ideal church, based on what I believe:
Someone who struggles because of sin - ie, someone who wants to stop and become closer to the Lord but isn't strong enough - would feel welcomed by the congregation to share their problem and receive the strength of the church in overcoming it. Everyone works together to overcome this one sin. Such a person would be welcome to the membership because he or she knows what's right and wants desperately to do it, but is unable without the help of the church.
Someone who chooses to live in sin - ie, someone who knows what's right and wrong and has no desire to change it - that person doesn't need the strength of the church in overcoming it, but does need the church to show him or her why that sin is so dangerous. This is where two or three gather together to approach the person, explain the nature of the sin, and seek for that person to change their ways. If that person does not, then it is appropriate for the church to exclude the person from membership.
*However* - in any such case, if it's not a clear-cut case, the members of the church who reproach this person need to be aware that perhaps the person has strong Biblical reasons for continuing in that activity. For instance, maybe the church is very anti-tattoo (since we were just talking about that in another thread), and this person is a tattoo artist. It's possible the artist might have a good argument as to why tattooing is fine. The members need to be open and listen to the argument, then meet together separately to discuss its merits and, most importantly, pray for guidance, then make a decision on whether to allow it or not.
edit 1: Someone who doesn't know that they're sinning would need to be approached and explained that it is a sin and why, and given time to decide whether they are the first type of person, or the second.
edit 2: How does this apply to the present case? I state the whole thing so that the distinction is clear between how Christians should act toward those who are simply weak and how we should act toward those who are choosing to act inappropriately. Both are, IMO, the most loving and accepting approaches toward this whole conundrum. But, as you can probably see, the couple living together, if they are sleeping together, would most likely fall into category 2 and thus need to be prevented from membership. Boy, that was a long way to get to my point... :)
< Message edited by reillan -- 6/5/2008 7:59:59 AM >
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RE: Advice on unmarried couple... - 6/5/2008 8:08:53 AM
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DarleneSchreiber
Posts: 169
Joined: 5/22/2008
Status: offline
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Okay...let me see if I can make this abundantly clear...and I'll use small words...
*I don't know the marital status of this couple.
*I understand that you can't judge by the presence or absence of rings.
*I further understand that the wife may not always take the last name of the husband.
*This couple may not even want to join our church.
*I have no idea what our elder board would do if they are not married but wish to join.
Okay...did I leave anything out?
How about this?
*I have not gone to anyone with this concern except my husband, a close friend in another state who knows none of the people involved and you wise people here. I would not dream of sticking my nose into a situation that doesn't even exist! Nor would I ever, ever take unfounded concerns to anyone that would know the people involved.
*I started this thread to gather wisdom so I could find my own footing just in case a particular scenario should take place. I do not want to be caught unawares should this become a reality. I want to know where God would have me stand on the issue and why.
I will engage in none of the following:
*uber-righteousness
*sin-sniffing
*dirt-digging
*finger-pointing
*stone-casting
*speck-pointing
*affair-meddling
Now understand this...I am not assuming the worst about this couple. I simply have never before encountered a scenario such as has been described. Therefore, I'm trying to find out what is right and wrong and why. I am trying to be pro-active. Also, we are fairly new in this congregation and have not had the opportunity to see how the elder board handles things, other than our own experience (see above post #35).
I'm obviously getting extremely frustrated. It seems this little desire of mine to gain the wisdom of brothers and sisters has taken on a different direction. It's given some a platform to be pious and do a bit of stone throwing. This is not a discussion about name and rings. It was intended to be a discussion about the purity of the Church...thankfully, some of you got that. And it's all been based on a "what if" scenario. I have very few of the facts yet...I simply wanted to know what the biblical stance would be should such a situation arise.
I don't know how many times I've said that nor how much more plainly I could have stated it.
Anyway, now my husband and I are in agreement about what we would do. That's what matters.
Edit: reillan, I was typing while you posted. I think you're spot-on! Thank you for some "useful" advice!
< Message edited by DarleneSchreiber -- 6/5/2008 8:17:18 AM >
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RE: Advice on unmarried couple... - 6/5/2008 9:00:05 AM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 962
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doc65
My point is, as I stated, that short of knowing the full story of this couple, no one should judge them. They have been in conversation with the OP's pastor and what is truly appalling is that everyone has been, until a few recent posts, more than willing to jump on them with both feet. And Bro_Shane, with all due respects, you have prejudged in your comment regarding my being duped. If there is one thing I have learned in both theoretical and practical ministry, is that one should never be quick to judge and make accusations about anyone - I have seen far, far too many folks driven out of the church due to unfounded rumors, innuendo and finger-pointing; so many people are willing to be "chapel thugs" and act as being "uber-righteous" only to forget that no one is tighteous, not even one...BTW, I wasn't referring you to "dirt-digging" but was intending to reference Cherished's "sin-sniffing" comment. Gotta love technology...
Honestly, I think that we're on the same page, it's just that semantics are failing the twain to meet...
Blessings on your day...
I believe you are more than likely correct. If we were ale to speak face to face, and do with out the delays and intrusions of technology, we probably would have cleared up our positions (finding we pretty much agree) and moved on.
I pray your day is blessed as well.
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: Advice on unmarried couple... - 6/5/2008 10:28:54 AM
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landabee
Posts: 2852
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Central Florida
Status: offline
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Okay......
I read the whole thread.
Now, I'd like to try to give a gracious post.
I'm not sure how close one can come to gossip without it it being gossip.
If nosiness got the best of me, I suppose I would just ask the lady "How long have you been married? You seem to have such a nice family."
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If I was that nosy.
Prayer for discernment is a good thing.
And if I just couldn't keep my nosiness in check... I'd speak with the pastor.
He'd either thank me for the heads up and investigate himself, or excuse me from having to worry about it and request me to keep my circumstantial evidence to myself. Or both.
A simple straight forward question can avoid speculation.
BTW: I wear a ring on my "ring" finger. I'm not married.
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"Sound theology discourages ignorance instead of promoting it." ~ CourdeLeon
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